From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #87 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, October 2 2000 Volume 03 : Number 087 In this issue: - Re: Caspar Brotzmann question RE: Marisa Monte sax/drum duos in defense of ringo (getting long) Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund Re: sax/drum duos RE: drummers Ringo & "genius" RE: Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund Re: Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund Re: Le Quan Ninh tour dates Re:...and organs Re: Re:...and organs beatles....no zorn content. sorry for the unrelated post. muslimgauze Re: MASADA in Brussels RE: Ringo/Beatles Larry Young was: Re:...and organs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:00:29 EDT From: Brennansf@aol.com Subject: Re: Caspar Brotzmann question Ryan wrote: <> I have some problems with the bass playing on Mute Massaker too--although a good friend of mine in Berlin did it. I find it to be pretty near invisible in the mix. I've come tot he conclusion that playing bass behind Brotzmann must be one of the most thankless--and maybe pointless--roles in music. I mean, whad're'ya supposed to do there except thump along. Especially on a record like Mute Massaker which was near completely improvised in the studio. You need to be a remarkable bass player to add your two cents, and unfortunately Otto's actually a guitarist. I'm waiting for the day CAspar records a record that's ENTIRELY solo. As for Koksofen: Like I mentioned, I just got that CD. I'll be listening to it more in the coming weeks. Part of the thing with it was, it didn't seem to be nearly as in your face as some of CAspar's other records. More moody, even ambient in places. There was one place, near the end I think, where he was coaxing fairly quiet (for him) sounds out of his instrument that sounded like the crashing of electric waves on a metal beach. Jerry B. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:02:38 -0300 From: Linares Hugo Subject: RE: Marisa Monte As far as I'm concerned, the recording is great and well worth listening to. Just my 2 pesos from "Mercosur" Hugo Linares > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Todd Bramy [SMTP:tbramy@oz.net] > Enviado el: Lunes 2 de Octubre de 2000 3:45 PM > Para: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > Asunto: Marisa Monte > > Brazillian singer/guitarist Marisa Monte has employed the talents of a few > of our buddies on her three previous albums. Her brand new one (her > fourth), is called "Memories, Chronicles and Declarations of Love" and is > out on Metro Blue records. Produced my Arto Lindsey, there are a few names > of note in the credits: Melvin Gibbs, Marc Ribot, Greg Cohen and Joey > Baron. Thought you might like to know. > > > > > == todd == > > Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:06:56 EDT From: Brennansf@aol.com Subject: sax/drum duos When I was living in Germany, I heard a fairly longish duel, maybe ten, fifteen minutes long, between Coltrane and Elvin, just the two of 'em, on the radio. I believe it was recorded live somewhere. It was really incredible, but I've never been able to figure out when it was recorded or if it's ever been released. Any one out there have any ideas? jb - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 15:20:10 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: in defense of ringo (getting long) i've just realized that while i've been writing jerzy about 60s pop one-on-one, his responses have been going out to the list. now i doubt that any of you are really keeping score at home, but here's my msg back to ol' jerz about giving ringo a chance. (damn, i'm gonna get roasted for the tyner comment tho) >>> >Ringo was the soft underbelly of group. (j said) well, yes, but y'gotta realize that all you're saying is that he was a talent among geniuses. i would give john, paul and george that honorific, and it's no discredit to ringo to say that he's not quite. ringo, im(not so)ho, is something like mccoy in the coltrane quartet, altho i like ringo far more. the coltrane quartet was such a perfect ensemble that i wouldn't want to alter it, even if there were better players around. the beatles for much of their quite short career propelled each other and worked as a unit. ringo was obviously a big part of that sensibility. i don't think it was just a gift to let ringo sing 'that boy.' i imagine he inspired it, if not through actual events then through his personality. same with 'yellow submarine.' but for drumming, it's more the solid foundation laid under whatever the other three wanted to throw that is to be appreciated. 'tomorrow never knows' is probably the obvious example, but the regulated flurry on earlier songs, i dunno, like 'i wanna hold your hand,' define the sound. it's not the way another drummer woulda done it. and on the solo yoko stuff, like yoko ono/plastic ono band, his chops are surprising. like the other three, he was stretching out as the 60s wore on. also, it's worth noting that ringo holds the record for most consecutive years with a top 10 single (group or solo). in 1970-72, while the other three released pointedly backbiting records (to varying degrees) without charting singles, ringo was the success. granted those aren't great records, but he's the one that rose above and carried on the popularity that i'm sure fans wanted (tho i was not yet 5). prince, i believe, is #2. listen to your fave beatle songs and try and think who you'd rather have behind the kit. watts? bonham? moon? nope. he was great because he was a considerable part of making some really great records, dig? >>> oh yeah, and, sigmund, who said: but pop(ular) music is designed, performed, and packaged to appeal to the largest amount of people and sell the largest number of units...while that does take a certain amount of skill (not that much), it's more about advertising, trend-mongering, and the cult of personality than musicianship. so, maybe when we talk about pop drummers as geniuses, we should really be talking about their agents or their label's advertising executives--those are the real geniuses of the radio-friendly commodity game well, i was like 3 when they broke up (although i do remember john chancellor announcing it), so i'm not speaking firsthand, but my impression is that they truly were breaking ground, in a way perhaps not possible today. i think they were pretty much calling the shots and, i don't think, pandering to any thoughts of marketability (unless it's the marketing to expanded, acid-drenched minds). what you say is surely true today, but i think that's a byproduct of the huge phenomena the beatles created, rather than the other way around. anyway, mess tho it was, the beatles were (more or less) their own label and ad execs, at least at the end. correct me if i'm wrong. kg np: kalaparusha maurice mcintyre - forces and feelings - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:20:21 +0200 From: "Jerzy Matysiakiewicz" Subject: Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund | oh yeah, and | THE BEATLES WERE BORING (ARE EVEN MORE BORING NOW) | THE BEATLES WERE OVERRATED (ARE OVERRATED) | THE BEATLES DIDN'T INVENT THE GODDAMN SITAR | NO ONE FRIGGIN CARES WHO THE WALRUS WAS (hopefully) | THE BEATLES WROTE GOOD POP SONGS | GOOD *POP* SONGS | and I don't want to impose a high/low-brow hierarchy | here, High/low-brow hierarchy is now dead and gone . The time and the people's memory is the highest judge. Who knows what kinda music and records will be appreciate by the offsprings of our offsprings. Kagel or rather the Beatles /or Monkees maybe/. Berio or perhaps Sinatra. Lutoslawski or Presley Which movies - boring-high-brow Antonioni, or rather long-time-denied-low-brow Leone. I really dunno :(( but I deeply disagree with your "Five Thesis' against Beatles". Jerzy - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 21:30:52 +0200 From: patRice Subject: Re: sax/drum duos Brennansf@aol.com wrote: > > When I was living in Germany, I heard a fairly longish duel, maybe ten, > fifteen minutes long, between Coltrane and Elvin, just the two of 'em, on the > radio. I believe it was recorded live somewhere. It was really incredible, > but I've never been able to figure out when it was recorded or if it's ever > been released. Any one out there have any ideas? > hi there! if memory serves right, there is a coltrane/jones duo piece entitled "vigil" on the grp cd "transition"; it's 9'41" long, recorded in 1965 (June 16). patRice nr: samuel; interviews with messiaen np: the best of bbc tv themes - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:41:20 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Taylor Tierney Subject: RE: drummers Ringo & "genius" The way we're using the word "genius" here strikes me as being a tad bizarre. If you look outside of the art world, "genius" is usually used to denote someone who is able to perform complex mental tasks with unusual skill and speed. Ringo may be an "innovator", but according to this definition I would argue that he's not a "genius". In fact, I would limit "genius" to one or two people per decade, but that's me. I'm curious; using my definition, who would you guys call a modern musical "genius"? - --Adam Tierney (Sorry about all the parentheses, I find that annoying myself) - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:41:53 -0300 From: Linares Hugo Subject: RE: Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund I do agree that The Beatles were/are/will be overrated. They wrote good pop songs, but that doesn't make things clear. I do prefer their songs played/destroyed by other artists, but it's just an opinion. Probably the Five Thesis is not wrong at all, but it's a good point to be discussed. Hugo Linares. > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Jerzy Matysiakiewicz [SMTP:jerzym@dom.zabrze.pl] > Enviado el: Lunes 2 de Octubre de 2000 4:20 PM > Para: zorn lista > Asunto: Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund > > > | oh yeah, and > | THE BEATLES WERE BORING (ARE EVEN MORE BORING NOW) > | THE BEATLES WERE OVERRATED (ARE OVERRATED) > | THE BEATLES DIDN'T INVENT THE GODDAMN SITAR > | NO ONE FRIGGIN CARES WHO THE WALRUS WAS (hopefully) > | THE BEATLES WROTE GOOD POP SONGS > | GOOD *POP* SONGS > | and I don't want to impose a high/low-brow hierarchy > | here, > > High/low-brow hierarchy is now dead and gone . > The time and the people's memory is the highest judge. > Who knows what kinda music and records will be appreciate by the > offsprings > of our offsprings. > Kagel or rather the Beatles /or Monkees maybe/. > Berio or perhaps Sinatra. > Lutoslawski or Presley > Which movies - boring-high-brow Antonioni, or rather > long-time-denied-low-brow Leone. > I really dunno :(( > but I deeply disagree with your "Five Thesis' against Beatles". > > Jerzy > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:58:56 +0200 From: "Jerzy Matysiakiewicz" Subject: Re: Five Thesis Against Beatles according to Sigmund From: "Linares Hugo" >. I do prefer | their songs played/destroyed by other artists, but it's just an opinion. | Long live de/con/struction made by Laibach on "Let it Be" but down with Westbrook's manipulations on "Off Abbey Road". ole-low-brow-Jerzy - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 16:16:15 +0000 From: Rick Lopez Subject: Re: Le Quan Ninh tour dates on 10/2/00 2:38 PM, Whit Schonbein at whit@twinearth.wustl.edu wrote: > jon abbey tells us: > >> 25 nov : Madison WI (Erie Art Museum) > > While he could be playing in Madison, and there is a State Street in > madison, the Erie Art Museum is in Erie Pensylvania, (411 State Street), > unless there is another Erie Art Museum also on a State Street except in > Madison. Not that the Erie Art Museum knows of... Rick Lopez, in Erie PA, who is attached to it at the wrists and elbows. - ---------- Sessionographies: CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE. Discographies: COURVOISIER; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; WORKMAN. - --Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things-- Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL-- ETC., at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k UPDATE *June 25*, 2000: Vids, a few CDs, baseball books, misc. ***Very Various For Sale: *** http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? : http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE.html - - ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 2000 20:24:10 -0000 From: "Tim Keenliside" Subject: Re:...and organs >Tell me please, who in your opinion was the best organ player in the rock >realm between 67-72. Keith Emerson (only with the Nice!) Mike Ratledge (Soft Machine) Dave Stewart (Egg) Brian Auger Graham Bond Irmin Schmidt!(Can) _____________________________________________________________ Email your boss can't read - sign up for free disinfo.net email at http://www.disinfo.com, your gateway to the underground - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:30:12 +0200 From: "Jerzy Matysiakiewicz" Subject: Re: Re:...and organs | Dave Stewart (Egg) Oh, yeah, but don't foget 'bout great "Arzachel" LP with Steve Hillage Jerzy np - Amen Corner - "If Paradise Is Half As Nice" - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 17:06:41 EDT From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: beatles....no zorn content. sorry for the unrelated post. >>It's just like the Beatles in general, Any Jazz bassist can play better than >>McCartney, and Bill Frisell can play much better than Lennon or Harrison, so >>what are we saying ... that the Beatles are not genious?????? Please, NO :-) uh....WRONG! ANY jazz bassist can play better than McCartney? That's a ridiculously broad and unfounded statement...not to mention the fact that in no way is your definition of "better" defined. Same with Frisell, though i do think his compositions draw from a wider range of influences, and display a greater virtuosity...however, that does not necessarily make him more necessary or important. >>THE BEATLES WERE OVERRATED (ARE OVERRATED) In what what way? Outstanding melodies? New musical territory..perhaps without which many modern bands would have never existed? >>THE BEATLES DIDN'T INVENT THE GODDAMN SITAR Who said they did? They simply assimilated it into their music tactfully and usefully. >>THE BEATLES WROTE GOOD POP SONGS >>GOOD *POP* SONGS >>and I don't want to impose a high/low-brow hierarchy >>here, but pop(ular) music is designed, performed, and >>packaged to appeal to the largest amount of people and >>sell the largest number of units...while that does >>take a certain amount of skill (not that much), it's >>more about advertising, trend-mongering, and the cult >>of personality than musicianship. The Beatles were a pop act in the sense that were popular...however, they took chances musically that other bands at the time were not taking. This says that they had integrity although they made money...look at all of the bands they influenced? why, because they had lots of money? Their music far surpassed most rock music at the time in the realms of harmony, melody, production, orchestration, diversity/eclecticism, and creative output. ben - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:08:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Handley Subject: muslimgauze I cruised to the "official" Muslimgauze site last night and was shocked to learn that Bryn Jones (aka Muslimgauze) died abruptly almost two years ago. I'd read some about his staggeringly huge catalog and hoped someone could direct me to some good recording to start with; stuff _you_ like. Descriptions would be appreciated, and if you're not comfortable OT-ing the Zorn-list, e.mail me off-list. Thanks in advance, as always, - -----s NP: Arvo Part, "Te Deum" (ECM) NR: Pynchon, GRAVITY'S RAINBOW (mmmmmm, big) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 23:08:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Leon Spaans Subject: Re: MASADA in Brussels Hi, You can order the tickets for the Brussels concert at "Het Paleis van de Schone Kunsten" (Palais des Beaux Arts) at: +32-2-5078200 (I'm doing this by heart, (i've lost the little note I scribbled it on) but I'm pretty sure that was the number .... if it isn't please mail me ... I'm sure I can find out again what the number is). You can pay the tickets when you have a creditcard and they'll be send to you (also in the Netherlands). If you don't have a creditcard you can pre-order them and pick them up in Brussels (and pay them there in cash). Bye, Leon Spaans On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Emmanouil Papagiannakis wrote: > hi > does any of our Belgian members have some information > on the November concert? location? tickets? > > thanks > > manolis > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 17:15:48 -0400 From: "Neil H. Enet" Subject: RE: Ringo/Beatles Just can't think of the Beatles as boring!!!!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!! Greatest Band on Earth - call it *POP*, call it whatever you want. It's not nostalgia (i'm 21). I won't say anything more about it. OASIS on the other hand ... :-) Neil H. Enet - ------------ NP. RECOIL - liquid - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:31:11 -0700 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Larry Young was: Re:...and organs At 1:24 PM 10/2/00, Tim Keenliside wrote: >>Tell me please, who in your opinion was the best organ >player in the rock >>realm between 67-72. > >Keith Emerson (only with the Nice!) >Mike Ratledge (Soft Machine) >Dave Stewart (Egg) >Brian Auger >Graham Bond >Irmin Schmidt!(Can) > Of this list, probably Ratledge, but... Larry Young is my all-time favorite organist, rock or jazz (and I'd argue that Young's best work was definitely a combination of the two). I was recently given a Hammond Organ, through a bit of amazing luck, and I've been on a mission to transcribe a bunch of Young's material. I've been searching for a few of his records, and was wondering if anyone here might have copies they'd sell, trade or copy: Larry Young: Of Love and Peace, Blue Note, 1966 Larry Young: Contrasts, Blue Note, 1967 Larry Young: Heaven on Earth, Blue Note, 1968 Larry Young: Lawrence of Newark, Perception, 1973 -This made the Wire's list of the 100 best records you never heard a couple of years ago. Features Sonny Sharrock. Larry Young: Spaceball, Arista, 1975 Larry Young: Fuel, Arista, 1975 -These last 2 are generally considered awful attempts at crossover fusion, but I'd still at least like to hear them. Young's presence has made a few otherwise pretty bad records listenable (Mclaughlin/Santana's Love Devotion & Surrender, Tony Williams Ego). ____________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus- ____________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #87 ****************************** To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". 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