From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #117 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, October 17 2000 Volume 03 : Number 117 In this issue: - Delerue's "Contempt" What is the Worst Zorn Release? Re: What is the Worst Zorn Release? Zero Masada would be enough Re: Zero Masada would be enough Re: Zero Masada would be enough Re: Zero Masada would be enough Re: What is the Worst Zorn Release? Re: Zero Masada would be enough RE: what about speed ? Re: Delerue's "Contempt" Re: Zero Masada would be enough Re: Zero Masada would be enough AMM Re: Zero Masada would be enough ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:53:13 +1000 From: "Julian" Subject: Delerue's "Contempt" I know there are a few cds out there with selections from Delerue's "Contempt", but the titles of these cds have slipped my mind. I know there is one track on the soundtrack to "Casino", but I'd prefer to find a cd with a few tracks... Can anyone enlighten me? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:21:48 +1000 From: "Adam Rock" Subject: What is the Worst Zorn Release? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C03888.A443FA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Zorn-listers, As we all know Zorn has quite a large discography. Hence it can be quite = a difficult and daunting task for the newbie is attempting to navigate = through the often confusing terrain which comprises Zorn's body of work. = That being the case, are there any Zorn albums which are best avoided? = Does anyone have any feelings regarding what they consider to be the = worst Zorn release(s)? Thanks, Adam - ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C03888.A443FA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Zorn-listers,

As we all know Zorn has quite a large discography. Hence it can be = quite a=20 difficult and daunting task for the newbie is attempting to navigate = through the=20 often confusing terrain which comprises Zorn's body of work. That being = the=20 case, are there any Zorn albums which are best avoided? Does anyone have = any=20 feelings regarding what they consider to be the worst Zorn = release(s)?

Thanks,

Adam

- ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C03888.A443FA40-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:36:31 +1000 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: What is the Worst Zorn Release? << As we all know Zorn has quite a large discography. Hence it can be quite a difficult and daunting task for the newbie is attempting to navigate through the often confusing terrain which comprises Zorn's body of work. That being the case, are there any Zorn albums which are best avoided? Does anyone have any feelings regarding what they consider to be the worst Zorn release(s)? >> Just like asking for "the best" releases, it depends on your taste. Some people like to avoid Cobra cds, since it is much better seen live. There are 2 albums that come to mind that people generally seem to agree on that aren't so hot: "Nani Nani" (with Yamatsuka Eye) and the infamous guest spot with the Intergalactic Maiden Ballet (I haven't actually heard it myself due to all the warnings). "Nani Nani" actually has it's moment(s) but generally it's just Zorn and Eye screwing around... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:02:06 +0100 From: Nuno Barreiro Subject: Zero Masada would be enough Hello, I bought the first Masada when it came out, and the same happened with the next 2. Then I heard (in this list, by the way) that you could get the Masada 4 by sending the coupons of the first 3 to some adress in Japan... I did it and got my Masada 4 for free. At that point I was very happy, owning 4 Masada CDs which were very similar (musically and in the package), and I was waiting for the next ones. Of course I was convinced that the next Masadas would be completely different from this first ones. And then came Masada 5, and 6, and 7, and 8, and I just kept buying, waiting for the musical revolution that would come out of there. But that never happened... No musical revolution, no nothing. Just plain jazz (yes, that's right) and not particulary interesting... Any tune of the "Spy vs. Spy" album is more revolutionary than the entire Masada series. I stoped buying the Masada albums (with some difficulty, because of this urge to collect some of you may also know, but as a personal protest against the general lack of quality). Whatever Zorn is aiming at is not being achieved (except, perhaps, the part of having fun). One of the posts said that he was planning to write a songbook, like Monk. Of course this is a joke... As any comparison with Miles is also a joke. But, speaking about Monk and Miles, take a look at their music over any period of 5 years and see how it changes. When it comes to Masada we have the same now as 5 years ago!!! Comparing with Ornette Coleman is much more interesting, since Masada is playing, essentially, O.C. music with an oriental flavor. But the genial inspiration that led to the re-interpretation of O.C.s music in"Spy vs. Spy" has vanished, and we are not left with much. Well, this is my opinion on Masada. Of course I like Zorn's music (or wouldn't be in this list) but my favourites would be: Big Gundown, the first Naked City, Spillane, Spy vs. Spy and the "Cat'o nine tails" quartet (in some Kronos Quartet album, I don't remember which). Nuno - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:52:36 +1000 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough > And then came Masada 5, and 6, and 7, and 8, and I > just kept buying, waiting for the musical revolution > that would come out of there. But that never > happened... No musical revolution, no nothing. Just > plain jazz (yes, that's right) and not particulary > interesting... Any tune of the "Spy vs. Spy" album > is more revolutionary than the entire Masada series. I'm confused... surely there must have been something there for you, or you would have stopped at one or two? Masada for me has always been more about the band interaction than the "songbook". But since you say they are all the same, "just plain jazz", I also have to disagree on that point. I must admit I am slightly surprised Zorn never got bored, added a guest to one of the albums or something, but the material is far from all the same. I remember my first impressions when I heard the different Masada albums, and it was always that he was obviously keeping unity while at the same time exploring tangents of the same theme (for example, Masada 6 has been referred to as "the jazzy one" from time to time by people on this list)... But I guess you'd be right in saying nothing majorly revolutionary happened after the first few. You might want to check out Dave Douglas' Tiny Bell Trio for a similar blend of jazz and European styles, but with a bit more of an experimental edge... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:29:58 EDT From: SOUPBEARD@aol.com Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough In a message dated 10/17/00 8:59:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 nbar@di.fc.ul.pt writes: > <<< waiting for the musical revolution>>>>>> John Zorn continually releases his Masada albums because he knows people lik= e=20 you will keep buying them. =A0=A0Seeing as how they are recorded live, they=20= are=20 extremely inexpensive to produce, and though it is not a mainstream band,=20 people buy it for their own reasons. =A0=A0i personally enjoy masada. =A0i h= ave not=20 bought them all because there is still so much music out there that i have=20 yet to experience. =A0But the whole point of this is, that Zorn has made it=20= to=20 a point where he can release anything he wants and people will buy it. =A0ta= ke=20 not only his masada work, but also his first recordings in 1973. =A0=A0lets=20= not=20 forget that in his game pieces that he is not concerned about how it=20 SOUNDS...he is concerned with how it works out. =A0i can only hope that one=20= day=20 i can release all my teenage f*ckarounds. =A0=A0=A0 <<>> me too. =A0discovering zorn's music was such an incredible thing for me.=20= =A0i=20 know that you folks know what i mean.=20 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:16:40 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough On Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:02:06PM +0100, Nuno Barreiro wrote: > Whatever Zorn is aiming at is not being achieved > (except, perhaps, the part of having fun). One of > the posts said that he was planning to write a > songbook, like Monk. Of course this is a joke... In what sense? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:18:19 EDT From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: Re: What is the Worst Zorn Release? In a message dated 10/17/00 8:38:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au writes: << "Nani Nani" (with Yamatsuka Eye) and the infamous guest spot with the Intergalactic Maiden Ballet (I haven't actually heard it myself due to all the warnings). "Nani Nani" actually has it's moment(s) but generally it's just Zorn and Eye screwing around... >> Interesting. Honestly, I'm not trying to sound contrary for its own sake, but I like Nani Nani quite a bit. I guess for me, I'd actually say Masada. Actually, I managed to hear Taboo and Exile, and that was definitely the album that convinced me that at this point I should definitely hear Zorn albums before buying them. Pretty much nothing redeeming for me there. I go to Zorn for compositional interest, of which there's 0 % on that album. It sounded like he wrote everything in the studio, and not in the editing/mixing kind of way, but in the 'I've got this recording date so I better tell these guys to do something' way. Other albums I like: Locus Solus, Book of Heads, Rebird, some of the String Quartets (Dead Man and Memento Mori), and the other I'd mentioned before. Oh, and Spy vs. Spy, too, which was my first Zorn, back in 9th grade at Christmas time. - -matt - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:32:50 EDT From: DRoyko@aol.com Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough In a message dated 00-10-17 08:59:59 EDT, you write: >And then came Masada 5, and 6, and 7, and 8, and I >just kept buying, waiting for the musical revolution >that would come out of there. Funny, I kept buying them because, oh, I dunno, I enjoy them? This idea of "importance" that's been being bandied around lately, of whether or not something is revoultionary, reactionary, original or derivative, strikes me as being much ado about nothing. While I have made it a point to hear something if someone I respect says they consider it important, it has been years since I've actually gone that next step and bought something just because it is supposedly important. I used to care that my collection be representative of the areas of music I cared about (back in my 20s, anyway). Now, I only seek out what I enjoy listening to. Important? History will decide that down the road. Masada lets you down? Then you are right not to buy it. I enjoy it, and would be happy to see still more recordings come out of it. Is some other music, maybe Derek Bailey's, more "important"? I have no idea, but from what I have listened to of his (exectly two recordings), I could care less, because I'd rather listen to a jackhammer. Or my 7-year-old's Backstreet Boys CDs, for that matter. Dave Royko - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:44:28 +0200 From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" Subject: RE: what about speed ? Hey Jason, Thanks for sharing. I've got "Deviantics". But I still have to enter into that disc. You know what I will do. I'll play it in my car as I drive to Myra Melford's Crush concert with Cuong Vu tonight. Looking forward to Alasnoaxis. Rob@llaert.nu |-----Original From: jason tors: |I have been checking out his quartet, yeah no, at tonic a bit, wow they |blow me completely away, especially coung vu on the trumpet. Check out |their latest disc, deviantics. The group does a great blend of tight |balkan inspired tunes, along with some firey groove/free |improvizations. | |A disc I am flipping out about these days is the new jim black [with |speed] alas no axis on w&w. The problem I find with that crew of |players [skuli, black, shepik, speed, sarin, coung vu, etc etc] is that |they all play so much together their seperate releases start sounding |very similar. | |> I didn't like "Iffy" too much either, but Speed's sound and melody |> with |> Pachora is majestic. He still has to prove that same level in other |> environments. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:46:09 -0700 From: Tosh Subject: Re: Delerue's "Contempt" on 10/17/00 4:53 AM, Julian at jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au wrote: > I know there are a few cds out there with selections from Delerue's > "Contempt", but the titles of these cds have slipped my mind. I know there > is one track on the soundtrack to "Casino", but I'd prefer to find a cd with > a few tracks... Can anyone enlighten me? > > > - > > There was (and still is?) a collection of early Godard films on one cd. It was issued in Japan in the mid-90's. Also you may find the piece in a best of Delerue collection. As far as I know I don't think there was ever a full-length album of the Contempt soundtrack. - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:05:00 +0100 From: Nuno Barreiro Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough Joseph Zitt wrote: > On Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:02:06PM +0100, Nuno Barreiro wrote: > > > Whatever Zorn is aiming at is not being achieved > > (except, perhaps, the part of having fun). One of > > the posts said that he was planning to write a > > songbook, like Monk. Of course this is a joke... > > In what sense? In the sense that anyone may easily produce such statements... One doesn't write a songbook with the intention of writing a songbook (at least when refering to jazz musicians). One writes songs and, eventually, the songs will become a songbook. It's not an absolute activity... It's like saying: "I am planing to write a few standards..." Nuno - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:07:34 -0400 From: "Jesse Kudler" Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: > This idea of "importance" that's been being bandied around lately, of whether > or not something is revoultionary, reactionary, original or derivative, > strikes me as being much ado about nothing. > Now, I only seek out what I enjoy listening to. Important? History will I think for some people, these two areas probably largely overlap. I know that personally, I'm a very critical listener, and I usually don't enjoy music that seems derivative or strongly reminiscent of something I've heard before. I don't mean that in some kind of intellectual or analytical way; I just mean that music that sounds terribly familiar and/or doesn't offer a new challenge usually doesn't end up being interesting to listen to. > decide that down the road. Masada lets you down? Then you are right not to > buy it. I enjoy it, and would be happy to see still more recordings come out > of it. Is some other music, maybe Derek Bailey's, more "important"? I have no > idea, but from what I have listened to of his (exectly two recordings), I > could care less, because I'd rather listen to a jackhammer. Or my > 7-year-old's Backstreet Boys CDs, for that matter. Which two? Yeah, I would say Derek's quite "important," being one of the most significant guitarists of the century and a key figure in free improvisation for a long time. And I quite enjoy listening to almost all of his recordings that I've heard. As for the jackhammer comparisons, you should check out some acoustic Bailey, as he can frequently be quite lyrical. Try "Aida" if it's still floating around anywhere. You'd rather listen to the Backstreet Boys, yeesh. . . - -Jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:09:59 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: AMM I'm really curious to hear other people's reactions to the AMM show in Boston on Saturday. I know there were more people from the list there than have spoken up as of yet... another interesting Keith Rowe tidbit: in a few weeks, he'll be travelling somewhere in Central Africa and jamming with pygmies. he didn't know whether he was going to need a generator, but he was sure that he couldn't play without electricity. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:10:54 EDT From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough In a message dated 10/17/00 12:03:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nbar@di.fc.ul.pt writes: << In the sense that anyone may easily produce such statements... One doesn't write a songbook with the intention of writing a songbook (at least when refering to jazz musicians). One writes songs and, eventually, the songs will become a songbook. It's not an absolute activity... It's like saying: "I am planing to write a few standards..." Nuno >> But Zorn has said in many interviews that writing a songbook WAS his intention. He WANTED to compile a series of songs that could be played by any ensemble. That was his goal. Just as a writer sits down and says, "I am going to write a series of stories with a certain theme (or setting or character or device) and compile them into a linked short story collection." Yes, you write one song/story at a time, but you do it within self-imposed parameters (Zorn -- the "Hassidic scales" for Masada; James Joyce -- all stories set in Dublin for "Dubliners") to achieve your ultimate goal. It gives one focus and direction, and, in my estimation, cohesion. I dig most of Zorn's catalogue. His game pieces, his hardcore, his experimental classical, his ambient, his straight-up jazz. Masada happens to be some of my favorite material that he's produced, but I can understand why some people may not favor it. But I'm surprised by how many people think it's some of his weaker work. Is it just a case of popularity-itis? Curious, Tom - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #117 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". 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