From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #319 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 03 : Number 319 In this issue: - Re: fahey/revenant Re: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590)) Re: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590)) RE: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP Re: The hole in the 70s pressing vinyl: off topic 70's re-issues and stuff 70's jazz RE: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590)) Re: fahey/revenant Re: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s/last thing i'll say about ken burns RE: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s Re: The hole in the 70s ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:53:54 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: fahey/revenant Revenant is indeed planning a multi-CD box set of Charlie Patton's work for later this year. After that, they'll be putting together John's last recordings for release. Best, Jason - -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:00:52 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s Nope Those "jazz-death" people would still not be listening to that music anyway, it might upset them. Ken Waxman - --- DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote: > I wonder if any decade in jazz has been less well > served on CD. And I wonder how different perceptions > of jazz history would be - per the > jazz-died-in-the-70s canard - if we could just hear > that era's output. _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:53:13 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590)) On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:39:16 -0500 "Steve Smith" wrote: > > Well, in recent years we've started to see a change in this, at least where > Incus is concerned. Emanem got to reissue the Iskra 1903 material, Dexter's > Cigar reissued 'Aida,' and Organ of Corti packaged the 'Incus Taps.' Darn! I guess these are the exceptions that confirm the rule :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:36:58 EST From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590)) In a message dated Tue, 6 Mar 2001 3:06:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, DvdBelkin@aol.com writes: I wonder if any decade in jazz has been less well served on CD. And I wonder how different perceptions of jazz history would be - per the jazz-died-in-the-70s canard - if we could just hear that era's output. >> Could be why Ken Burns left out the 70's in his documentary... - -- =dg= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:48:53 -0500 From: "Alan Kayser" Subject: RE: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP >"From: "Steve Smith" >Subject: Well, in recent years we've started to see a change in this, at >least >where >Incus is concerned. Emanem got to reissue the Iskra 1903 material, >snip...Of course, in some cases we're also contending with the > >diappearance of >original source material. What small reissue label wouldn't sell its >collective soul to reissue 'The Topography of the Lungs,' which Bailey >has >reported lost forever? Of course, if Bailey and Parker could reach a >gentleman's agreement on that particular session, I bet Atavistic could >do >a >reasonable job mastering from clean vinyl. Wouldn't be the first time. >Steve Smith" Yes, and hat's are off to Emanem for the fine job they did with ISKRA and cutting the cds from LP source material. FMP, among others, is sitting on classic material from the 70s, probably as not to conflict with newer releases from the same artists. Brotzmann and vonSchlippenbach come to mind. The Brotzmann/Bennink/VanHove LPs from the 70s are not on CD at all. And I'm certain that the vonSchlippenbach Trio 70-80s LPs (Pakistani pomade, Three Nails Left, Hidden Peak, and Anticlockwise) are not present due to their newer releases. I've searched without luck for this vinyl. (If anyone knows of used copies, or is willing to copy, get in touch. I have much to trade). Actually, what is available only scrathes the surface. Alan E. Kayser _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:19:38 -0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s >From: DvdBelkin@aol.com > >I wonder if any decade in jazz has been less well served on CD. And I >wonder how different perceptions of jazz history would be - per the >jazz-died-in-the-70s canard - if we could just hear that era's output. > In fact, it seemed like jazz did almost die in the '70s (in North America), mainly from corporate greed and neglect. By that time the labels main interest had become 'pop' music, and the only way many jazz artists could record was if they did albums of 'pop' tunes. Hence we find Chet Baker doing the Mariachi Brass, Joe Pass doing the Rolling Stones, etc. Many of the great players like Dexter Gordon, etc. were forced to relocate to Europe in order to continue playing. Supposedly, Monk stopped recording when his label told him they wanted an album of Beatles covers! It was a bad time for the traditional older fans of jazz who couldn't get with the 'new thing' and ended up being alienated by the younger free jazz players. Some of the 'new' avantgarde players were fakers, and didn't really have the chops. Fans of the avant garde seemed to have no regard for the historical aspects of the genre, and by the latter part of the decade, it became extremely difficult to get many of the classic jazz recordings. Fortunately, the Europeans and the Japanese continued to chronicle and support the music. To my mind, this is probably why the Ken Burns documentary stopped short! The '70s are a complete embarrassment for the history of jazz in North America, essentially the genre was forgotten, neglected and left to die... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:55:00 EST From: APoesia794@aol.com Subject: pressing vinyl: off topic does anybody know of a decently priced place to get a vinyl master plate pressed? the same for record pressing. thanks a bunch. jason - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:00:09 EST From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: 70's re-issues and stuff BTW, I'd just thought I'd ask if anyone else besides me thinks that the Iskra 1903 set is ridiculously great? Also, how is the new Evan Parker-produced strings album on Emanem? Anyone heard it? I'm sure also that someone has mentioned the Evan Parker/Keith Rowe duo disc at some point; is that as great as can be reasonably assumed? I never seem to see that one; I'm looking to complete the Evan Parker meets AMM triumvurate of duo albums. Thanks, - -Matt Mitchell - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:19:07 EST From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: 70's jazz What about Weather Report? Ornette? Dexter's Homecoming (is that the title? - the double w/ Woody Shaw from 1979)? The majority of Woody Shaw's output? Miles? Keith Jarrett - the most prolific jazz pianist of the '70's, released about 14 albums with his quartet with Dewey Redman, 3 with the quartet with Jan Garbarek, not to mention scads of solo albums and other things more in a classical sort of realm. V. S. O. P., arguably steeped in the '60 Miles thing but sounding very unmistakably of their time. There are actually 3 records by that band, though I'm not sure how many were released in the '70's. Joe Henderson did some great stuff in the decade. Mahavishnu, Tony Williams Lifetime, even Chick Corea at times. Herbie's Thrust is one of the best jazz albums ever! Of course, if were defining jazz as albums that sound like Milestones, Giant Steps, Birth of the Cool, etc., then I guess much less of this qualifies. I always considered even the amped-up stuff from the '70's to be more jazz than anything else. - -Matt Mitchell - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:39:16 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590)) Well, in recent years we've started to see a change in this, at least where Incus is concerned. Emanem got to reissue the Iskra 1903 material, Dexter's Cigar reissued 'Aida,' and Organ of Corti packaged the 'Incus Taps.' Perhaps as time goes on more such labels will see these deals as a way to satisfy consumer demand for older material while generating a bit a working capital in order to underwrite newer projects of their own. Of course, in some cases we're also contending with the diappearance of original source material. What small reissue label wouldn't sell its collective soul to reissue 'The Topography of the Lungs,' which Bailey has reported lost forever? Of course, if Bailey and Parker could reach a gentleman's agreement on that particular session, I bet Atavistic could do a reasonable job mastering from clean vinyl. Wouldn't be the first time. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com (who really has no business posting while on deadline...) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Patrice L. Roussel The "problem" with FMP, Incus, and ICP is that they refuse other labels to reissue their catalog. And since it is natural for artists to put more emphasis on what they do *NOW*, old recordings get lower priority. Patrice. - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:53:54 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: fahey/revenant Revenant is indeed planning a multi-CD box set of Charlie Patton's work for later this year. After that, they'll be putting together John's last recordings for release. Best, Jason - -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:57:18 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s >>From: DvdBelkin@aol.com > >> >>I wonder if any decade in jazz has been less well served on CD. And >>I wonder how different perceptions of jazz history would be - per >>the jazz-died-in-the-70s canard - if we could just hear that era's >>output. >> (Snip) >The '70s are a complete embarrassment for the history of jazz in >North America, essentially the genre was forgotten, neglected and >left to die... Lack of major label support does not equal death. (Despite what Ken Burns might think) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:51:45 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s skip heller > > Lack of major label support does not equal death. (Despite > what Ken Burns might think) > > - > No, but it equals a lack of visibility, and, if one can't see something, how will they know it exists? On the happier side, it has made certain catalogues cheaper to purchase and therefore more cost-effective to reissue. 32 Jazz has reissued much of the Muse Records catalog, which means Woody Shaw and Pat Martino, among others. Also, the ECM stuff tends to largely be findable (I wish they'd adopt a mid-line pricing for catalog -- replacing all my old Carla Bley vinyl is STEEP). It would be nice to see the Artist's House stuff and a few other things come out, but, to my tastes, there's enough out there that one can look into the seventies and get something of an accurate idea of the period. BTW -- are we all through trashing Ken Burns? That much is getting tedious. skip heller - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:06:03 EST From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s In a message dated Tue, 6 Mar 2001 9:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Skip Heller writes: << BTW -- are we all through trashing Ken Burns? That much is getting tedious. >> I'm afraid I started that round again. Couldn't help but get in one last dig. - -- =dg= - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 04:34:37 -0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s >From: Rich Williams >(Snip) >>The '70s are a complete embarrassment for the history of jazz in North >>America, essentially the genre was forgotten, neglected and left to die... > > > Lack of major label support does not equal death. Obviously, but in this case, there was also a lack of audience exposure and interest, hence the mass exodus of seasoned players over to Europe, unless they could get work teaching... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:38:30 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s/last thing i'll say about ken burns skip heller > In a message dated Tue, 6 Mar 2001 9:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Skip > Heller writes: > > << BTW -- are we all through trashing Ken Burns? That much is getting tedious. > >> > > I'm afraid I started that round again. Couldn't help but get in one last dig. Aside from the obvious complaining that goes on whenever anybody presents anything that anybody presents as a definitive history of anything, the Ken Burns doc had one fantastic result -- it got people who never thought about jazz curious enough to ask questions about it, most of them intelligent ones. Which is more than decades of niche magazines have been able to accomplish. skip heller np: charles ives plays charles ives - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:40:37 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: RE: The hole in the 70s Yeah Alan: But at least Live In Berlin '71 with Albert Mangelsdorff (trombone, voice ); Peter Brötzmann (tenor saxophone);Fred Van Hove (upright piano); Han Bennik (drums, khene, vibrapan, kaffir-piano, dhung, dhung-gar, gachi, oe-oe, elong, hone-made junk, voice, tins)is out on FMP. But you probably also know that. It's a great two-CD set. Ken Waxman - --- Alan Kayser wrote: FMP, among > others, is sitting on > classic material from the 70s, probably as not to > conflict with newer > releases from the same artists. Brotzmann and > vonSchlippenbach come to > mind. The Brotzmann/Bennink/VanHove LPs from the > 70s are not on CD at all. _______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:49:38 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s Thomas: What you're saying seems to be a variation of the Wynton Marsalis "the avant gardists killed jazz" rap. Can you please cite those "avantgarde players [who]were fakers, and didn't really have the chops" and which "Fans of the avant garde [who]seemed to have no regard for the historical aspects of the genre"? Seems to me the "fakers" quickly died away, with most avant gardists possessing enough chops to play both "straight" -- if they wanted to -- and "outside". Over the years I've also met few "fans of the avant garde" (in fact none) who didn't acknowledge the music's history. It's usually the conservative types who pronounce jazz dead at --pick date -- 1931, 1945, 1961, 1970. Ken Waxman - --- thomas chatterton wrote: It was a bad time for the traditional older fans of jazz who couldn't get with the 'new thing' and > ended up being alienated by the younger free jazz > players. Some of the 'new' avantgarde players were fakers, and didn't really have the chops. Fans > of the avant garde seemed to have no regard for the > historical aspects of the genre, and by the latter part of the decade, it became extremely > difficult to get many of the classic jazz > recordings. _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:27:11 -0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s >From: Ken Waxman >What you're saying seems to be a variation of the >Wynton Marsalis "the avant gardists killed jazz" rap. > Answer:I was only making a personal observation regarding the progress of jazz in the '70s, based on my experience working in a jazz speciality record store. If anything the 'true' avantgardists kept the music 'happening', in my opinion Wympie and the new traditionalists are the ones not necessarily killing jazz but attempting to rewrite its history and prevent it from moving forward. >Can you please cite those "avantgarde players >[who]were fakers, and didn't really have the chops" >and which "Fans of the avant garde [who]seemed to have >no regard for the historical aspects of the genre"? >Seems to me the "fakers" quickly died away, with most >avant gardists possessing enough chops to play both >"straight" -- if they wanted to -- and "outside". Over >the years I've also met few "fans of the avant garde" >(in fact none) who didn't acknowledge the music's >history. It's usually the conservative types who >pronounce jazz dead at --pick date... >Answer:In the words of Thumper, "If you can't say anything nice about >someone, then don't say anything at all". I have no wish to publicly cite >any specific names regarding 'fakers', this is strictly subjective and >personal opinion, plus you're right for the most part they did drop away, >but I feel they also did damage to the genre. (Also some players who >started as avant-garde 'fakers' actually worked up their chops and became >good players.) However, there are still 'movers & shakers' in the jazz biz who feel that the music's 'history' before the '70s is too 'retro' now to be taken into consideration! It seems they would also like to do some historical revision. Ironically I've seen long-term jazz fans turn against Zorn's music, as his popularity increased, which I suppose is due to the elitist appeal some people want to find in music. When I started out listening to jazz in the '70s, the hardcore fans I knew expected one to dive into the deep end and 'dig' the heavy free improv stuff, ignoring the necessity for a grounding in the more traditional historic aspects of the music. I did, but eventually I had to go back on my own to find out about the older stuff. Then the avantgarde made sense! From my point of view, the music and its followers really splintered in the '70s, and my main point anyway was that jazz essentially was ignored and forgotten by the mainstream media and audience in North America. If you ever have the chance, talk to someone like Steve Lacy or Johnny Griffin about why they moved to Europe. It's sad... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #319 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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