From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #488 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, July 5 2001 Volume 03 : Number 488 In this issue: - Fwd: new tzadiks! Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do RE: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what theydo Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #486 FW: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice Reviews of Maldoror (Ipecac) Monk? E# Sharp at mp3.com Re: gainsbourg novel+M. Harvey question Re: gainsbourg novel+M. Harvey question RE: Monk? Re: Monk? Re: FW: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice mmmw + harriet Tubman trio tomorow in Viennes (France) (NZC) guitar playing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:45:17 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= Subject: Fwd: new tzadiks! > > anyone had the chance to pick up the new Zorn and > Frith releases on tzadik?? > I did hear the new Zorn and found no interest in it after a first contact. The computer compositions are just senseless noise IMHO. I couldn't say it's even hilarious or entertaining in some way. There was also a composition with a recitation that could be relatively highlightable. All in all, a dull Zorn's release. Boring and gratuitous and pretentious are the words that come to my mind. However, I'm looking forward to the Frith release. Sorry about that shallow piece of mind. Regards, Efrén _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger: Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente - http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:52:44 -0700 From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do > >>>it's hard to imagine practicing scales like I am and >ending up where Chadbourne is.<<< > >To end up where Chadbourne is you must practice your scales >and end up where Michael Howes is. You're the only one that >can do it. well that is what I meant....I don't want to be exactly like Chadbourne....or really like anybody.... Well after seeing The Ex live last week, I could die happy be able to do what they do. :) What I was sort of looking for was....are there different things/ways to practice other than doing my scales and scale patterns if I want to be able to improvise on the level of a Chadbourne. See as I continue to practice scales, for example, and get better at them, I seem to be betting closer to some wanker like Y Malmstein :) and thinks that how a lot of guitar players ended up the wankers they are....lie Satiani, Via, Malmstein and the bunch... ><< To end up where Chadbourne is you must practice your scales > >and end up where Michael Howes is. You're the only one that > >can do it. >> > >while I understand your sentiment, I'm not sure if practicing scales is the >best way to emulate Chadbourne. I'd say just play all the time and see where >you end up. Emulate might not be a good word here. Sure I'd probably like to be able to play some Chadbourne compositions. But more so there is a level of understanding of how to improvise that I'm having a hard time finding much info on. I'm hoping Bailey's book, "Improvisation" helps. Go back. Learn the basics. Know your instrument >to the point where you can absolutely express yourself >freely. well the good news is I don't have to "go back" since I'm ALREADY AT THE BEGINNING! :) mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:07:18 -0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do >But more so there is a level of >understanding of how to improvise that I'm having a hard time finding much >info on. I'm hoping Bailey's book, "Improvisation" helps. It will. In fact, I'll just sum it up for you: JUST DO IT. That's the only way to get better. Great book, but I would follow it up with some interviews with Derek. His book is a bit academic (which Derek himself is absolutely not!), and it helps to hear him talk about these things in a more free way (pun not intended ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:18:06 EDT From: Acousticlv@aol.com Subject: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice dear friends if this has been done to death here, please respond to me rather than the list. i have just split my sides reading serge gainesbourg's wickedly funny novel 'evguenie solokov' (sorry if i mangled the title, i already lent the book to my mom.) by the way, it's published by tamtam books, courtesy of one of our zornlist pals. so; i havent heard the zorn gainesbourg trib, and would like to know if it's all instrumental, or do any have texts/song/samples? i also, i naturally had to buy some gainebourg disques so i got the reggae one done with robbie and sly in 77, plus a 28track best of. natch, none include any lyrics, and my french hasnt been that good for 20 yrs already. does anyone have texts or a site with his lyrics? thanks steve koenig acousticLv@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 13:28:20 -0700 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do The fly in the ointment is always vocabulary. I checked out Beefheart like you'd never believe, and enjoyed every minute. But I could still never discern Bill Harkleroad's line of logic, and I can't play like that to save my life. I love it, tho. But it refuses to become part of my personal vocabulary. Some guys -- and I think Chadbourne is one of these -- are just born with a certain kind of inner-ear. I think that he was just born to play a ceratin way. As for his practicing scales, I don't really get the feeling that I'd like to hear him in a jazz group playing "Giant Steps". I don't get the feeling that's something he could really do. Robert Quine, on the other hand, seems to me to be more at home with the traditional literature. And, obviously, Frisell. A lot of guys like Chadbourne (and Beefheart) wind up designing contexts for the way they play, which is great to do, because I can't see where Chadbourne would shine so brightly other than where he shines. Anybody who doesn't think context matters should hear the Paul Bley record where Ornette plays "Klactoveedsedstene" (a Charlie Parker tune) very very badly. But the clue of someone who's taking a Bailey/Frith/Chadbourne etc tact is to design and build your own context. And I often doubt if that impulse can be learned as much as it is something to which one gravitates naturally. skip h np: aretha franklin -- young, gifted, and black - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:17:28 -0400 From: "Jim McLoughlin" Subject: RE: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what theydo Howdy - ---- Some guys -- and I think Chadbourne is one of these -- are just born with a certain kind of inner-ear. I think that he was just born to play a ceratin way. As for his practicing scales, I don't really get the feeling that I'd like to hear him in a jazz group playing "Giant Steps". I don't get the feeling that's something he could really do. - ---- For arguments sake... Dr. Chadbourne tears through some jazz standards with the Eddie Chatterbox Jazz group (I forget the albume name, I have a homemade chad copy of it in a chicken fingers box along with other Camper stuff). The group plays twisted versions of Mingus' "Nostalgia in Times Square", Monk's "Ask Me Now" and "Bolivar Ba-lues Are", a couple of Dolphy tunes (including "Out to Lunch"), "Milestones", and some others. The band includes the camper folks (Victor Krumenacher, Jonathon Segal, et al), Walter Mali on soprano sax, and Graham Connah on keys. I also dig his banjo/dobro renditions of Monk tunes, particularly Epistrophy with Tony Trishka on the album _Wild Partner_ (which also has full-blown improv insanityon tracks with Davey Williams) and Monk's Mood on _Strings_. On other albums he covers Herbie Nichols, Ornette, Coltrane, Ellington, Strayhorn, ... So these are all examples of Chad's playing in a more standard context, though he certainly has his own slant on the tunes. I think he's quite capable of playing in a straighter setting, it's just not his cup of tea... Jim M NP Haino Keiji - Aihiyo - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:35:55 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?=" Subject: Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice . > > >so; i havent heard the zorn gainesbourg trib, and would like to >know if it's all instrumental, or do any have texts/song/samples? > >Hi Steve, It's been a long time :). The Gainsbourg tribute is a wonderful album. Most of the covers feature vocals. I lent it but from the top of my head, I can just recall an MM&W instrumental version of "The intoxicated Man". There could be more. You should buy it. Really good. Probably the best of the three in the "Great Jewish Music" series - which, by the way, are not having continuity. Regards, Efrén n.p: Tiny Bell Trio "Live in Europe" n.r: J.P Sartre "La Nausée" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 18:57:42 EDT From: Letucepry@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #486 hey, anyone got any recommendations for Dresden Germany, Or Berlin or Prague, for that matter, I'm currently on a very long business trip and would appreciate any info on clubs, bands etc. and I don't mean techno remixes of cheezy 80's pop songs, etc, as I am posting this on the Zorn list..... thanks djmushmush - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 01:16:51 +0200 From: Ari Subject: FW: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice - ---------- From: Ari Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 22:46:26 +0200 To: Subject: Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice Hi Steve, > so; i havent heard the zorn gainesbourg trib, and would like to > know if it's all instrumental, or do any have texts/song/samples? the tribute contains 21 songs, all sung. the song zorn did is even completely a capella (very funny!!; it's the only gainsbourg song on this c= d i didn't know the original version from, but it seems to be a song he wrote for brigitte bardot!) > i also, i naturally had to buy some gainebourg disques so i got the > reggae one done with robbie and sly in 77, plus a 28track best of. > natch, none include any lyrics, and my french hasnt been that good > for 20 yrs already. does anyone have texts or a site with his lyrics? i once dicovered a website with gainsbourg lyrics, but it doesn't exist anymore due to copyright problems, don't know about another one... although i like his reggae work, i don't think it's the best he did. i woul= d suggest "l'histoire de melody nelson", "du jazz dans le ravin" or "l'homme = =E0 t=EAte de choux"; or go for one of the very good and cheap compilations! Ari. np: the best of john barry - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:58:57 +0930 From: "Case Sinclair" Subject: Reviews of Maldoror (Ipecac) Hi all, Referring to the Mike Patton/Masami Akita project "Maldoror : She" on Ipecac I just got a chance to listen to Maldoror and a few other Patton projects that had been gathering dust, and I wondered if anyone had see and reviews, or more importantly any interviews with either Mike or Masami about it. I guess I am wondering if there was indeed any real "story" behind the album, or weather is was just them getting together to "fuck shit up". I have tried to reason with the artwork and the sounds, but cant really come to any conclusions about it. Anyone got any insight into this album they wish to share? Case NP: Kent: Hagnesta Hill - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:01:44 +0200 From: patRice Subject: Monk? Hi y'all... After reading the Zorn interview again in Duckworth's "Talking Music" I thought I should once again delve a bit more into Thelonious Monk. So what do you boys and girls think is essential Monk? I remember hearing some stuff at a friend's place years ago that I liked; and I've got a CD that has some good stuff on it. Must say I prefer the pieces that don't have wind instruments. Suggestions welcome. patRice np: Morcheeba, Fragments Of Freedom nr: Ryunosuke Akutagawa, Rashomon - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:23:17 +0200 From: Tim Blechmann Subject: E# Sharp at mp3.com I just came across some mp3s of elliott sharp at mp3.com. two unreleased parts of his composition "syndakit" and a few tracks released on the "Ir/Rational Music" cassettes. http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/260/elliott_sharp.html maybe someone is interested in that... PEACE Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.de ICQ: 96771783 http://nav.to/timblech - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:34:30 +0200 From: "john rust" Subject: Re: gainsbourg novel+M. Harvey question >i have just split my sides reading serge gainesbourg's wickedly funny >novel 'evguenie solokov' (sorry if i mangled the title, i already >lent the book to my mom.) >by the way, it's published by tamtam books, courtesy of one >of our zornlist pals. Is that true? Is it the the English translation and if yes, is the book still available? I'll be grateful for every answer, thanks in advance, yuriy And BTW, what's the opinion of the z-list about those two Mick Harvey-Gainsbourg Tributes?.. I can't remember anyone mentioning them during the Gainsbourg-threads... And waht about the recent "I Love Serge"- Remixes project? - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:00:33 +0200 From: Julien Quint Subject: Re: gainsbourg novel+M. Harvey question Le Jeudi 05 Juillet 2001 12:34, john rust a ?crit : > And BTW, what's the opinion of the z-list about those two Mick > Harvey-Gainsbourg Tributes?.. I can't remember anyone mentioning them > during the Gainsbourg-threads... And waht about the recent "I Love Serge"- > Remixes project? Don't know about the Mick Harvey tributes, but avoid the remix project, it's just opportunistic crap by bad house producers. Julien - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:32:24 -0400 From: "Jim McLoughlin" Subject: RE: Monk? 2 of my fav (non wind instrument) monk albums: Thelonious Monk plays Duke Ellington (Riverside) Solo Monk (Columbia) Other favorites: Brilliant Corners (Riverside) with Sonny Rollins and Max Roach Criss-Cross (Columbia) (Has some tracks with Charlie Rouse on sax, some just piano trio) Jim - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of patRice Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 4:02 AM To: Zornlist Subject: Monk? Hi y'all... After reading the Zorn interview again in Duckworth's "Talking Music" I thought I should once again delve a bit more into Thelonious Monk. So what do you boys and girls think is essential Monk? I remember hearing some stuff at a friend's place years ago that I liked; and I've got a CD that has some good stuff on it. Must say I prefer the pieces that don't have wind instruments. Suggestions welcome. patRice np: Morcheeba, Fragments Of Freedom nr: Ryunosuke Akutagawa, Rashomon - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:11:52 -0700 From: Maurice Rickard Subject: Re: Monk? At 10:01 AM +0200 7/5/01, patRice wrote: > >So what do you boys and girls think is essential Monk? > >Must say I >prefer the pieces that don't have wind instruments. For my money, you can't go wrong with most of the Riverside stuff. In fact, I bought the 15-CD Riverside box stuff. For single discs, I'll second _Brilliant Corners_ with a resounding amen. Monk liked brass, but if you want to avoid it, check out _Thelonious: Himself_, which is solo piano versions of some brilliantly Monkified covers and great originals...and Coltrane shows up for a glorious "Monk's Mood." If you can make an exception on the horns, check out the great Town Hall concert, with an expanded brass section and lush, glorious arrangements. HTH, Maurice - -- Maurice Rickard http://mauricerickard.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:19:30 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: FW: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice On Thu, 05 Jul 2001 01:16:51 +0200 Ari wrote: > > np: the best of john barry Does it include Jane Birkin? Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:27:21 +0200 From: "in.out" Subject: mmmw + harriet Tubman trio tomorow in Viennes (France) (NZC) Hi, For those who are in the area, Jazz =E0 Viennes (close to Lyon in France) is proposing tomorow night (6th of july), a New York night with Medeski- Martin & Wood and Harriet Tubman trio with this line up : Graham Haynes (tp), Brandon Ross (g), Melvin Gibbs (b), J=2ET=2E Lewis (dms)= , DJ Singe (platines), DJ Val (platines), Moreno Veloso (voc, g)=2E More info http://www=2Ejazzavienne=2Ecom/ in/out staff - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:46:58 EDT From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: guitar playing. - --part1_46.17249823.2875f402_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the most important thing is to play what you feel. learn formalities only when they interest you, but it certainly might be of some benefit to learn them at some point. however, i don't believe that there are any true rules...the guitar is a machine that produces sound. begin to explore the possibilities of the guitar and the multitudes of sound it can create. owing to digital/analog effects, multiple repeats of notes, alternate tunings, "preparations", etc., the guitar is probably one of the most timbrally diverse instruments. tom herman (from pere ubu) told me, when i asked him a similar question, to "speak [when playing the guitar] in phrases. use the phrasing of the sounds of things you hear, busses, people talking, etc." this idea is important in that shows the necessity for presenting thoughts, ideas in your playing....not just playing someone else's version of improv. explore the "phrasing" of everyday life. whatever aspects of it that interest YOU. on the subject of current thoughts in improvisation, there are really a few different ways to look at it: 1. straight-up jazz improvising. in other words, memorization and then using that which you have learned (scales, patterns, modes, (jazz) licks, etc.) to create new and inventive melodies spontaneously. this is the fundamental idea behind straight modern jazz improv. of course, to quote jimi tenor, "what is jazz, anyway?" 2. "Free" improv. take it at face value...i am sure you have heard plenty of this free music. i suggest reading this: http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/fulltext/mbailin2.html the reason i am relatively hesitant to tell you specific techniques and strategies is because i feel i eventually arrived at playing in this manner intrinsically...and you probably will too. don't force yourself to play stuff because it is advanced, or new, or avant-garde. it will force you into an idiom that you probably won't enjoy. just allow things to come as they come. just play and play and play and listen to ALL FORMS of improvised music....your natural inclinations toward playing will eventually begin to appear. hope this helps. ben o. nr- genet "funeral rites" np- bugge wesseltoft "moving" - --part1_46.17249823.2875f402_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the most important thing is to play what you feel.
learn formalities only when they interest you, but it certainly might be of
some benefit to learn them at some point.  however, i don't believe that
there are any true rules...the guitar is a machine that produces sound. begin
to explore the possibilities of the guitar and the multitudes of sound it can
create. owing to digital/analog effects, multiple repeats of notes, alternate
tunings, "preparations", etc., the guitar is probably one of the most
timbrally diverse instruments.

tom herman (from pere ubu) told me, when i asked him a similar question, to
"speak [when playing the guitar] in phrases. use the phrasing of the sounds
of things you hear, busses, people talking, etc." this idea is important in
that shows the necessity for presenting thoughts, ideas in your
playing....not just playing someone else's version of improv. explore the
"phrasing" of everyday life. whatever aspects of it that interest YOU.

on the subject of current thoughts in improvisation, there are really a few
different ways to look at it:

1. straight-up jazz improvising. in other words, memorization and then using
that which you have learned (scales, patterns, modes, (jazz) licks, etc.) to
create new and inventive melodies spontaneously. this is the fundamental idea
behind straight modern jazz improv. of course, to quote jimi tenor, "what is
jazz, anyway?"

2. "Free" improv. take it at face value...i am sure you have heard plenty of
this free music.  i suggest reading this:
  http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/fulltext/mbailin2.html

the reason i am relatively hesitant to tell you specific techniques and
strategies is because i feel i eventually arrived at playing in this manner
intrinsically...and you probably will too. don't force yourself to play stuff
because it is advanced, or new, or avant-garde. it will force you into an
idiom that you probably won't enjoy. just allow things to come as they come.
just play and play and play and listen to ALL FORMS of improvised
music....your natural inclinations toward playing will eventually begin to
appear.

hope this helps.

ben o.

nr- genet "funeral rites"
np- bugge wesseltoft "moving" - --part1_46.17249823.2875f402_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #488 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com