From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #544 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, August 24 2001 Volume 03 : Number 544 In this issue: - Re:Cultural vs. regular Zionism Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism II Mike Patton & DEP hot thumbs o'riley harry partch RE: Mike Patton & DEP Re: Mike Patton & DEP Re: harry partch ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 2001 05:16:13 -0000 From: "Millie Gorgon" Subject: Re:Cultural vs. regular Zionism >>All of this without a mention of the crimes being done in the name of >Judaism as we speak. >Are you serious? (I don't know if I have permission to breath here), but I don't recall the recent JAZZ IN PARIS cd-reissues make any mention of the imperialistic crimes made on behalf of the French Empire, or any apology in the editions of Bachs Cantates. (Well, why not? Wouldn't it be great? I'm serious, R U Sirius, too?) If the Radical Jewish Culture Series -- (unlike Jazz in Paris it's intended to be MORE than a set of CDs and performances, right? Jazz in Paris does not claim to be Radical, either) -- has nothing to say about politics, about real things happening to real people, then why bother? If we start to/ or continue to confine Politics and Culture/Music to separate spheres, what then? We get equally useless self-referencing post-modernist/ feegood multiculturalist music and the $ "music" of Mtv. The only reason I would expect Zorn and the Radical Jewish Culture Series to have some sort of political position concerning Israel and Palestine is because the question is central to Jews all over the world. In general, if a group that claims to represent me commits crimes, then I would tend to want to decry these crimes. And I do. and so do most people, except when it interferes with their business or with their vision of their pure art. Rarely, though, do the “non-decry-ers” profess to be Radical. That is why Zappa, Chadbourne, (early) Dylan, Negativland, most local hardcore scenes, KRS-One, etc. are, in my opinion, such IMPORTANT figures - they soil(ed) their music with political topics, denying the separation between cultural and political activities. > Is it absurd to speak of "radical" culture? I would say the course Which arts and letters has taken over past hundred years or so shows clearly that "radical" is not a strictly political term. I would not say that it is a strictly political term either, but that it INCLUDES the political, as well as the cultural. Refusing the separation between politics and art is, to me, approaching a definition the word radical. That is how the Situationiste Internationale, for example, were radical and how abstract expressionists were not. >I don't think that expressing ones self in terms of a sort of Jewish culture necessitates taking an overt political stance regarding Israel in one's music. We simply do not know the true feelings of perhaps ANY of the people on these discs regarding current Middle East politics. For all we know, their stances could range from one extreme to the other. Does anybody else see that as a problem?- that Zionism/anti-Zionism isn't even part of the discourse in a Radical Jewish group of artists? In doing research (albeit not super in-depth) for an article on Zorn, the political silence around him seems deafening. Who benefits when Radical Art today scarcely does anything but re-signify within its own field? What would Dada do (WWDD)? I do see your points, Stephen and Robert, about the ethnic exclusivity of the Radical Jewish Culture Series – who better to reinterpret “Jewish” music than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? However, shouldn’t we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical group of artists? mg - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:19:27 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 05:16:13AM -0000, Millie Gorgon wrote: =20 > (Well, why not? Wouldn't it be great? I'm serious, R U Sirius, too?) = If the Radical Jewish Culture Series -- (unlike Jazz in Paris it's inten= ded to be MORE than a set of CDs and performances, right? Jazz in Paris = does not claim to be Radical, either) -- has nothing to say about politi= cs, about real things happening to real people, then why bother? If we s= tart to/ or continue to confine Politics and Culture/Music to separate sp= heres, what then?=20 I don't think it's a matter of either seeing things as a binary split between "Politics" and "Culture/Music" or "confining" them to separate spheres, but more as an issue of what the series has dealt with so far. I suspect that if an artist in the series had a project that directly addressed this political issue, it would come out. But I doubt that there's any sort of cabal that's figured out every detail of what they will address and what the issues are. From what I read, and as is confirmed to some extent by Mandel's recent article, the whole thing is kinda ad-hoc, and seems to consist of little more than an aggregation of projects that touch upon Jewish life in some way. Jewish culture is kind of vast. While the RJC series doesn't directly address the issues that most interest you, there are also a lot of other issues related to Jewish culture, directly or indirectly, that it doesn't yet address.=20 > We get equally useless self-referencing post-modernist/ feegood multicu= lturalist music and the $ "music" of Mtv. The only reason I would expect= Zorn and the Radical Jewish Culture Series to have some sort of politica= l position concerning Israel and Palestine is because the question is cen= tral to Jews all over the world. In general, if a group that claims to r= epresent me commits crimes, then I would tend to want to decry these crim= es. And I do. and so do most people, except when it interferes with the= ir business or with their vision of their pure art. Rarely, though, do t= he =93non-decry-ers=94 profess to be Radical. While the issue is important, is it necessarily "central"? It may appear so to some, but Zorn seems to be dealing more directly with other aspects of Judaism. I also suspect that, like what I suspect is true of a great many of us, Zorn may recognize the issue as complex and have a lot of ambivalence about it. While I protest some of the actions of Israel's leadership and military, I also recognize the very real situations and fears within which they happen. And demonizing either side does nothing to solve the situation. And I have a hunch that you may be inferring more or different meanings from the term "Radical", in terms of political/social viewpoint, than may be intended. Remember that one can be a radical in many different directions and along many different axes. As has been shown repeatedly, someone whose position in the arts is radical might well be extremely normative, or possibly radical in an unexpected direction, when it comes to other issues. Look at, for example, Charles Gayle's music (which at least some call radical) vs. his political views, or the way that many of the 60s leftist radicals were nonetheless quite conservative when it came to gender relations. > That is why Zappa, Chadbourne, (early) Dylan, Negativland, most local h= ardcore scenes, KRS-One, etc. are, in my opinion, such IMPORTANT figures = - - they soil(ed) their music with political topics, denying the separation= between cultural and political activities. I'm reminded that, if I recall the story correctly, Jazz producer Orrin Keepnews kept a large sign on his wall saying "Important to whom?" > I would not say that it is a strictly political term either, but that i= t INCLUDES the political, as well as the cultural. Refusing the separati= on between politics and art is, to me, approaching a definition the word = radical. That is how the Situationiste Internationale, for example, were= radical and how abstract expressionists were not. Well, some would consider the abstract expressionists to have been radical. Which again goes to show that you can't assume too much from the use of the word. =20 > Does anybody else see that as a problem?- that Zionism/anti-Zionism isn= 't even part of the discourse in a Radical Jewish group of artists? In d= oing research (albeit not super in-depth) for an article on Zorn, the pol= itical silence around him seems deafening. Who benefits when Radical Art= today scarcely does anything but re-signify within its own field? What = would Dada do (WWDD)? Do you see it as Radical Art's responsibility to "benefit" any given group? Might it be that the artists, while agreeing on many things, do not have a consensus on this issue, or might remain ambivalent? After all, one of my ensembles contains two fish-eating near-vegetarians, one hardcore vegan, and two carnivores, so we tend not to make statements as part of our music on food issues, though we feel and speak strongly as a group on other matters. > I do see your points, Stephen and Robert, about the ethnic exclusivity = of the Radical Jewish Culture Series =96 who better to reinterpret =93Jew= ish=94 music than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? How= ever, shouldn=92t we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical= group of artists? No, I don't think so. - --=20 |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:04:13 -0700 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism > I'm reminded that, if I recall the story correctly, Jazz producer > Orrin Keepnews kept a large sign on his wall saying "Important to > whom?" Damn, he was smart. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 2001 11:09:38 -0000 From: "Millie Gorgon" Subject: Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism II >far. I suspect that if an artist in the series had a project that >directly addressed this political issue, it would come out. But I >doubt that there's any sort of cabal that's figured out every detail >of what they will address and what the issues are. From what I read, that's my point -- the artists don't address anything but each others' work, Zorn doesn't, the kinds of artists chosen by Zorn to record don't. >Jewish culture is kind of vast. While the RJC series doesn't directly >address the issues that most interest you, there are also a lot of >other issues related to Jewish culture, directly or indirectly, that >it doesn't yet address. issues that are top headlines worldwide every single day are not simply issues that "interest me." a lot of lame artists are often worry about muddling their ideal artistic product in the debris that is real life - politics, means of production (of their product), the human body itself even (e.g. Jarrett the human cough suppressant). is this Zorn's concern? >ambivalence about it. While I protest some of the actions of Israel's >leadership and military, I also recognize the very real situations and >fears within which they happen. And demonizing either side does >nothing to solve the situation. maybe we shouldn't get into this, but at least let me digress for 2 short sentences: 1.read yer Chomsky! and 2.the UN (minus the US and Israel) is "demonizing" Israel also. >Do you see it as Radical Art's responsibility to "benefit" any given >group? Might it be that the artists, while agreeing on many things, do >not have a consensus on this issue, or might remain ambivalent? After if they don't have a consensus on the issue, then we ought to hear some sort of discussion amongst them (on disc, or off). if they remain ambivalent they should form an opinion! >>than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? However, shouldn’t we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical group of artists? > >No, I don't think so. now we've gotten somewhere. we can continue the argument, but it seems to have wandered a ways from the original question, and from appropriate zorn-list content. our argument now is "what is the role of art in society." i understand your view, but i disagree. i do expect political discourse in a group of Radical anythings, and frankly, Zorn and the RJCS falls short of radicalism in any meaningful sense. yes, the SOUND is radical, but it's fartin' in the wind as my grandfather would say. Zorn is a musical giant to me, but narrows his scope too much, becoming a midget on the z-axis. mg - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:34:00 +0200 From: Jeroen de Boer Subject: Mike Patton & DEP From a pressrelease: Mike Patton, vocalist for Faith No More/Mr. Bungle/Fantomas will be handling the vocals on the next Dillinger Escape Plan EP, which will be out sometime before 2002. Jeroen - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeroen de Boer content director Cyberslag Content Providing Damsterdiep 15 9711SG Groningen The Netherlands t +31(0)503115496 m +31 (0)624814506 f +31(0)503119447 jeroen@cyberslag.nl www.cyberslag.nl - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:55:51 EDT From: CuneiWay@aol.com Subject: hot thumbs o'riley It's actually a Jim Pembroke (voice & leader [?]) of Wigwam, one of Finland's best known progressive rock acts) solo album. Jim has about 5-6 other albums from the 70's/early 80's, & Wigwam themselves have an additional 8-9 albums. Steve F. > I've just got CD entitled Hot Thumbs O'Riley - Wicked Ivory. >Line-up is mainly Skandinavian /with Pekka Pohjola on bass/ >Music is crazy mix of blues, comedy and psychedelia a la early Frank >Zappa. >Could someone give me more info about this group /?/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:58:02 EDT From: CuneiWay@aol.com Subject: harry partch Matt Mitchell wrote: >Isn't it time for Harry >>Partch to be recognised as one of the great American composers? Well, in some parts of Silver Spring, MD, he certainly is! Steve F. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:56:53 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= Subject: RE: Mike Patton & DEP > From a pressrelease: > > Mike Patton, vocalist for Faith No More/Mr. Bungle/Fantomas will be handling > the vocals on the next Dillinger Escape Plan EP sorry but, what's dillinger escape plan? thanks, efrén n.p: Kramer "Let me explain something to you about art" (Tzadik- one of those releases i would never recommend to anyone) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - > Jeroen de Boer > content director Cyberslag Content Providing > Damsterdiep 15 9711SG Groningen The Netherlands > > t +31(0)503115496 > m +31 (0)624814506 > f +31(0)503119447 > jeroen@cyberslag.nl > > www.cyberslag.nl > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > - _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:11:37 +0200 From: Jeroen de Boer Subject: Re: Mike Patton & DEP Hi Efr=E9n, Dillinger Escape Plan is an hardcore-ensemble from (I think) Philadelphia. It's one of those bands whose music is really hard to describe. They basically have a metalsound, but their music is a combination of all kinds of genres, put together in a kind of Waked City way. They don't sound like Naked City all however. I saw them perform live a couple of months ago, and although I knew they ha= d quite a reputation they totally blew me away. Just check them out, because they deserve to be heard. Here's a review of their debut-album Calculating Infinity (from the allmusicguide): AMG EXPERT REVIEW: Apparently, Dillinger has solved the complex equation asked of their album title and the answer is strange and complex. Oddly enough, Relapse is marketing this as "math metal," a term that almost fits. Having enjoyed Dillinger's bombastic, grindy punk debut mini-album, Calculating Infinity seems ten times more explosive and brilliant, as it spews forth anger and venomous misery in a way that is comparable only to spontaneous combustion. Continuing to expand upon the ultra-aggressive, deliciously technical approach they adopt toward grind and hardcore, the band has fully embraced its amazing knack for rhythmic melody on tracks lik= e "*#" and "Weekend Sex Change." Fear not Dillinger fans, for there is enough uncontrolled hatred and violence on this release to satisfy five bands, let alone New Jersey's native sons. This album is both screechingly abrasive, a= s evident on "Clip the Apex... Accept Institution," and morbidly beautiful, with the Slint-ish acoustic passages of "The Running Board." "Destro's Secret" contains such an amazing progressive dance between guitar and bass that one could only compare it to the mighty Cynic. The drumming rates near the top of any extreme metal drumming, combining an offbeat jazz style with an aggressive Cryptopsy-like technical approach. The vocals are raw, disturbing, and creepy causing a strange chill to crawl up the spine. Who will appreciate Dillinger then? The eclectics and musicians who understand the complexity of the band and genius chaotically held within. =8B Jason Hundey Jeroen >> From a pressrelease: >>=20 >> Mike Patton, vocalist for Faith No More/Mr. Bungle/Fantomas will be > handling >> the vocals on the next Dillinger Escape Plan EP >=20 >=20 > sorry but, what's dillinger escape plan? >=20 > thanks, >=20 > efr=E9n >=20 > n.p: Kramer "Let me explain something to you about art" (Tzadik- one of > those releases i would never recommend to anyone) =20 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeroen de Boer content director Cyberslag Content Providing Damsterdiep 15 9711SG Groningen The Netherlands t +31(0)503115496 m +31 (0)624814506 f +31(0)503119447 jeroen@cyberslag.nl www.cyberslag.nl - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:22:22 -0400 From: "David Beardsley" Subject: Re: harry partch He would be 100 this summer. * David Beardsley * http://biink.com * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 8:58 AM Subject: harry partch > Matt Mitchell wrote: > > >Isn't it time for Harry > >>Partch to be recognised as one of the great American composers? > > Well, in some parts of Silver Spring, MD, he certainly is! > > Steve F. > > - > > - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #544 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. 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