From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #666 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, December 31 2001 Volume 03 : Number 666 In this issue: - Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: most satisfying releases of 2001 Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: most satisfying releases of 2001 Odp: the Gift/Ribot Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: Plunderphonics 101 Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: plunderphonics/etc. Re: plunderphonics/etc. dated musik. 2001 "Best Of" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:32:32 -0700 From: "M Pathos" Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. Oswald's ideas were visionary, but conceptualism and formalism in music (and art in general) are rarely persuasive on their own; fatally, his pastiches lack emotional resonance. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:05:47 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: most satisfying releases of 2001 >From: SUGAR in their vitamins? >i'm very excited about all the byg-actuel re-issues. >the alan silva stuff is excellent... i'd also >add in a big recommendation for the >aacm re-issue of 'les stances a sophie' (lp+cd). Yeah, I had Les Stances a Sophie on my reissues list for 2000. I had to list the other BYG releases for this year because I couldn't get them in 2000. I also bought the Alan Silva release during the summer but sadly could not include it as I've been unable to play it on my turntable. Does anyone know where one can buy a belt for an old Marantz? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:11:14 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. > Oswald's ideas were visionary, but conceptualism and formalism in music (and > art in general) are rarely persuasive on their own; fatally, his pastiches > lack emotional resonance. > > Is something called "Plunderphonics" designed for "emotional resonance" purposes? I think Oswald is -- in the best and most creative sense -- a prankster, pure and simple. I would sooner compare him to Penn & Teller than to John Zorn. skip heller http://www.skipheller.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:10:08 -0600 From: Craig Rath Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. >Perhaps I'm spoiled; having been raised on sample-based albums (Dj Shadow's >"Endtroducing", Future sound of london records, any number of other >sample-based records) that work together as pop-cultural pastiche as well as >interesting aural experiences as well as cohesive albums, something like this >just isn't impressive, at all. You are comparing two very different things here. Comparing FSOL's sampling to Oswald's sampling is like comparing Angus Young to Robert Fripp. They are not even attempting to operate on the same level. >Again; anyone can sample a bunch of riffs, hooks, excerpts, sounds, etc; it >takes skill to put them all together into something coherent (instead of >Oswald's "just throwing them all together" approach). I cannot see how you can consider Oswald's approach to be "just throwing them all together". Have you ever listened to Plexure? Even if you haven't heard that piece, his other plunderphonics works can hardly be considered "thrown together". To me his works are very coherent. If you look beyond the hard-wired standards that most music snobs call "coherent", you'll see a lot more going on than initially meets the ear. Granted - a lot of what he has done cannot be considered "easy listening" in the same vein as FSOL. But that is beside the point - he isn't attempting to capture the mainstream ambient/dance/electronic/whatever market. To dismiss what he has done because it doesn't resonate with you at this time doesn't mean that what he has done is any less important than what a pop group like FSOL has done. Just my opinion - take it for what it's worth. Considering most of my music purchases of late have been things my friends consider unlistenable (Aube and other Japanese noise artists in particular), I don't really expect too many people to agree with me. But I also get irritated when people shoot something down without really giving it a fair shake. Craig M. Rath H: fripp@mn.mediaone.net W: rathc@questarweb.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:18:27 EST From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: most satisfying releases of 2001 In a message dated 12/30/01 8:04:39 AM, bashline@hotmail.com writes: << Seminal ear-shattering experiences of 2001: 1) Xenakis, La Legende d'Eer, Montaigne 2) Sachiko M & Toshimaru Nakamaura, Do, Erstwhile >> wow, you would have loved the six hour DJ set at Experimental Intermedia last December I put together (with help from Mike Goodstein of WFMU). I included all of Legende d'Eer and the 37 minute track from do as two of the three core pieces which I built the program around. the third was Robert Ashley's Automatic Writing, in a different vein from those two, but just as mindblowing. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:23:35 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: the Gift/Ribot Zorn/ribot duo is great; i just lov the feeeling of 'quick work' you get while listening to those tracks. The W&K tracks are also great - MR plays a lesser role in those, though. The best album to feature Ribot is IMHO Filmworks II. > You should definitely listen to "Filmworks III" (if you haven't). There's > some of Ribot's most inventive, amazing performances there, specially his > duo w/ Zorn (Hollywood Hotel) and the music for the Weiden & Kennedy > Publicity company. Just an opinion. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:27:27 EST From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. In a message dated 12/30/01 5:10:31 PM, fripp@mn.mediaone.net writes: << I cannot see how you can consider Oswald's approach to be "just throwing them all together". Have you ever listened to Plexure? Even if you haven't heard that piece, his other plunderphonics works can hardly be considered "thrown together". To me his works are very coherent. >> I agree, you guys are being awfully tough on Oswald. sure, some of his work sounds dated, but he was definitely groundbreaking in this genre. much of the original plunderphonic record holds up pretty well, specifically the first eight or nine tracks. and whoever cited DJ Shadow, Endtroducing also sounds pretty dated now, and that's only five years old, not thirteen like Plunderphonic. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:08:56 +0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: Plunderphonics 101 > >From: "M Pathos" > > >Oswald's ideas were visionary, fatally, his pastiches > >lack emotional resonance. But they're sure a lot of fun...if you don't try to read too much into 'em! np: Kyoaku No Intention _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:50:21 -0700 From: "M Pathos" Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. Is music designed for pranks? > Is something called "Plunderphonics" designed for "emotional resonance" purposes? I think Oswald is -- in the best and most creative sense -- a prankster, pure and simple. I would sooner compare him to Penn & Teller than to John Zorn. skip heller http://www.skipheller.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:49:47 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. On Sun, Dec 30, 2001 at 08:50:21PM -0700, M Pathos wrote: > Is music designed for pranks? Consider Haydn's "Surprise Symphony" or the opening of King Crimson's "21st Century Schizoid Man". - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:47:02 -0700 From: "M Pathos" Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. I suppose a one-line rejoinder begs to engender such responses in return. While it's possible to portray irony and humor in music, I would contend that this is making poor use of the richness of possibilities open to organizers of sound. As an admittedly imperfect analogy, I'd draw your attention to the durability of (verbal/written) jokes in the canonical works of world literature. We need to be explained the funny bits in Chaucer or Shakespeare (my Western frame of reference; equally true, I expect, of Oriental works as Occidental ones) and they remain unfunny after being explained, whereas the same authors' more serious comments on the human condition seem to translate transparently to the contemporary. > Consider Haydn's "Surprise Symphony" or the opening of King Crimson's "21st Century Schizoid Man". - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:49:35 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. On Sun, Dec 30, 2001 at 09:47:02PM -0700, M Pathos wrote: > I suppose a one-line rejoinder begs to engender such responses in return. > While it's possible to portray irony and humor in music, I would contend > that this is making poor use of the richness of possibilities open to > organizers of sound. Limiting music to just jokes might be a "poor use..." But limiting music to exclude them would be, too. > As an admittedly imperfect analogy, I'd draw your attention to the > durability of (verbal/written) jokes in the canonical works of world > literature. We need to be explained the funny bits in Chaucer or Shakespeare > (my Western frame of reference; equally true, I expect, of Oriental works as > Occidental ones) and they remain unfunny after being explained, whereas the > same authors' more serious comments on the human condition seem to translate > transparently to the contemporary. Dunno if I'd want to choose between a good laugh now and a solemn posterity. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:59:01 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc. > Is music designed for pranks? >> Why not? Any language is available for any use you like. If you can conceive it as a prank, you can execute it as a prank. Penn & Teller have made a whole magic science based on this, and -- prior to them -- I think people would have dismissed that very idea as shallow and destined for a short shelf-life. But they -- like Oswald -- are the greatest of pranksters, posessed of flawless technique. I like pranks, especially victimless ones. My first exposure to PLUNDERPHONICS made me feel like I had just been in on the best April Fool's Day anyone had ever pulled on my stereo. Short answer -- you can design music for any experience you like, be it love, protest, humor, whatever. skip h NP: guy klucevsek, citrus my love - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 03:46:59 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: dated musik. it's interesting, the thread about plunderphonic sounding dated. while i really like what oswald i've heard (i have only heard one album, all the way through, once, and no, i don't remember which one), i think the true test of whether something can artistically hold up is its sounding dated or not. i think that this is a very common symptom of electronic and computer music - as the medium advances, previous endeavours in it sound, well, pretty bad. occasional things override this - the early reich tape pieces, stockhausen's gesang der junglinge, and music for airports to name a few - but a whole hell of a lot of tape/electronic/computer music sounds like total ass now - i.e. mort subotnick's the wild bull. pop/rock is so much the same way, too, maybe moreso. everyone knows that peter frampton sounds like total shit now. but it was groundbreaking then and it's interesting, if kitschy, now. so... i forgot what my point was... k8. - ----- nothing in moderation. (ernie kovacs) where there's a mission, there's a missionary. (jim altieri) k a t e p e t e r s o n composer / performer UFOrbK8@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:54:54 -0800 From: hatta Subject: 2001 "Best Of" - --============_-1202329994==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Well it's NYE: finally time for a top 10...plus Makers and 'High Fidelity' put me in the mood for lists ;) My Favorite Music of the year 2001: No Neck Blues Band 'Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones But Names Can Never Hurt Me' (Revenant) Keith Rowe/Toshimaru Nakamura 'Weather Sky' (Erstwhile Records) Secret Chiefs 3 'Book M' (Web of Mimicry) Aiko Shimada 'Blue Marble' (Tzadik) Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash 'Sweeter than the Day' (Songlines) Radiohead 'Amnesiac' (Elektra) Bjork 'Vespertine' (Elektra) Wayne Horvitz & the 4+1 Ensemble: 'Through a Window' (Avant) Freight Elevator Quartet 'Fix it in Post' (C74) Kim Cascone 'Dust Theories' (C74) Sachiko M/Toshimaru Nakamura 'Do' (Erstwhile Records) Personal Music Discovery of the Year: AMM (thanks to this list) The Best Live Shows I saw: John Zorn with the Seattle Chamber Players ( Benaroya Hall, 02.25.01) Bang on a Can Allstars (Moore Theatre, 03.11.01 ) Eyvind Kang's classical composition 'Petrified Wood' (Consolidated Works, 03.14.01 ) The Residents (EMP, 03.30.01) AMM (04.11.01, Old Church Portland OR) Sex Mob (09.01.01, Bumbershoot) Critters Buggin w/ Bachir and Mustapha Attar (09.28.01, Sit n' Spin) Critters Buggin w/ Bachir and Mustapha Attar (09.29.01, Viking Union, Bellingham WA) Dave Douglas's Witness (10.07.01, Sit n' Spin) Horvitz 4+1 / Acoustic Zony Mash (11.09.01, Tractor Tavern) Books published this year: David Mitchell 'number9dream' Haruki Murakami 'Sputnik Sweetheart' Scott Carrier 'Running After Antelope" McSweeney's Bill Waterson, 'Calvin & Hobbes: Sunday Pages 1985-1995' Movies: 1) Mulholland Drive (David Lynch) 2) Man Who Wasn't There (Coen Bros.) 3) Royal Tenenbaums (Wes Anderson) 4) Battle Royal 5) AI (Steven Spielberg) 6) Vanilla Sky (Cameron Crowe) 7) Monsters Inc. (Pixar) 8) Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (Kevin Smith) 9) Memento (Christopher Nolan ) DVD's Twin Peaks (Lynch/Frost) Dogma (Smith) Untitled (Crowe) Citizen Kane (Wells) Akira Cowboy Bebop Ultimate Collection 2001: A Space Odyssey (Kubrick) Memento (Christopher Nolan ) R.I.P.: Ken Kesey ("Never give a inch!") George Harrison happy new year, Robert - -- Hobbes: "Is it a right to remain ignorant?" Calvin: "I don't know, but I refuse to find out!" -Bill Waterson, 'Calvin & Hobbes' - --============_-1202329994==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" 2001 "Best Of"
Well it's NYE: finally time for a top 10...plus Makers and 'High Fidelity' put me in the mood for lists ;)

My Favorite Music of the year 2001:
No Neck Blues Band 'Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones But Names Can Never Hurt Me' (Revenant)
Keith Rowe/Toshimaru Nakamura 'Weather Sky'  (Erstwhile Records)
Secret Chiefs 3 'Book M' (Web of Mimicry)
Aiko Shimada 'Blue Marble' (Tzadik)
Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash 'Sweeter than the Day' (Songlines)
Radiohead 'Amnesiac'  (Elektra)
Bjork 'Vespertine'  (Elektra)
Wayne Horvitz & the 4+1 Ensemble: 'Through a Window' (Avant)
Freight Elevator Quartet 'Fix it in Post' (C74)
Kim Cascone 'Dust Theories' (C74)
Sachiko M/Toshimaru Nakamura  'Do' (Erstwhile Records)

Personal Music Discovery of the Year:
AMM (thanks to this list)


The Best Live Shows I saw:
John Zorn with the Seattle Chamber Players ( Benaroya Hall, 02.25.01)
Bang on a Can Allstars (Moore Theatre, 03.11.01 )
Eyvind Kang's classical composition 'Petrified Wood' (Consolidated Works, 03.14.01 )
The Residents  (EMP, 03.30.01)
AMM (04.11.01, Old Church Portland OR)
Sex Mob  (09.01.01, Bumbershoot)
Critters Buggin w/ Bachir and Mustapha Attar (09.28.01, Sit n' Spin)
Critters Buggin w/ Bachir and Mustapha Attar (09.29.01, Viking Union, Bellingham WA)
Dave Douglas's Witness  (10.07.01, Sit n' Spin)
Horvitz 4+1 / Acoustic Zony Mash (11.09.01, Tractor Tavern)
Books published this year:
David Mitchell 'number9dream'
Haruki Murakami 'Sputnik Sweetheart'
Scott Carrier 'Running After Antelope"
McSweeney's
Bill Waterson, 'Calvin & Hobbes: Sunday Pages 1985-1995'


Movies:
1) Mulholland Drive (David Lynch)
2) Man Who Wasn't There (Coen Bros.)
3) Royal Tenenbaums (Wes Anderson)
4) Battle Royal
5) AI (Steven Spielberg)
6) Vanilla Sky (Cameron Crowe)
7) Monsters Inc. (Pixar)
8) Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (Kevin Smith)
9) Memento (Christopher Nolan )


DVD's
Twin Peaks (Lynch/Frost)
Dogma (Smith)
Untitled (Crowe)
Citizen Kane (Wells)
Akira
Cowboy Bebop Ultimate Collection
2001: A Space Odyssey (Kubrick)
Memento (Christopher Nolan )

R.I.P.:
Ken Kesey ("Never give a inch!")
George Harrison

happy new year,
Robert
--
Hobbes: "Is it a right to remain ignorant?"
Calvin: "I don't know, but I refuse to find out!"
 -Bill Waterson, 'Calvin & Hobbes'
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