From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #702 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, January 24 2002 Volume 03 : Number 702 In this issue: - Re: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) Re: kraftwerk Re: Kraftwerk Re: Jost on Ornette Re: Crispell Re: Ornette Re: who understands harmolodics? and jazz journalism Re: a person without qualities Fwd: tangelos. basic fennesz Q Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) Kraftwerk Re:ornette Re: London The First Time ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:52:02 -0800 From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" Subject: Re: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) From: http://www.patmethenygroup.com/scrapbook/interviews.cfm Hi Pat, Can you give a succinct definition of harmolodics? If you use it in your playing or composing, how do you apply it? hi, the only person i know who could give you a definition of what "harmolodics" means would be ornette coleman and i guarantee it would be fascinating but not succinct. if you ever get the chance to ask him, be sure to bring your best thinking cap to decipher the answer. i also recommend that you view any critic or musician who uses this term as if they know what they're talking about with extreme suspicion. (only exceptions: don cherry and charlie haden) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:03:53 -0600 From: "Ben Axelrad" Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) i got SPY VS. SPY over a year ago and still haven't made it past the fifth or sixth track. never really understood what all the hoopla was about, but then again i also traded my copy of THE BIG GUNDOWN. >From: Tosh >To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:45:31 -0800 > >This is a great conversation! What I am going to do is play all the >early Ornette CD's in a row. I will sit there in front of the two >speakers and LISTEN. With respect to this current conversation about >Ornette - what are your opinions on Zorn's SPY VS. SPY? I know this >has been discussed in the past, but I am curious in knowing what are >the current thoughts with respect with the ongoing commentary on this >list. >-- >Tosh Berman >TamTam Books >http://www.tamtambooks.com > >- > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:10:48 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: Re: kraftwerk i humbly, strongly disagree with computer world or the mix as places to start with kraftwerk. i like them both, but they're beat-heavy, and kraftwerk were at their best in the etherea. autobahn, trans-europe express or radio activity are all better. i'm not even considering here the early rolf & florian 'kraftwerk' albums (there were three, i think) which are also great. not electronics -- sparse chamber stuff. really great, if you can find 'em. kg _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:17:47 -0600 From: "Brummer, Charlie" Subject: Re: Kraftwerk Well, it's mighty hard to go wrong with Kraftwerk. My top four: 1. Trans-Europe Express--the whole thing is fantastic, but "showroom dummies" is essential. 2. Man Machine--"the robots" is my favorite here. 3. Computer World--certainly very good throughout 4. Autobahn--OK, but less wonderful than the others I would avoid The Mix--never found it too compelling myself, particularly since the others are easily available. I would strongly suggest limiting yourself to three, rather than one, Kraftwerk discs! Charlie - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:34:16 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Handley Subject: Re: Jost on Ornette Jost Gebers wrote: >....These very subtle sound > manipulations are used by Ornette Coleman in two > sorts of context and for > different purposes: first, as he says himself, to > give his music that human > vocal sound, which is such a marked contrast to the > sterilized tone quality > of West Coast jazz, in whose geographical vicinity > his music first became > known...; I appreciate the Gebers fragments, Bill; I need to go back to this book. But since Gebers brought it up: could someone please NAME SOME NAMES regarding this "sterilized tone quality" of "West Coast jazz"? To defend Ornette Coleman at the cost of denigrating improvisors like Konitz, Getz, Mulligan, Baker, Warne Marsh, and any number of other cool improvisors---all of whom, to my mind, are associated with the "West Coast" sound, and all of whom have shockingly nuanced tonal practices in their best performances, which would seem to me to include almost aggressive deviations from this mythical norm---would seem to me to be overcompensation, at the risk of reducing this view of intonation to a function of race. Not that race isn't a concern, but what the hell is meant by equating "West Coast" (say it: "white") imporvisors' tactics with "sterility"? Let's get specific. - -----s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:29:37 -0800 From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" Subject: Re: Crispell Crispell / Hauser / Kleeb / Liemgruber / Plenar: Behind the Night X-Talk BW049 (CD) 1995 Marilyn Crispell (p-1,2,4,5,6,7; "sustained piano"-3; voc-1,8) Hildegard Kleeb (p; bowed p) Elvira Plenar (p) Urs Leimgruber (ss; ts; voc; bell) Fritz Hauser (d; perc) [Notes: Track 5 is Crispell, Kleeb, and Plenar all on one piano. 4 tracks between track "B" and "C" actually have no titles.] - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:20:32 +0100 From: "Remco Takken" Subject: Re: Ornette - ----- Original Message ----- From: dennis summers the "ear" that others on this list have, I don't notice or mind the "out-of-tuneness" which may seem like sacrilege to some of you. He doesn't sound any more out of tune to me than many early blues music which I (and many others) find closely related. - ---------------------- Remco Takken Enters: R'n'B connaisseur Skip Heller may like the fact that, unlike the young John Coltrane, Ornette was reportedly thrown out of r'n'b bands for playing out of tune constantly. Now to really upset people. I have tried repeatedly, over some 20 years to "get" Cecil Taylor. Based on my musical interests, I understand that I should love him. - ---------------- Remco Again: Music is not a calculation of stuff, like; if I love polytonality, improvisation and rhythmic invention, SHOULD automatically love Cecil Taylor. I am very much into his piano work myself, but I really hesitate to buy anymore of his group recordings. I just feel he isn't capable of interplay. Plus I can't follow his decisions of who to put in his groups. At the 2000 North Sea Jazz Festival I witnessed the best and the worst performance in the same hall, both were by Cecil Taylor. His solo concert was later broadcasted on Dutch National radio, it was sheer brilliance. His trio with cellist Tristan Honsinger and guitarist Frankie Douglas, later the same evening, was an insult to the intelligence of the audience. Two days later, Taylor left his German ensemble (with drummer Paul Lovens among others) out in the cold when he brought this horrible group over to Berlin, presenting it as his 'new band', without telling his original group first. They were all waiting to get on stage. - ----------------- Maybe, it's just a question of taste:-) Hey, I still love the Sex Pistols. Which to me was the Ornette Coleman Quartet of the '70s, drugs, chaos and all. - ------------ Except that the bassplayer was constantly out of tune. Thanks for reminding me about the Sex Pistols anyway. Regards, Remco Takken np Sex Pistols live at chelmsford prison 1976 (with the great Glen Matlock still on bass) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:17:31 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics? and jazz journalism >From: Skip Heller >Read any early issue of ROLLING STONE, espec if the piece is on Dylan or >Lennon. There's that ongoing vibe that pop/folk forms "must be considered >as high art". Which is a questionable thing to say, to my mind. Why is >there a need for some sort of pedigree? If a thing succeeds, it's doing its >job. Stravinsky is great. Earl Scruggs is great. To put one on a high >plane and the other on a low plane is bogus. But there was that movement >in >journalism by the late sixties to "elevate" rock to some kind of >seriousness. Never mind the fact that rock music didn't need that kind of >pretense attatched to it. OK, Skip, I'm going to agree with you on this issue. The problem of privileging "high art" over the so-called "low" forms. We've agreed on this before. But I see the problem much differently than you do. You see this problem above as "intellectualism." I see it as a lack of adequate intellect. An inability to completely think through the problem of the "high" and the "low" and the resort to a cliche--making the "low" into the "high." In short then, you see the problem as one of "being intellectual." I see it as the problem of "being insufficiently intellectual." _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:51:39 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: Re: a person without qualities the haino/bailey and haino/bailey/barre philips are both really nice. parts of the new fushitsusha are a little disappointing (haino's a good hand percussionist, but he's not a drummer), but parts are great. the chance to really hear the bass is well worth the price (or is that where is started?) >From: Chris Selvig >(still have yet to get the Haino/Bailey CD, though). I >haven't heard the new duo version of Fushitsusha, though so far every >review I've seen has been positive. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:02:09 EST From: Eriedell@aol.com Subject: Fwd: tangelos. - --part1_39.2169d208.2981b431_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I look at the tangelo as the "bad sister" of the citrus family. She's fooled around with "designer genetics" much more so than her older sisters--no doubt from the influence of wayward science boys. While her other sisters may have once looked down upon their sister's judgement, there is no doubt that such youthful excursions and a few broken hearts have given the tangelo a presence worth her pain. Next to her sisters she draws the attention, "Who is that?" as well as the propositions, "May I have a bite?" I, however, enjoy most her promiscuity. With her easy-to-peel skin, she is much more eager to take her clothes off. If she is in the room, I will pass by both her sisters--voluptuous orange, and petite tangerine--and focus my attention and my lips on her. In a message dated 1/24/02 11:10:01 AM, UFOrbK8@aol.com writes: << do any of the rest of you like tangelos? i love their texture and that juicy feeling when i bite into one. not quite orange, not quite tangerine... [a pensive moment passes us all by.] k8 >> - --part1_39.2169d208.2981b431_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (rly-yc02.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.34]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINYC110-0124121001; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:10:01 -0500 Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYC28-0124120941; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:09:41 -0500 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16TnMk-0006ZV-00 for zorn-list-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:08:46 -0700 Received: from [152.163.225.105] (helo=imo-r09.mx.aol.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16TnMg-0006ZF-00 for zorn-list@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:08:42 -0700 Received: from UFOrbK8@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.25.) id f.17.221758ae (4572) for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:08:31 -0500 (EST) From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Message-ID: <17.221758ae.2981998f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:08:31 EST Subject: tangelos. To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 8 Sender: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk do any of the rest of you like tangelos? i love their texture and that juicy feeling when i bite into one. not quite orange, not quite tangerine... [a pensive moment passes us all by.] k8 - ----- [ .n o t h i n g i s w h a t i s s a i d. ] .k a t e p e t e r s o n. .c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r. http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable) - - - --part1_39.2169d208.2981b431_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:08:47 +0100 From: "\"*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-." Subject: basic fennesz Q > >Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:05:40 +0800 >From: jmcazurin >Subject: basic fennesz question > >Hello - > > I'm just wondering how 'Fennesz' is pronounced... Like Venice in English, but with an F at the beginning, i.e. "FEN-es". In Hungarian (the origin of the name), the 'sz' combination is pronounced like a regular 's' in English. (When 's' appears alone in Hungarian, it'= s like the English 'sh' sound.) >ps - my new girlfriend, on hearing a Fennesz track, said, "Whoa, sex >music!" - now I'm in love. and here's a response forwarded from the Fenman himself!: - -----Original Message----- From: fennesz Date: Thursday, January 24, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Zorn List Digest V3 #700 >women seem to have a much clearer view upon my music. >its not laptop, clicks n=B4whatever, its sex music! absolutely! >c > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:08:57 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Tosh > Ornette - what are your opinions on Zorn's SPY VS. SPY? I know this I'm not very enthousiast about that one - the weakest of zorn's electra pdiscs for sure (but take care that i'm not a coleman fan). - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:16:56 -0800 From: Tosh Subject: Kraftwerk I love Kraftwerk. I would get Trans Europe Express. After that get their 'Mix' album. It is sort of a greatest hits collection. Their live shows are (were) great! - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:33:15 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: Re:ornette Bill said to Skip: I'm left concluding from this exchange that you understand very little about harmolodics. Your dismissal struck me as pretty casual and unsupported. If you want to go that way, expect some debate. leading me, against my better judgement, to weigh in on this ornette debacle. i like much of ornette's stuff. some i find boring. and he's probably done more awful music than any other important jazz composer of the 20th century. in fact, i'm sure of it. but bill's comment brought to mind another aspect of Ornette the Naked Emperor. not one that changes the quality of his music, but one that maybe impacts his stead. i've read about harmolodics. i've been in a room with ornette when he explained harmolodics. everyone ooh'd and aah'd, but i don't think anyone in the room understood a word of it. i know i didn't. what's harmolodics? it's just the way ornette likes shit to sound. when ulmer's playing it, i know he's playing it. but when brandon ross plays a "threadgill solo" i know he's doing that, too. and it doesn't sound like the way brandon plays in harriet tubman. the difference is, ornette seems to feel the need to attach the way he likes shit to sound to academic trappings. if threadgill wanted to build and/or publicize a theoretical base for the way he likes shit to sound, i'm sure he could. it wouldn't make a difference either way, though, y'know what i mean? i'm sure to get roasted for this (unless everyone's tired of the subject, and i still have about 4 digests to read), but please don't tell me i don't know enough to back my opinion. also, Marcin said: I like the 88 band much. The bras arrangements are amazing. you're right. i'd never noticed before, but when i looked closely there they were. jamaladeen looks pretty hot in that black push-up. kurt _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:01:18 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nick=20Cain?= Subject: Re: London >I'm going to London from Feb. 4 to 7. Is there any live spot of jazz or avant garde? Feb 4: - -Caroline Kraabel / Charlotte Hug / John Edwards + Mark Wastell / Phil Durrant; Bonnington (a performance space run by Jonathan and Adam Bohman), 8pm Feb 6: - -Quatuor Accorde (Tony Wren / Phil Durrant / Mark Wastell / Charlotte Hug) + Poco Clarinet Trio (Alex Ward / Chris Cundy / Mindy Lee); Red Rose, 8:15pm Feb 7: - -limitedNOISE presents "Seven Reasons Why Performance Art Should Be Banned"; Ryans (a performance space run by Alan Wilkinson), 8pm - -Nigel Burch & the Fleapit Orchestra + Nev Hawkins + Lol Coxhill & Mike Walter + Bardeon + Poor Aborted Fish; The Klinker, 8:30pm Address details for all venues can be found on the February calendar on the LMC website: www.l-m-c.org.uk ===== www.info.net.nz/opprobrium __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:43:27 EST From: Brennansf@aol.com Subject: The First Time Strangely, for me something clicked when I first heard the sax begin to play on "Hair Pie Bake 1" on Trout Mask Replica. That awoke something, dim at the time, that took years to fully flower, but I can clearly recall the moment nearly twenty years later. (It was a New Years Eve, at that.) Jerry << Finally for all the non-musician what is it that attracts you to the avant-garde music? Are there any pieces/albums/composers that you remember to be your starting point? >> - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #702 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com