From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #711
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Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
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Zorn List Digest       Sunday, January 27 2002       Volume 03 : Number 711



In this issue:
-
       performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.
       Re: didn't anyone notice...  (and info on performance pieces for listservs)
       Re: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       Re: didn't anyone notice...  (and info on performance pieces for listservs)
       Re: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       High Infidelity
       Re: didn't anyone notice...  (and info on performance pieces for listservs)
       zorn's soft pieces...  and some other stuff.
       performance pieces not having anything to do with zorn?
       RE: college groups assembling avant-garde stuff.  (AKA - a post with content.)
       Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:03:13 EST
From: UFOrbK8@aol.com
Subject: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.

1. respond to an offencive email.
2. respond in the same fashion that the person who sent aforementioned email 
wrote (i.e., condescending, cruel, public).
3. repeat process ONCE ONLY.
4. watch the fallout.

kp, 12:01 p.m. CST, st. louis, MO.


- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>  
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:33:00 -0800
From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com>
Subject: Re: didn't anyone notice...  (and info on performance pieces for listservs)

First of all I don't think the Ornette Coleman conversation was dumb 
- - just a series of people expressing a viewpoint on a subject matter. 
Second, I am not really interested in your work (what I have seen or 
heard so far).

The format of this particular list is to share information and 
discuss John Zorn and his world - and whatever other artists and 
music that (may)lead to.  I think you are on the wrong list for the 
type of work you are doing. Also being part of this list, I don't 
like to be part of 'an art project.'  You have the right to make your 
art, but I also have the right not being part of the art.  So 
therefore I think your listing this project on the subject matter is 
a good idea.


- -- 
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:04:06 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

> From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:53:35 +0100
> To: "Skip Heller" <velaires@earthlink.net>, "Tosh" <tosh@loop.com>,
> <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
> Subject: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
> 
> 
> For  me, the album is a kind of 'rehearsal' - a first step in a way that
> eventualy gave us Torture garden. On this album, JZ makes OC's music sound
> like hardcore. he made this connetction more interesting on later albums.

Agreed, but I have never warmed up to JZ's hardcore stuff.  He seems to be
drawing from a later hardcore thing that I prefer, which only points up to
my personal Z defense -- NOBODY likes every record the guy has made (almost,
anyway).

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:07:25 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Re: didn't anyone notice...  (and info on performance pieces for listservs)

Hi,

I hate to go on with all this weird, continued postings, and I don't have
anything against anyone here, except for one person who seems to be pretty
unrespectful, (and it's not you, Kate).


> to anyone defending jon's position, that is your business.  i have been
told
> personally and publicly by a few people that as a "new subscriber" i have
"no
> right" to post "inane blatherings".

Do you really think that a list that offers maybe 60-70 e-mails daily is the
best place to insert those off-topic messages? I don't think this list is
pedantic at all. There have been really funny exchanges and, above all, lots
of respect from all the members and their respective opinions- which is
actually what this should be about, I guess.

> the idea of a performance piece for listservs i personally found amusing,
and
> i have used as a way to break up silly arguments (i.e. ORNETTE COLEMAN),
by
> quoting someone and responding with something silly, just to show that
> anyone's response to ANYTHING can be construed as silly or as incoherent
or
> as just plain dumb.  a lot of people have missed this point, alright.
that
> doesn't make my idea "quaint"...  i am in the midst of a bunch of pieces
> involving mass- and mis-communications, and this listserv has been great
> fodder.

There are many ways to cause distress on a list of this kind, without being
necessary to call it an experiment/performance. Just vow that you hate John
Coltrane or Anthony Braxton and you got it!!

> it seems that a recurring theme here is something to the effect of my age
/
> maturity, etc.  and that these things would have seemed like a good idea
when
> you were 18, blah blah.  i'm 23.  i don't owe anyone an apology for my
age,
> and if someone wants to rip me down publicly and be a jerk, someone i
presume
> is much older and from whom i would expect more maturity, i feel that i
have
> every right (1st amendement, anyone), to respond in kind.

That doesn't make sense. I'm 24, and several people here know it and it's
never been an excuse to despise my posts. As long as you are posting your
opinion with humbleness, sincerity, objectivity or for any other reasons
that you may think of, I don't think nobody will accuse you of being
"childish". Of course you don't owe any apologies, IMO, except when you are
insulting (and being insulted, I know that and I don't think it's right)  Is
it necessary to go so far?

Many people here have an astounding musical knowledge, and they're probably
older than us and THAT REALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE! It's called experience,
and I wouldn't argue about certain issues without having an appropiate
background to defend my position, unless I'm totally convinced that theyre
all wrong (I'm also stubborn, of course).

Thanks God these things are rare on this list.

Health,

Efrén del Valle

n.p: Fred Frith "Clearing"



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:10:59 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

> From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:04:06 -0800
> To: Marcin Gokieli <marcingokieli@go2.pl>, Tosh <tosh@loop.com>,
> <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
> 
> Agreed, but I have never warmed up to JZ's hardcore stuff.  He seems to be
> drawing from a later hardcore thing that I prefer, which only points up to
> my personal Z defense -- NOBODY likes every record the guy has made (almost,
> anyway).
> 
> sh

I meant "than I prefer".  sorry for such a blatant typo.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:19:51 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <keithmar@msn.com>
Subject: High Infidelity

>>>i am going to continue doing my performance pieces, mass
approval or not<<<

She won't continue for long if we refuse to be her reflecting
pool.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:39:20 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <wlt4@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: didn't anyone notice...  (and info on performance pieces for listservs)

>the idea of a performance piece for listservs i personally found amusing, 

Apparently you're the only one.  The simple fact is that this is completely
off-topic and has nothing to do with Zorn, music or even related topics.
The age issue comes up because of the signs of immaturity and not any
actual age: we've had members in their early teens who made valuable
contributions.  I've been on the list since '95 and can say that it's
definitely declined over the past year or two until I now delete far more
posts than I read.  

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:44:01 EST
From: UFOrbK8@aol.com
Subject: zorn's soft pieces...  and some other stuff.

here's something you people may or may not know about.

when zorn was a student at webster university, he wanted to do a series of 
pieces called "soft pieces", where he mailed partially decomposed or rotting 
objects / items / animals / etc. to random people around the country.  his 
composition teacher (who is my current composition teacher), liked the idea, 
but couldn't support it officially through school because it could be 
considered harassment and a federal offence to deal in mailing what could be 
construed as offencive objects to random people across the country.  i'm a 
little unclear as to whether or not he continued with the project (maybe 
someone here could fill me in?), but...

... there is my justification for doing my experiment.  art can bug people, 
detract people, annoy people, make people think it is trite and 
ill-conceived, make people angry, make people think the artist is stupid, 
etc.  the point is it doesn't matter.  it is what it is.  my general impetus 
for making "performance pieces" is that i think they are ridiculous - a la 
lamonte young.  lamonte young didn't make his "performance pieces" to ever 
hear them performed; it is a communication thing.  sometimes you can say 
things through something deemed "art" - silly, contrived, or otherwise - that 
you can't say just by writing a paragraph which no one will read.  i don't 
need a "reflecting pool"...  i write my posts for their own content, and i 
don't need the validation of responses, etc. i'm not asking for responses, 
especially public.  but i reserve my right to post whatever i want, whenever 
i want.

and don't give me a line about this list is completely dedicated to zorn, 
etc.  for the month or so i've been *active* on the list, i've seen fewer 
threads that directly relate to zorn than that relate to spinoff business 
much of which doesn't even involve him.

just my $.02.  i'm not sure how much that is in euros...

love,
  k8.

p.s. - tangelos live!


- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>  
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:46:44 EST
From: UFOrbK8@aol.com
Subject: performance pieces not having anything to do with zorn?

In a message dated 01.27.02 14:40:48, wlt4@mindspring.com writes:

>Apparently you're the only one.  The simple fact is that this is completely
>off-topic and has nothing to do with Zorn, music or even related topics.

you elude me.  how do performance pieces have nothing to do with zorn, music 
or even related topics?  performance art, free improv...  it all seems to tie 
in perfectly cohesively to me.

and i don't think i'm the only one...  there is a silent faction...  :)





- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>  
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:49:51 -0500
From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: college groups assembling avant-garde stuff.  (AKA - a post with content.)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I don't think money will be an issue, at least at first.  Through
fundraising and petitioning the student government for "official" status
(AKA giving us money) we can do what we will.  We also have the college
with performance spaces and rooms at our semi-disposal. The thing that
is bothering me is how to get the word out beyond my immediate group of
associates, to whom I can give my extended spiel.  I know that many with
in experimental circles dislike the term avant-garde and then many who
might have this bent don't associate with the term or find it too
ambiguous.  Is there away that I can condense the spiel into a sleek
enough description that could ignite the fire of experimental endeavors
among my peers?

 

On a side note: Does any one know anything about (or better yet involved
with) Beyond the Pale Productions in Bloomington, IN?  I believe their
website no longer exists.  Does it still exist?

 

Thank you all for suggestions and information.  It will be very useful.

 

Zach


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>I don&#8217;t think money will be an issue, at =
least
at first. &nbsp;Through fundraising and petitioning the student =
government for &#8220;official&#8221;
status (AKA giving us money) we can do what we will.&nbsp; We also have =
the
college with performance spaces and rooms at our semi-disposal. The =
thing that
is bothering me is how to get the word out beyond my immediate group of
associates, to whom I can give my extended spiel.&nbsp; I know that many =
with
in experimental circles dislike the term avant-garde and then many who =
might
have this bent don&#8217;t associate with the term or find it too
ambiguous.&nbsp; Is there away that I can condense the spiel into a =
sleek
enough description that could ignite the fire of experimental endeavors =
among
my peers?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>On a side note: Does any one know anything =
about (or
better yet involved with) Beyond the Pale Productions in =
</span></font><span
  style=3D'background:white'>Bloomington</span><span =
style=3D'background:white'>, </span><span
  style=3D'background:white'>IN</span><span =
style=3D'background:white'>?&nbsp; I believe
their website no longer exists.&nbsp; Does it still exist?</span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>Thank you all for suggestions and =
information.&nbsp;
It will be very useful.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;background:white'>Zach</span></font></p>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:11:44 EST
From: UFOrbK8@aol.com
Subject: Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.

In a message dated 01.27.02 14:55:56, fripp@mn.mediaone.net writes:

>If you had stuck to your original story that your off topic postings were
>meant to "break up the monotony" then I would have no beef with you other
>than being mildly annoyed at having a little more junk mail to sort through
>each day.  But you admitted that you were attempting to incite a reaction
>from people so you could "watch the fallout", which makes you no better
>than the generations of trolls who have cluttered up mailing lists for
>more years than you have been alive.

i did no such thing as admit that i was trying to incite a reaction.  the 
piece was a reactionary piece to what actually happened - the performance 
happened before i wrote the piece!  oh see...  now here's where it gets 
artsy...  <laugh>

i'm getting a good chuckle out of how people want to ignore this, but still 
feel the need to publicly tell me how immature i am, etc.  i never claimed to 
be some zenith of maturity at 23.  i don't need to be.  there is no M.O. to 
what i did except to break up the monotony as i've said, and how people 
choose to deal with that is their business.  it cracks me up, though, that 
people keep writing about it.  if you hate it so much, St. Ignora has blessed 
you with the delete function.  delete away!  you have my blessing!  but i 
think JZ would approve of what i'm doing...  and i think he'd be amused that 
so many people take a listserv dedicated to him so seriously that they can't 
find it within themselves to at least be mildly entertained that someone is 
creating faux art in the name of the avant-garde, on a listserv dedicated to 
him.  

my advice to everyone; quit taking life so seriously!  it's so short -- music 
/ performance art / visual art / theatre is such a nice relief from the 
banality and often stressful seriousness of reality.  plausibly few people 
get that as much as i do.  and especially avant-garde stuff.  the point is 
that it's not supposed to be taken this seriously, and i think that if you 
wrote to / emailed / sent a homing pigeon to any one of these people you so 
often hail as gods - zorn, braxton, frith, among others - you would find that 
they don't take themselves as seriously as YOU take them.  now, if we're 
talking ferneyhough, that may be a different story.  hell, let's forward a 
succession of these emails to braxton, lucier, and ferneyhough - all at 
wesleyan university - and see how they react.  and one of my best friends 
studies with frith right now.  i'm pretty satisfied knowing that the people 
i'm interested in would be interested, or at least entertained, at what i'm 
doing here.  beyond that, i DO do "serious" music, acoustic and electronic.  
i have done free improv, i have done more serious avant-garde performance 
pieces, and i'm doing a big multimedia one in the spring.  just because i 
choose to not be completely empassioned about whatever carries on here 
doesn't discredit me as a musician or artist, and doesn't detract from my 
maturity...  

it's not a maturity call.  it's a statement.  the statement is, in plain 
letters since no one seems to be getting it in obscured visions:

l i g h t e n  u p .

love,
  k8.

xxoo.



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>  
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #711
*******************************


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