From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #761 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, February 8 2002 Volume 03 : Number 761 In this issue: - Re: Re. Jazz Death Re: Re. Jazz Death Re: Re. Jazz Death Re: Re. Jazz Death Jazz death: sweatin' to the oldies jazz vs. amm Luttenbachers again / 'New York is Now' book Re: (spell that, please) Re: Zorn as Miles???????? Re: Re. Jazz Death--I detect misanthropy =?Windows-1252?Q?Susie_Ibarra/Roberto_Rodr=EDguez?= RE: Zorn as Miles???????? Re: OT: saul williams / www.massmag.com rejazzdeath/satoko fuji ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:35:26 -0500 From: "Brian Olewnick" Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death > Honestly, Brian, I think you're complaining that nobody's reinventing the > wheel. :-) Actually, I thought I was complaining that _too many_ people are trying to reinvent the wheel! I wish they'd try inventing something else. Brian Olewnick - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:49:52 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death Refreshingly, there are many people though these days who are just getting together and playing some good music. Bobby Previte or Peter Epstein for example have done some amazing and interesting albums, but they didn't reinvent anything, or attempt to for that matter... is there a problem with that? > :-) Actually, I thought I was complaining that _too many_ people are trying > to reinvent the wheel! I wish they'd try inventing something else. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:42:09 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death > From: "Julian" > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:49:52 +1100 > To: "Brian Olewnick" , "Zorn List" > > Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death > > Refreshingly, there are many people though these days who are just getting > together and playing some good music. Bobby Previte or Peter Epstein for > example have done some amazing and interesting albums, but they didn't > reinvent anything, or attempt to for that matter... is there a problem with > that? There f**king shouldn't be. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:53:17 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death > From: "Julian" > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:49:52 +1100 > To: "Brian Olewnick" , "Zorn List" > > Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death > >> :-) Actually, I thought I was complaining that _too many_ people are > trying >> to reinvent the wheel! I wish they'd try inventing something else. The wheel is still functioning quite well, though. The wheel is far from dead and archaic. And the same can be said for any vehicle of expression in which people are developing a voice. Whether or not we think they are doesn't matter. As long as they think they are, and their constituency (no matter how small) agrees, it endures. There are people right now, as we speak, hearing Diana Krall play in the King Cole trio style. She doesn't have that style perfected yet, she's still developing within it, and so much of that audience has never had exposure to that style, so to them it's a new experience. It might not be the experience we're choosing (although I think she's just fine for that sort of entertainment), but there are a lot of people choosing it and opening their ears to improvising through it, even if they don't wind up buying works that the cognescenti deem somehow more challenging. It's fresh and exciting for them. Anything that stays fresh and exciting and develops a new listenership -- be it hip-hop, punk rock, modern music etc -- is in good shape, because it's layers seem to be staying somehow alive. If you have a Zorn layer or an Uri layer or whatever, you need a surface layer, and Diana Krall records are fine for that. And, funnily enough, I think the Krall phenom is a healthy thing, because it breeds new reactions and opposition, and that always leads to activity. Plus there is the inevitable small percent of Krall consumers who will want to get to the next layers, and it leads to a lot of the stuff we're talking about here (and I say this because my iin to to jazz was a singing piano player who addressed my rock/blues/country sensibilities-- Mose Allison). Besides, she's much more physically appealing to me than Wynton. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:02:06 -0800 From: Chris Selvig Subject: Jazz death: sweatin' to the oldies "Yeah, if sweating automatically equated to good music, you'd have a point." - I bet the fat guy in Blues Traveler sweats quite a bit. Chris Selvig - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:19:47 From: "William York" Subject: jazz vs. amm >When I go hear AMM or Otomo, I have no really good idea (except in a > >general way) what I'm going to get. With Masada (or Wynton or William > >Parker or Louis Belogenis, etc.) I know, within a few granules, >exactly >what to expect. This doesn't interest me. Hmmm, I saw AMM last year, and only owning a couple of their discs, they did pretty much exactly what I expected. I saw Masada around the same time -- maybe six months earlier -- and only owning a couple of discs by them as well, I thought it was much more surprising and exciting (among other things). And I am not the world's biggest Masada fan. I guess it depends on what you are listening for or tuned into. By the way, there is a REALLY good (and funny) review of AMM's Tunes Without Measure Or End written by (I think) z-list member Nick Cain here: http://www.info.net.nz/opprobrium/html/online/2/reviews/e2_reviewsA.html Nice work -- good to see someone at least putting a little pin-prick into this bubble ... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:25:35 From: "William York" Subject: Luttenbachers again / 'New York is Now' book In reference to my last post ... Speaking of jazz writers "shaking things up" (not that you are strictly a "jazz writer" Mr. Cain), there is, somewhat unbelievably, an article on Weasel Walter and the recently discussed-here Flying Luttenbachers in the recent issue of Jazziz. Not only is it possibly the first non-pejorative mention I have ever seen of death metal in a magazine like this (hooray, somebody's got his ears open!), there are some interesting quotes about the sometime-predictability of improv today, even by such acknowledged masters as Lovens, Gustafsson, etc. So, I am wondering, since this article is written by Phil Freeman -- who I had originally dismissed b/c of all the slams directed at his book "New York is Now" -- is this book worthwhile? From what I hear there is a lot of Zorn-bashing and stuff like that, but anyway, has anyone here read it? if so, thoughts/comments??? Thanks, WY _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:39:59 -0600 From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: (spell that, please) Skip probably meant to write: contemporaneity - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:11:00 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles???????? Hi, Arguments about the importance that MIles Davis has for me have become a constant during the last few months and the Z-list could be no exception as I see. >I think your > statement is a bit too Miles-friendly or perhaps nostalgic. >What's wrong with looking to the past for precedent and inspiration? There's >a huge difference between that and nostalgia. Skip, my message clearly says that everyone looks back either for inspiration or just for enjoyment. It's obvious and unavoidable. Everything is the results of previous influence, no doubt. You didn't discover electricity now. > It depends on your personal taste, but "Spillane" or "Elegy" > mean much more to me than any of the records you mention. >Maybe to you. But to the bulk of jazz-oriented musicians and beyond, KIND >OF BLUE is an extremely important thing. In jazz, only A LOVE SUPREME seems >to get the same universal influence vote from players in every school. Needless to say and as I mentioned in my previous e-mail, I can objectively understand the importance that those recordings have in the jazz world and accept it. "A Love Supreme" is certainly one of my favorite albums ever, but Miles' work never made a dent on me, he just leaves me absolutely cold. What really annoys me is the fact that he seems to be untouchable whereas everyone, EVERYONE who make their work public are subject to possible negative criticism. And Miles Davis shouldn't be exempt of sincere "attacks". Ok, he's an icon, but I don't like him. Such an open-minded list shouldn't be so surprised, IMHO. i won't pull out a gun if someone hates Zorn. I understand they > are important for many people, and going against Miles has "come rather > expensive" to me, so to speak. Maybe my age prevents me from enjoying those > titles in all their supposed immensity, but IMHO, Miles had his time, and > now's the time for something else. >Miles' time is far from over. People are still dealing with his work and >its influence. John Zorn would probably be the first guy to slap you silly >for saying that Miles' -- or any great artist's -- "time is over and now's >the time for something else". I don't think I'm silly. I just don't like Miles Davis. Is it so hard to understand? I just meant that comparing Zorn to Davis is absurd, IMO. Zorn has his own idosincracy and, it goes without saying, his own "momentum". His influences outside the music world are uncomparable to those of Davis. > Of course, I don't expect anyone of any > future generations to produce another "Spillane", because it's supposed to > be unique. And, of course, I also look back when purchasing or just > listening to music, but your comments seem to me a little "anchored in the > past" . > >You can't anchor in the present, because it's moving, and you can't anchor >to the future, because it's never here yet. Obviousness?? Thanks, Skip, but I'm not so stupid. Zorn obviously understood this when he designed SPILLANE, which is based on the Mike Hammer novels up to about 1961. History is different than antiquity. Ya damn kid! "Damn Kid!" doesn't sound really good, does it? Revealing my age seems to have been a mistake. NOw I don't have the right to speak anymore! Efrén del Valle a.e: Radiohead: "KID A" (of course, kid) skip h NP: Cannonball Adderley: RADIO NIGHTS (amazing) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:27:10 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death--I detect misanthropy on 2/7/02 11:53 PM, Skip Heller at velaires@earthlink.net wrote: > Besides, she's much more physically appealing to me than Wynton. > Misanthropist! Misanthropist! - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:35:53 +0100 From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Susie_Ibarra/Roberto_Rodr=EDguez?= This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C1B027.CD65D2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, A couple of days ago I purchased Susie Ibarra's "Songbird Suite" and I'd = say it's a nice album but absolutely nothing out of this earth. IMHO, = it's something right inbetween her first trio effort "Radiance" and = "Flower After Flower", sometimes really laid back and somehow disperse = as the latter, and at times going into wild improvisations in which I'd = highlight Jennifer Choi's work on violin. Ikue Mori's contributions are = for me pretty dispensable. Even Ibarra's playing didn't hook me up this = time; I find her a bit restrained although there is a good percussion = solo, "Trance N.1", and of course some other remarkable spots, but all = in all not as dynamic as I'd expected. BTW, someone told me she'd be in Barcelona to present a new recording = with Derek Bailey. Anyone knows about that supposed new album? I just = know about "Daedal". That would confirm the validity of the information = a bit. With regards to "El Danz=F3n de Mois=E9s", I'm not as wild about it as = someone else on the list some days ago. It's certainly a beautiful album = but perhaps after purchasing maybe 20 Radical Jewish Culture releases = I've grown a bit tired of the "same" melodies over and over again. IMO, = the execution is superb (I was particularly shocked by Mark Feldman) but = some fresh air would be very welcome on the Series. This is really, = really subjective. The boredom factor can be too conditioning. Best, Efr=E9n del Valle n.p: Tsahar/Ragin/Kowald/Drake: "Open Systems" (Terron=E8s) - ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C1B027.CD65D2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
A couple of days ago I purchased Susie Ibarra's = "Songbird=20 Suite" and I'd say it's a nice album but absolutely nothing out of this = earth.=20 IMHO, it's something right inbetween her first trio effort "Radiance" = and=20 "Flower After Flower", sometimes really laid back and somehow disperse = as the=20 latter, and at times going into wild improvisations in which I'd = highlight=20 Jennifer Choi's work on violin. Ikue Mori's contributions are for me = pretty=20 dispensable. Even Ibarra's playing didn't hook me up this time; I find = her a bit=20 restrained although there is a good percussion solo, "Trance N.1", and = of course=20 some other remarkable spots, but all in all not as dynamic as I'd=20 expected.
 
BTW, someone told me she'd be in Barcelona to = present a new=20 recording with Derek Bailey. Anyone knows about that supposed new album? = I just=20 know about "Daedal". That would confirm the validity of the information = a=20 bit.
 
With regards to "El Danz=F3n de Mois=E9s", I'm not = as wild about=20 it as someone else on the list some days ago. It's certainly a beautiful = album=20 but perhaps after purchasing maybe 20 Radical Jewish Culture releases = I've grown=20 a bit tired of the "same" melodies over and over again. IMO, the = execution is=20 superb (I was particularly shocked by Mark Feldman) but some fresh air = would be=20 very welcome on the Series. This is really, really subjective. The = boredom=20 factor can be too conditioning.
 
Best,
 
Efr=E9n del Valle
n.p: Tsahar/Ragin/Kowald/Drake: "Open Systems"=20 (Terron=E8s)
- ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C1B027.CD65D2A0-- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:30:47 -0500 From: "Zachary Steiner" Subject: RE: Zorn as Miles???????? Kind of Blue was the second Miles album that I bought. Birth of the Cool was the first ( I liked it b/c I was into Gerry Mulligan at the time). I turned Kind of Blue and on expected to be blown away having heard the hype. What did I hear? Elevator music! I relegated it to the inoffensive list of CDs I listen to when I sleep. I found myself asking why this Miles Davis character was so important if his "best" album was pretty lame. All that changed when I happened to be looking in the Miles section of the record store, the cover of Bitches Brew called to me. I put it on for the ride home. WOW! I was blown away. I didn't know what I was hearing, but oh did I like it. I later went to explore earlier Miles, but it doesn't really do it for me like the electric years. Dodging the stones, Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: OT: saul williams / www.massmag.com * "Andrew" : >This is as good an opportunity as any to spam.....I write for an >online webzine that covers Hip hop, literature, film, cultural >commentary, industrial design, etc... I really love the mag. >Check us out at www.massmag.com, and read my reviews of the >recent Saul Williams and David Axelrod records. >Again, this is not spam, but I think you guys might dig the mag. Hey Andrew ... hope you don't mind a reply to this here. The mag looks good! Read your review of the Williams at, http://www.massmag.com/winter02/setrecrevs.htm, and ... Wow!!! While we agree on his skills as an MC, we definitely have different opinions on the rest of the record (and both Ursula Rucker & Sarah Jones, it would seem :-). I don't find the production anywhere near as stale as you do, and to compare him (or pieces he's done) to, IMO, has-beens like Living Colour, a Hendrix wanna-be like Kravitz, or the f**king joke that is Rage/Zack de la Rocha is ... well, I can't quite believe it! I also think that, while already old, "Coded Language" was/is a fine centerpiece. One of the better tracks Krust has done, on his own, or with Roni Size & Co.. I like Saul's earlier Big Dada cuts as well, so more "old stuff" on the LP would have been fine w/ me. One thing to note: I haven't had the LP in rotation since Spring of last year (2001), when I got it, but I did play it a helluva lot (among other things) at that time. Never know what I might think upon revisiting it, but ... As they say, different strokes ... Man, sometimes I can't believe how critical people are of music ... or art, or film, or ... Not bringing this up specifically because of your review, but doesn't anyone just _listen_ and _enjoy_ (or not enjoy, and move on to the next LP) anymore??? ;-) - -Patrick NP: Luc Ferrari - "Presque rien" - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:24:48 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: rejazzdeath/satoko fuji i was being pretty nycentric (well, why not?) with my up'n'comer list, although i don't really know how old satoko fuji is, so i'm not sure she fits whatever criteria we're working with anyway. but she is really remarkable. as for recs, brian, i'd go straight to 'double take'. she and wm parker are two of the only people i know of who are really mining big band. but i realize, of course, that that sentence might well lead you to stay away from it. jo, toward to west, others are also very good, and vulcan is intersting for tatsuya yoshida's presence, but april shower and junction i'm less sold on. i'm actually a little worried that she, who struck me as a real voice, might be falling into a jazz trap. but i'm hoping to see her in nyc and at victo in the spring, so i'll reserve doomsaying. kg _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #761 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com