From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #784 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Sunday, February 17 2002 Volume 03 : Number 784 In this issue: - RE: willie Odp: SHAKIRA! [was Re: Re: Britney] Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #782 Re: Odp: SHAKIRA! [was Re: Re: Britney] Odp: Odp: SHAKIRA! [was Re: Re: Britney] All about cello Re: All about cello Re: All about cello Re: All about cello cello. Re: All about cello Re: All about cello Growing Old Gracefully (was Zorn List Digest V3 #782) Re: All about cello Againg Gracefully OT: Chromosomos "Ultra Project" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:26:27 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: willie Kurt, Kurt! I said Willie was making "some of" the best music of his career. And that would include 'Spirit,' 'Teatro,' "Rainbow' (which came out on Island and includes more than kids' songs, including a cover of "Just Droppped In (To See What Condition My Condition Was In)") and, rumor has it, the new duets thing - though that I've not yet heard. The classic stuff, of course, remains 'Red Headed Stranger' (and now I've got to track down that other disc that Skip mentioned...) and 'Stardust.' Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Ravel, 'L'heure espagnole' (Opera D'Oro) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Kurt Gottschalk Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:54 PM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: willie really, steve? willie's making the best music of his career? i'm not about to give him an ever-so-trendy trashing ("I Liked Him Back When"), but "milk cow blues" suckd and the latest calvacade of stars hardly looks more impressive. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:19:18 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: SHAKIRA! [was Re: Re: Britney] Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > Art used to be personal expression which passes the test of time (measured as > raising interest beyond the usual ghetto, and complacent friends, and people > having financial interest in it). I often wonder what makes music that sounds well after 200 yers better then such that is valid only in given cultural circumstances. If there's a link between time and value, i'd be glad to know what does it consist in, because it's far from being clear. I'd think that it's just one of the positivist myths about the value of art - some kind of 'objective' criterion that was made up somewhere, and became so widely accepted that nobody pays attention anymore to whether it makes any sense or not. You wrote that we should let the time decide what is art or not - I think that time will only decide about time, and that's all. Marcin - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:50:49 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #782 on 2/16/02 11:24 PM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote: > Thing is, I like it, too. It might well have made my list of favorites of > the year, had I bought it in 2001 - maybe. It certainly sounds like an > artist who's aging gracefully, like Willie Nelson and even Johnny Cash for > the most part. The music has a timeless quality, like Bob's re-examining his > Harry Smith and his Lomax and even some swing sides. And the presence of > Augie Meyers on anything automatically raises the bar. > > But the BEST album of 2001, according to lots of critics and the Village > Voice Pazz & Jop Poll? I think not. Well, I don't really pay attention to the VOICE. I pay more attention to Dave Alvin, who I think is our greatest American songwriter at present (along with Lucinda Williams and Steve Earle). And Dave called me and said, "Get off the phone and go get the new Bob record. NOW!!" And I got it, came home, and stayed excited through the whole disc. Still am. Bob's clearly having a blast. > Lyrically, it felt to me like Bob was > coasting most of the time. Actually, this is one of those times I disagree with you mightily. I think he's discovered Johnny Mercer (in fact, I know this for a fact) and is finally intrigued with an earlier era of songwriting. >I have to admit it: I'm more in line with the > minority who felt that the best songs on '"Love and Theft"' wouldn't have > been the fourth or fifth best songs on 'Another Side' or 'Blonde on Blonde' > or 'Blood on the Tracks' (and I'll go so far as to add 'Infidels' to that > sacred list). I'd add about half of INFIDELS to that list (espec "Jokerman"), but I will say this -- you're not looking at a guy who still thinks about things in a way that will result in another BLOOD ON THE TRACKS (which could be the single greatest album ever made). Bob's a much looser guy than he used to be. And that quality is what I love about this batch of songs. In a way, the analogous release would be less BLOOD than NEW MORNING. And I love NEW MORNING very dearly. Every love affair gone wrong, I reached for BLOOD. Every long roadtrip with a woman I was crazy about, NEW MORNING. I love 'em both mightily. As far as anything being the best on a critics poll -- it doesn't make a whit of difference to me. I'm one of the critics polled by the LA WEEKLY at year's end, and I always beg off the "Album Of The Year" category because I know I'm missing stuff that would make me scream with joy. And enough critics I know say things like, "Well, I voted for this album because [insert name] made a good album this year and he never gets his props", so I take it all with a grain of salt. Likely, the VOICE crits were so happy to see Bob actually taking an interest in his work again that they felt a need to let him know they're interested too. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:55:25 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: Odp: SHAKIRA! [was Re: Re: Britney] on 2/17/02 1:19 AM, Marcin Gokieli at marcingokieli@go2.pl wrote: > If there's a link > between time and value, i'd be glad to know what does it consist in, because > it's far from being clear. I'd think that it's just one of the positivist > myths about the value of art - some kind of 'objective' criterion that was > made up somewhere, and became so widely accepted that nobody pays attention > anymore to whether it makes any sense or not. > You wrote that we should let the time decide what is art or not - I think > that time will only decide about time, and that's all. > Marcin Here here. I've got a buttload of great records that were unknown when they came out in, say, 1940, and are still great. And nobody knows about 'em. Every now and then, we luck out and an Esquivel gets rediscovered, or a Shaggs, or a Herbie Nichols. But largely many wonderful things are left undiscovered forever, except by a few fanatics. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:53:59 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: Odp: SHAKIRA! [was Re: Re: Britney] - ----- Original Message ----- From: skip heller > > Shaggs, or a Herbie Nichols. But largely many wonderful things are left > undiscovered forever, except by a few fanatics. And the moment of their discovery - whether by some kind of fanatic or not - has little to do with the value of the work. Marcin - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:58:13 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: All about cello Hello Zornies. It's time to play an old favorite game of ours: Turning people on to cool music. This time the keyword will be "cello". I have a friend who stared playing the cello recently, and I would like to present him with some cello music which might in the long run lead in to the twisted world of "zornlist music". So far he mainly knows classical cello, like Pablo Casals, but he is interested to check out more stuff, especially outside of the classical world. Our subject is not into experimental music, and I'm afraid something too radical will turn him off. Some something fairly easily listened, but with an edge which might lead elsewhere.... you know what I mean. So far, I have copied some Bar Kokhbah which has worked rather well. Of the top of my head the cello players I come to think of are: Tristan Honsinger, Erik Friedlander, Ernst Reiseger, Tom Cora. Any recomendations for their stuff?? I have "Gumbo In Limbtion" (or whatever it's called) which is Tom Cora solo. It has some really nice parts, but also some of it sounds like he is butchering the cello and I think it might frighten my friend away. Has he done anything which is more constantly melodic?? Also reccomendations for "purely" mainstream use of cello outside the classical world, will be very valuable. Is there anything like a jazz quartet with soloing cello???? All the best, NP: Faust w. Tony Conrad (3. time today) NR: http://www.deadmedia.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:01:33 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: All about cello > Of the top of my head the cello players I come to think of are: Tristan > Honsinger, Erik Friedlander, Ernst Reiseger, Tom Cora. Any recomendations > for their stuff?? The Clusone 3's "Rara Avis" (with Reijseger) is very good, including some jazz and also some classical which would make a good entree into the jazz/experimental stuff. I haven't checked out Erik Friedlander as leader, but his work on "The Circle Maker" and in Dave Douglas' string group ("Parallel Worlds", "Five", etc) is great. Hank Roberts is another one, I haven't heard heaps of his stuff, but can recommend Bill Frisell's "Where In The World?" for some very pleasant cello playing, and great music in general. Also, what about Apocalyptica, 4 cellos playing mostly Metallica and other heavy covers but also some originals..? - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:26:19 EST From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Re: All about cello - --part1_196.2696081.29a1097b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/02 6:59:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, a_gadney@hotmail.com writes: > Also reccomendations for "purely" mainstream use of cello outside the > classical world, will be very valuable. Is there anything like a jazz > quartet with soloing cello???? > Off the top of my head, some of Chico Hamilton's recordings, and Nirvana Unplugged. Dale. - --part1_196.2696081.29a1097b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/02 6:59:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, a_gadney@hotmail.com writes:


Also reccomendations for "purely" mainstream use of cello outside the
classical world, will be very valuable. Is there anything like a jazz
quartet with soloing cello????


Off the top of my head, some of Chico Hamilton's recordings, and Nirvana Unplugged.

Dale.
 - --part1_196.2696081.29a1097b_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:09:51 -0500 From: "David Beardsley" Subject: Re: All about cello Try Morton Feldman or Iannis Xenakis. * David Beardsley * http://biink.com * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:11:59 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: cello. mm. i have to reccomend michael gordon's "industry". what an amazing piece. and, for that matter, any string piece michael gordon ever touched. . . there is a kronos piece called "potassium" and i don't know if it has been recorded / released yet, but it's freaking cool, and a piece on bang on a can's renegade heaven called "i am paul.". mmm. love, k8. - ----- [ .n o t h i n g i s w h a t i s s a i d. ] .k a t e p e t e r s o n. .c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r. http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable) - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:53:38 -0500 From: James Hale Subject: Re: All about cello Just about anything with Peggy Lee, but I especially like Francois Houle's "In The Vernacular" with Dave Douglas and Mark Dresser. Arthur Blythe's "Blythe Spirit" with Abdul Wadud. Ernst Reijseger's "Colla Voche" on Winter & Winter "Lee Konitz & The Axis String Quartet play French Impressionist Music from the 20th Century" on Palmetto. James Hale Arthur Gadney wrote: > Hello Zornies. > > It's time to play an old favorite game of ours: Turning people on to cool > music. This time the keyword will be "cello". - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:01:25 -0500 From: bob sweet Subject: Re: All about cello Check out David Eyges. A Google search will turn up plenty of references to his stuff. Bob Sweet read Music Universe, Music Mind: Revisiting the Creative Music Studio http://www.arborville.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:48:37 EST From: Nvinokur@aol.com Subject: Growing Old Gracefully (was Zorn List Digest V3 #782) Growing old gracefully, like Willie, Bob...who else can we add to that list. There is a new article on Leonard Cohen in this months Spin...I would add him to the list... But what is the criteria...obviously, a 60 year old should not be making the music of a 20 year old, or try to (are you listening Mick Jagger), but on the other hand, while perhaps not making the most crucial music of their career, Neil Young and Keith Richards are truly devoted to their muse. Also, what age should we start at? Is U2 old? Is Beck? - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:22:26 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: All about cello Frances Marie Uitti http://www.radiantslab.com/Uitti/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:30:39 EST From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Againg Gracefully - --part1_12c.ca48326.29a134af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Funny, aging entertainers seems to be a hot topic these days. Here's a snippet from a recent Nick Lowe interview: "...and then the time came where people weren't ringing me up for quotes and it still came as a bit of a shock. There's few things more wretched than a clapped-out pop singer. So I resolved to find a way to use the fact that I'm getting older in a business that doesn't value age and experience -- unlike jazz or blues, where you can't be too old. I mean, who wants to listen to a young blues singer? Not me. So I can use the fact that I'm an old guy doing this to make people envy the fact that I'm an old guy, and counting the minutes until they're old so they can be doing it as well. The only problem is that I've been so successful at developing this unique niche for myself that I'm not exactly sure there's an audience for it [laughs]." Other twilight years artists who are still making good music: Tom Waits Elvis Costello Lou Reed Patti Smith Alejandro Escovedo Still a whipper snapper at 33, Tom In a message dated 2/17/02 10:49:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nvinokur@aol.com writes: > Growing old gracefully, like Willie, Bob...who else can we add to that list. > > There is a new article on Leonard Cohen in this months Spin...I would add > him > to the list... > > But what is the criteria...obviously, a 60 year old should not be making > the > music of a 20 year old, or try to (are you listening Mick Jagger), but on > the > other hand, while perhaps not making the most crucial music of their > career, > Neil Young and Keith Richards are truly devoted to their muse. > > Also, what age should we start at? Is U2 old? Is Beck? > - --part1_12c.ca48326.29a134af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Funny, aging entertainers seems to be a hot topic these days.  Here's a snippet from a recent Nick Lowe interview:

"...and then the time came where people weren't ringing me up for quotes and
it still came as a bit of a shock. There's few things more wretched than a
clapped-out pop singer. So I resolved to find a way to use the fact that I'm
getting older in a business that doesn't value age and experience -- unlike
jazz or blues, where you can't be too old. I mean, who wants to listen to a
young blues singer? Not me. So I can use the fact that I'm an old guy doing
this to make people envy the fact that I'm an old guy, and counting the
minutes until they're old so they can be doing it as well. The only problem
is that I've been so successful at developing this unique niche for myself
that I'm not exactly sure there's an audience for it [laughs]."

Other twilight years artists who are still making good music:
Tom Waits
Elvis Costello
Lou Reed
Patti Smith
Alejandro Escovedo


Still a whipper snapper at 33,
Tom

In a message dated 2/17/02 10:49:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nvinokur@aol.com writes:


Growing old gracefully, like Willie, Bob...who else can we add to that list. 
There is a new article on Leonard Cohen in this months Spin...I would add him
to the list...

But what is the criteria...obviously, a 60 year old should not be making the
music of a 20 year old, or try to (are you listening Mick Jagger), but on the
other hand, while perhaps not making the most crucial music of their career,
Neil Young and Keith Richards are truly devoted to their muse. 

Also, what age should we start at?  Is U2 old?  Is Beck?


 - --part1_12c.ca48326.29a134af_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:23:34 EST From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: OT: Chromosomos "Ultra Project" Marcin- heard about this outfit? Copied thios from the RMP newsgroup. =20 Sounds interesting... "...One could claim that the sounds of this 'something' bear traces of the New York's M-BASE, of the sort of Lost Tribe and Greg Osby, that there is a pinch of Tzadik climates referring to the Klezmer tradition (the superb 'Chasyd'), that there is a bit of Fripp, Coleman, and Skopelitis. However, you cannot accuse this music of being just thoughtless copying. These musicians have taken from jazz what is just the most interesting, and as they are young and open to new music, no wonder the jazz phrasing has been shored up with the rock-like impetus. Summing up, No 1 debut of the last year." (Gazeta Wyborcza - Poland's most popular nationwide neswpaper) Announcing the release of Chromosomos CD "Ultra Project" Marcin Bors - git Artur Dominik - dr Robert Szyd=B3o - bass Guests: Adam Pieronczyk - sax Artur Majewski - tp Blanka Miklaszewska - voc Venetta Nenova Bogdanowa - voc - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #784 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com