From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #789 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, February 19 2002 Volume 03 : Number 789 In this issue: - Re: dolphy weekend RE: Scheherazade and Shepp Re: Johnny Ray Re: dolphy weekend Re: dolphy weekend Re: More Aging Gracefully, Nick Lowe, and pop music Avant College Groups Re: Dolphy Re: Dolphy Re: Dolphy Re: Across Threads (BAG article) Re: dolphy weekend New Music for Early Instruments in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning February 12, 2002 Re: dolphy weekend Re: dolphy weekend RE: dolphy weekend dolphy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:59:37 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: dolphy weekend on 2/18/02 3:45 PM, Marcin Gokieli at marcingokieli@go2.pl wrote: > You may be right. It sounds mannred in a way. But i just like that > unrehearsed sound, where drums go ways louder then the vibraphone. You hear > the band trying hard to get something - they do not achieve the goal, but > the quest is incredibly exciting. If that band had been playing together as a regular working unit, I think they'd have been playing that stuff in the most easy, off-handed way. Look at what brubeck managed to accomplish. > 'filles de kilimajro' - the best jazz album ever - If you don't get flamed for such an unequivocal statement about a record with actual tracable tempos and chord changes, I'll be shocked. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:01:14 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: RE: Scheherazade and Shepp Another was called The Communist. Considering Shepp's stance at the time, I figure they come across as junior grade LeRoi Jones. Ken - --- Steve Smith wrote: > That's a good question, and one I can't answer. But > I think it would be safe > to guess that they did, given the texts he used in > some of his earlier > recordings (like "Malcolm, Malcolm... Semper > Malcolm"). I do know that at > least one of his plays, Junebug Graduates Tonight! > was successfully staged > off-Broadway in 1967. ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:03:55 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: Johnny Ray on 2/18/02 3:52 PM, Ken Waxman at mingusaum@yahoo.ca wrote: > Skip: > > I don't mind that --even if he's wrong. But you gotta > know what you're talking about before putting pen to > paper or finger to keyboard (flamers please note). At > one point in the book, if I remember correctly, he > tries to put down bop -- which to him seems to be the > pinnacle of modernism -- viz a viz Ray by knocking A > Love Supreme, not exactly bop, a saying Ray didn't > need the trappings of supreme love because he already > had love of his own. > > It makes more -- or less-- sense when you read it. > > Ken I meant more than anything that whatever Whiteside writes about post-Bird jazz is to be relatively discounted. He's a helluva nice guy and I feel compelled to defend him. And, while his opinions can get in the way, his scholarship is generally commendable. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:11:19 +0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: dolphy weekend >From: skip heller > >If that band had been playing together as a regular working unit, I think >they'd have been playing that stuff in the most easy, off-handed way. Look >at what brubeck managed to accomplish. I'm somewhat hesitant to bring up this complex subject here, but don't you think there were some pretty 'obvious' reasons why a Brubeck could accomplish this... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:17:39 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: dolphy weekend on 2/18/02 5:11 PM, thomas chatterton at chatterton23@hotmail.com wrote: > > I'm somewhat hesitant to bring up this complex subject here, but don't you > think there were some pretty 'obvious' reasons why a Brubeck could > accomplish this... > Three: Brubeck was a very skilled bandleader -- enough to keep his personnel in place for years rather than months and: The band played often, so developing the music could happen more readily night in/night out. Dave is a genius. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:22:20 EST From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: More Aging Gracefully, Nick Lowe, and pop music In a message dated 2/18/02 1:13:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: << I think what he's saying is that while the proliferation of boy bands doesn't surprise him, he's struck by the number of "alternative" groups that seem all to have been cut from the same roll of flannel. >> Okay-well, that makes a bit more sense. I was looking at "boy bands" from the Osmond Brothers/Jackson 5/Boyszone/N'Sync spin than rock bands composed of males only. - -- np: Oddtoot- Mental Money =dg= - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:33:05 -0500 From: "Zachary Steiner" Subject: Avant College Groups I hate to be bothersome again about my little aspirations, but... I'm looking for a name for my Experimental group. I'm looking for something catchy to draw people in, but respectable too. We toyed with S.E.X. (Students for Experimental Xpression), but that is pretty unrespectable. I don't think a college would recognize a group called SEX, let alone give them any money. Any ideas? The Zornlist has proven to be pretty clever in the past, so I though I'd try. Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:37:43 -0800 From: hyyy gbbbb Subject: Re: Dolphy Sure, Dolphy had his pet licks but not more than all the rest of them. He strikes me as the kind of guy who'd be very much at home in today's "downtownish" kind of scenes--where awareness of, and interest in, so many musics informs a vibrant creative community. He's arguably a direct antecedent to someone like Zorn. And, regarding BLUES AND THE ABSTRACT TRUTH, put almost anyone else in Dolphy's place and that would be just another better-than-average album. E.D.'s contributions are a league apart from the other soloists--as great as they are. To my ears, when E.D. is soloing the music really is transported. You folks absolutely MUST go back and check out "The Prophet" from Live At The Five Spot (1961). Dolphy's solo here, with great assistance from Ed Blackwell,is a tour-de-force. Traditions encompassing earl bostic, benny carter, bird merge exuberantly, all the while portending what was soon to come via braxton and roscoe mitchell. Also check out the "other" version of Epistrophy with Bennink and Misha, on the LP ICP 017. A great Lengthy Examination of textural/noisy/extended techniques on bass clarinet. And, we all know the 64 european tour with Mingus is the bomb. Many shows were recorded but definitely GO GET two of the last from that tour: Wuppertal (on Enja--Mingus In Europe vols.1 and 2) Stuttgart (on cd at www.rkounique.com and LP on the italian bootleg uniquejazz label) Listen to the versions of Fables of Faubus on these two shows--they both contain virtuosic scintilating bass clarinet outings amidst a turbulent mingus-style-constant-rearrangement, which, in both cases, includes duets between Dolphy and Mingus. If you can find the october 62 live date from the Gaslight Inn (once again the itaian bootleg LP labels Ingo or unique jazz) be sure to check out Dolphy's extended alto on GW. Forgive the loquacity but I remain, as ever, an unrepentant completist Dolphy-ophile. He's almost the only one who can prompt me to wax rhapsodic in a proseletyzing manner such as this. Not to drag Ornette back into it but a case might be made that E.D. did as much to move music forward from WITHIN the chorus form as Ornette did from without. (and check 'em out playing together on that John lewis date on Atlantic!) - --graham connah > > skip: > The mention of OUT TO LUNCH motivated me to pull out some Dolphy's for the > first time in a while, and I have come to believe I was right about Eric > Dolphy all along. He was the David Sanborn of the avant-garde -- the guy > with spotless technique who could play with anyone and fit in completely > while retaining his own style (this is props -- I like Sanborn on other > people's records) Downside: Dolphy repeats himself a lot. I remember > transcribing stuff he played over blues and rhythm changes, and he was prone > to doing certain things over and over again (and in different keys -- the > curse of the obsessive practicer). > > I pulled out the Mingus stuff, and I think that's overall the best place for > him. Trane was so fixated on playing one kind of style by the time he > hooked up with Dolphy that, except for OLE, we don't get the widest view > possible of what Dolphy (or anyone else in the quartet +1) could do in a > small group context. But Mingus really exploited every resource his players > and compositions had to offer. BLUES & THE ABSTRACT TRUTH is a whole other > thing -- almost an omnibus of jazz soloing styles on the late fifties (with > Bill Evans taking every piano player through the university of how to play > behind such different horn players). > > After listening to the Mingus stuff, OUT TO LUNCH actually sounds a little > mannered and intentional to me. But that could be do to not enough > rehearsal (the tunes are hard), or the players just not yet being quite > comfortable with a new idiom. It's hard to say anything about records that > bring a lot of new devices to the table. > > Years ago, I had a Dolphy album on Everest where he played "Jitterbug Waltz" > on the flute, and I wouldn't mind having that again. The exuberence of that > performance was just shy of Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and that's never a bad > thing. > > > - - > > ------------------------------ > > End of Zorn List Digest V3 #786 > ******************************* > > > To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to > "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" > with > "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" > in the body of the message. > > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" > in the commands above with "zorn-list". > > Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in > pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. > > Problems? Email the list owner at - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:44:24 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: Dolphy on 2/18/02 5:37 PM, hyyy gbbbb at connah@earthlink.net wrote: > And, regarding BLUES AND THE ABSTRACT TRUTH, put almost anyone else in > Dolphy's place and that would be just another better-than-average album. > E.D.'s contributions are a league apart from the other soloists--as great as > they are. To my ears, when E.D. is soloing the music really is transported. I'm an unaplogetic Bill Evans guy on this one and most others. and I really feel it was BE who pulled that album together. OR ELSE!! - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:46:14 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: Dolphy on 2/18/02 5:44 PM, skip heller at velaires@earthlink.net wrote: > I'm an unaplogetic Bill Evans guy on this one and most others. and I really > feel it was BE who pulled that album together. OR ELSE!! > sorry -- that was supposed to be for graham alone sh - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:37:44 -0600 From: Subject: Re: Across Threads (BAG article) s~Z wrote: http://www.oliverlake.net/bag.html Thanks for forwarding the link for the BAG article. I've heard occasional stories about BAG performances, but the article reproduced on Lake's site is the most extensive history of them I've seen. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Choate Subject: Re: dolphy weekend it always felt intentional to me, in a great way...like tension, push and shove. one of the first 'jazz' records i bought..and still looking for more of that sound. i have his illinois live, and the 4 cd village vangaurd/trane, completely different stuff. can anyone enlighten me to some of the process? or is it just the combo of people in the setting? or any other records with the tension/free/composed vibe? amor fati, square thomas - --- skip heller wrote: > The mention of OUT TO LUNCH motivated me to pull out > some Dolphy's for the > first time in a while, and I have come to believe I > was right about Eric > Dolphy all along. He was the David Sanborn of the > avant-garde -- the guy > with spotless technique who could play with anyone > and fit in completely > while retaining his own style (this is props -- I > like Sanborn on other > people's records) Downside: Dolphy repeats himself > a lot. I remember > transcribing stuff he played over blues and rhythm > changes, and he was prone > to doing certain things over and over again (and in > different keys -- the > curse of the obsessive practicer). > > I pulled out the Mingus stuff, and I think that's > overall the best place for > him. Trane was so fixated on playing one kind of > style by the time he > hooked up with Dolphy that, except for OLE, we don't > get the widest view > possible of what Dolphy (or anyone else in the > quartet +1) could do in a > small group context. But Mingus really exploited > every resource his players > and compositions had to offer. BLUES & THE ABSTRACT > TRUTH is a whole other > thing -- almost an omnibus of jazz soloing styles on > the late fifties (with > Bill Evans taking every piano player through the > university of how to play > behind such different horn players). > > After listening to the Mingus stuff, OUT TO LUNCH > actually sounds a little > mannered and intentional to me. But that could be > do to not enough > rehearsal (the tunes are hard), or the players just > not yet being quite > comfortable with a new idiom. It's hard to say > anything about records that > bring a lot of new devices to the table. > > Years ago, I had a Dolphy album on Everest where he > played "Jitterbug Waltz" > on the flute, and I wouldn't mind having that again. > The exuberence of that > performance was just shy of Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and > that's never a bad > thing. > > > - > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:41:43 -0600 From: Herb Levy Subject: New Music for Early Instruments in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning February 12, 2002 Hi y'all, This week on Mappings , you'll hear music for recorders, forte-pianos, harpsichords and the like, by composers Louis Andriessen, Luciano Berio, Allison Cameron, Evelyn Ficarra, Peter Hannan, Mauricio Kagel, and Gyorgy Ligeti. The show went online Monday evening around 10:00 PM (-0600 GMT) and will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program (featuring works by Ruth Crawford Seeger & Johanna M Beyer) is still available in the Mappings archive , where you can also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998. With luck this week Antenna Radio REALLY will be moving to a new server, with a slightly different hierarchy for the Web site. The URLs above should work for the next week or two though. Hope you tune in to the program; see you online. Bests, Herb - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:17:30 +0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: dolphy weekend >From: skip heller >Three: > >Brubeck was a very skilled bandleader -- enough to keep his personnel in >place for years rather than months > >and: The band played often, so developing the music could happen more >readily night in/night out. > >Dave is a genius. ...and he's white! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:29:39 -0800 From: skip heller Subject: Re: dolphy weekend on 2/18/02 9:17 PM, thomas chatterton at chatterton23@hotmail.com wrote: >> From: skip heller > > >> Three: >> >> Brubeck was a very skilled bandleader -- enough to keep his personnel in >> place for years rather than months >> >> and: The band played often, so developing the music could happen more >> readily night in/night out. >> >> Dave is a genius. > > ...and he's white! > I don't think that particularly assured him any success. He cancelled a ton of gigs where he was asked to bring a white bass player and not Gene Wright. But given that Dave's fans included Mingus, Miles, and Ellington, I don't think they had a problem with his being white. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:43:02 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: dolphy weekend Dave's record on the subject of civil rights is well documented, particularly as regards his defense of Gene Wright's position in the band. His reflection on racism in Ken Burns' series was one of the more genuinely poignant moments in the entire production. Race probably played no role at all in the longevity of his classic quartet - but it probably played a significant role in the ability of Columbia Records to market him to a mainstream audience. Add Cecil Taylor and Anthony Braxton to the list of ardent admirers. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of skip heller >> Dave is a genius. > > ...and he's white! > I don't think that particularly assured him any success. He cancelled a ton of gigs where he was asked to bring a white bass player and not Gene Wright. But given that Dave's fans included Mingus, Miles, and Ellington, I don't think they had a problem with his being white. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:59:37 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: dolphy - ----- Original Message ----- From: "skip heller" > After listening to the Mingus stuff, OUT TO LUNCH actually sounds a little > mannered and intentional to me. But that could be do to not enough > rehearsal (the tunes are hard), or the players just not yet being quite > comfortable with a new idiom. It's hard to say anything about records that > bring a lot of new devices to the table. You may be right. It sounds mannred in a way. But i just like that unrehearsed sound, where drums go ways louder then the vibraphone. You hear the band trying hard to get something - they do not achieve the goal, but the quest is incredibly exciting. The 'cool free' sound of flute, clarinet, & vibraphone is exceptional. A kind of sweetness/agression mix that only 'filles de kilimajro' - the best jazz album ever - managed to achieve and go further. tony william's drumming has somethinfg to do with that... and boy, what a sound Richard Davis has on that album. Marcin (who just got back from a very strong norbert kubacz on bass/ macio moretti on drums live show) - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #789 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com