From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #826 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, March 19 2002 Volume 03 : Number 826 In this issue: - Re: Previte/Frith/Some Questions Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? fractal "musik"... Fwd: christine bard 3/23 at the brecht Re: fractal "musik"... Re: fractal "musik"... Re: fractal music? Re: Timothy Young / Keith Lowe Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? Re: fractal music? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:36:20 -0800 From: Dave Trenkel Subject: Re: Previte/Frith/Some Questions At 8:59 AM -0800 3/19/2002, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: >On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:28:27 +0100 >=?Windows-1252?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= wrote: >> >> I'd like to add to those who recommended Bobby Previte's "The 23 >> Constellations of Joan Miro". I've never really been into Previte's >> compositional style - although I never heard his Avant release, which is >> supposed to be one of his best works to date- [...] > >You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because it is usually fairly down >the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the level of excitement of the >Gramavision/Enja material. > >Maybe some people mention it because it is hard to find and we all know that >the hard to find records are the best :-). > I've always like "Slay the Suitors" quite a lot, it seems to have more of a live band in a room feel than some of Previte's other projects. It may not be his strongest disc, but it's one of my favorites. - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Trenkel New and Improv Music http://www.newandimprov.com improv@peak.org - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:32:16 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: fractal music? on 3/19/02 10:00 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote: > And we are supposed to see K8 and Wuorinen on the same level, right? > > If she can dismiss Wuorinen's music so easily based on what she calls B.S. > (his > use of fractals, I suppose), I would expect similar intellectual rigor from > her part concerning her approach using Godel's theorem(s) and Julia's > fractals. > From an outsider, Wuorinen's timid attempt looks like cream to me :-). I > definitely see B.S., but not in Wuorinen's work. > > For someone who has exhibited recently such little pity for what many consider > as heros (with of course the usual IMHO, which allows to say the meanest > things > and covering his ass at the same time), why such a sudden rash of indulgence > for K8? > > Patrice. If Wourinen -- or Lou Reed or Ornette Coleman -- was a participant in this list, your point would be salient. They can be praised or damned and it's nothing personal. But if they were participants on this list, they would rate the same manners as anyone else when it comes down to personally calling someone's output on the carpet, which is something that is out of bounds. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:39:24 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: fractal music? On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:32:16 -0800 skip Heller wrote: > > If Wourinen -- or Lou Reed or Ornette Coleman -- was a participant in this > list, your point would be salient. They can be praised or damned and it's > nothing personal. But if they were participants on this list, they would > rate the same manners as anyone else when it comes down to personally > calling someone's output on the carpet, which is something that is out of > bounds. Are you trying to say that by simply being part of a mailing list you get total immunity? That you can diss anybody as long as they are dead or not on the list (with the careful sprinkling of IMHO)? Thanks for the clarification, Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:39:57 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: fractal "musik"... i'll jump in. i'm no great mathematician. i don't pretend to be. but i, as many of my friends and colleagues, use mathematics as a means to an aesthetic end. i have found that wuorinen's music uses mathematics as the basis for a specific idiom, and not to produce interesting results within a more acceptable aesthetic. i, as many, do not find wuorinen's music to be aesthetically pleasing. and gauging from your comment, i'm not entirely sure you're familiar with his output. i say this because you readily defended him, not something many people do except for the sake of argument, because it is widely accepted that his music is shit and the concept is interesting. on that note, you haven't heard my music either, and i think it's pretty amusing that you'd see fit to make an aesthetic judgement call on it. so maybe you ought to throw some of your output onto the table of public opinion so we can be as nasty to you publicly as you are to so many of us. love, k8. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:51:48 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: Fwd: christine bard 3/23 at the brecht >Neues Kabarett presents: >Christine Bard >with dancers Deborah Stamos and Marija Krtolica > >Saturday, March 23 >9 pm SHARP >doors open 8:30 >$8 >at The Brecht Forum/122 W. 27th Street, 10th Floor >between 6th and 7th Avenues >F or C/E train to 23rd St.; 1/9 train to 28th St. > >Neues Kabarett is thrilled to welcome Christine Bard >back to the Brecht Forum. Bard will perform soundscape >(pre-made and live processed), solo drums and >percussion. She will be joined by dancers Deborah >Stamos and Marija Krtolica, who will be seen shadow >dancing and will join Bard in improvisational trios >with dance and percussion. > > > >_____________________________________________________________ >Get a free "Jump Mail" account. >Free e-mail for artists & art lovers! >Log on to http://JumpArts.org > >_____________________________________________________________ >Run a small business? Then you need professional email like you@yourbiz.com >from Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net?tag _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:52:00 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: fractal "musik"... >>>i say this because you readily defended him, not something many people do except for the sake of argument, because it is widely accepted that his music is shit and the concept is interesting.<<< Whew! - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:51:02 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: fractal "musik"... On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 01:39:57PM -0500, UFOrbK8@aol.com wrote: > i, as many, do not find wuorinen's music to be aesthetically pleasing. and gauging from your comment, i'm not entirely sure you're familiar with his output. i say this because you readily defended him, not something many people do except for the sake of argument, because it is widely accepted that his music is shit and the concept is interesting. "widely accepted" by whom? While I find much of his stuff uninvolving, the Percussion Concerto rocks, and I find the "Mass for the Restoration of St Luke's in the Field" beautiful. If you haven't heard these, hunt them down. I believe they're both in print. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:16:01 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: fractal music? on 3/19/02 10:39 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote: > Are you trying to say that by simply being part of a mailing list you get > total immunity? That you can diss anybody as long as they are dead or not > on the list (with the careful sprinkling of IMHO)? > > Thanks for the clarification, > > Patrice. > In a word, yes. When you're talking about someone's work in a non-personal sense, that's one thing. Then you can debate the merits of their work as you wish, and nobody's personal feelings are on the chopping block because the merits of the thing in question are not really of personal import to anyone. To level a personal attack on someone in the (virtual) room is another matter, and nothing is more personal to creative people than the stuff they create. As I said before, I would leave my opinions to myself if it meant hurting the feelings of someone in on the discussion. If Lou Reed was a zorn-lister, I would not say a word (as I have not when I have been in a room with Lou Reed). I don't agree with Kate about a lot of things she holds dear, and, on those subjects, I feel okay saying I don't agree with her. But to call her work - -- or anybody's with whom I am having a discussion -- into question because I don't agree with her opinion is something with which I would not feel right. It certainly doesn't elevate the status of the person presenting the argument. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:29:16 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: Timothy Young / Keith Lowe "I thought they were competent players, but not outstanding. Maybe Sylvian never gave them the opportunity to bring something personal to the music."-- Exactly. Timothy Young is in my opinion the "BEST" living guitarist. I would have to recommend seeing him live in Zony Mash for his best playing. Luckily there is a live Zony Mash album coming out next week!(the studio albums never seem to do him justice). Also please check out his solo album "With Very Special People" on Endless Records. www.endlessrecords.com it is one of the greatest albums ever released. You can find more of his music at www.veryspecialforces.com this is his twisted pop music band VSF(unfortunatly they no longer exist).... Keith Lowe is the shit. That is all I can say about him. He is everywhere. There must be 5 or 6 Keith Lowe's....you can find out about all of his projects at www.moonliner.com John Schuller www.johnschuller.da.ru _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:54:15 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: fractal music? >>>As I said before, I would leave my opinions to myself if it meant hurting the feelings of someone in on the discussion.<<< Well, I'm sitting here in tears, so back off. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:02:36 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: fractal music? Skip, You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top respect. I totally disagree with that. I do not see anything special about mailing lists (and certainly do not consider them as "little villages") and I tend to be irritated at people who try to use them as a tribune to inflate their sense (rarely shared) of self-importance. Bottom line (for me at least): on one side a composer who has something to put on the table (regardless of what you think of him), on the other a young aspiring composer who feels intitled to dismiss the older one and have not proven anything yet (I can't remember anybody on this list expressing an opinion that might trigger a vague remote attempt at checking her out). Sorry, but I side with the old composer, one of the least reasons being that he has better things to do than lurking on this mailing list. Sorry if I destroy your sense of conviviality, Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:17:20 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: fractal music? on 3/19/02 12:02 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote: > > Skip, > > You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody > expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top > respect. I think everybody deserves the same respect. > I totally disagree with that. I do not see anything special about > mailing lists (and certainly do not consider them as "little villages") and > I tend to be irritated at people who try to use them as a tribune to inflate > their sense (rarely shared) of self-importance. I agree with you to a point. But I think mailing lists should be held to the same manners as any other social setting. > Bottom line (for me at least): on one side a composer who has > something to put on the table (regardless of what you think of him), on the > other a young aspiring composer who feels intitled to dismiss the older one > and have not proven anything yet (I can't remember anybody on this list > expressing an opinion that might trigger a vague remote attempt at checking > her out). Sorry, but I side with the old composer, one of the least reasons > being that he has better things to do than lurking on this mailing list. I don't think you need a track record in a given field in order to decide whether or not you percieve something as fraudulent. Similarly, I think you are allowed to say you think something is fraudulent without being subjected to a personal attack. > Sorry if I destroy your sense of conviviality, It's less conviviality than the fact that, the less time people spend defending their right to an opinion, the more you get to hear different opinions and information. Call it enlightened self-interest on my part. The arguments are only interesting to me in that they bring different points of view to the party. When it gets down to "You don't have the right to render a negative opinion of [insert name] because you don't have the track record", it impedes the flow of information. As for how valuable the time is spent on a mailing list, you could do worse than to keep yourself plugged into an enlightened consumer group. Some of us do a lot of mailing list time and also manage to generate enough music to feel okay with our output. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:23:52 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Subject: Re: fractal music? UFOrbK8@aol=2Ecom a =E9crit : > In a message dated 03=2E19=2E02 06=2E17=2E43, tp=2Eschakenbos@wanadoo=2Enl= writes: > > >Fractal music!? Are there bands around trying this out? I only am aware > >of the visual fractals=2E > > i certainly don't know of any bands who are using fractal business, but th= ere > is a wide array of composers (perhaps i should use the term lightly, here) > who use fractal mathematics and chaos theory principles to generate sound= =2E i > personally do not generally like the random soundbursts that this creates= =2E=2E=2E > charles wuorinen is probably the largest proponent of this b=2Es=2E i can = think > of=2E=2E=2E I know Ligeti's been very influenced by fractal maths and visuals & chaos th= eory for the past 20 years, with amazing musical results (Piano Etudes, Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto, to mention a few)=2E Key French composers such as G=E9rard Grisey, Tristan Murail, Pascal Dusapin= and others have also been involved with that stuff for years as well, with impressive results=2E Xenakis in his own way as well=2E (=2E=2E=2ENot =2E=2E=2Eexactly=2E=2E=2E=2E b=2Es=2E) D=2E - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:38:53 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: fractal music? On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:17:20 -0800 skip Heller wrote: > > > You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody > > expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top > > respect. > > I think everybody deserves the same respect. Typical statement that is easy to say, hard to apply. Sorry, but few of us are Mother Theresa. I totally disagreee. I think that people should only get the respect that they deserve (which is very different), and sure, we are likely to disagree with the criteria. Respect is something that you win. What everybody deserves is that you pay attention to what they say before you start to know them. After that, based on your opinion and your level of indulgence or patience, respect can grow or not. I am wondering if we have the same meaning for the word respect. Am I supposed to believe that you have the same respect for Uri Caine and Ornette Coleman? It is hard to believe based on what you said on the latter. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:48:26 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: fractal music? >>>Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does this put your own stuff?<<< Not the most vicious personal attack I've seen recently. And so what if it alters the flow so that K8 can say more about what she does and why she thinks it, as opposed to Wuorinen's oeuvre, is not BS? If K8 stands on ground which gives her the right to pronounce Wuorinen BS, surely it is no big deal for her to speak about her own aesthetic and its merits. Perhaps Skip's 'defense' is motivated by presuppositions about K8 and her art that are not really all that flattering. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:04:01 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: fractal music? on 3/19/02 12:38 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:17:20 -0800 skip Heller wrote: >> >>> You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody >>> expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top >>> respect. >> >> I think everybody deserves the same respect. > > Typical statement that is easy to say, hard to apply. Sorry, but few of us > are Mother Theresa. You give my aims credit for far too much humanity, but on the other hand, I am far from cynical. I tend to assume that people are credible until they prove me wrong. They do, often enough. > I totally disagreee. I think that people should only get the respect that > they deserve (which is very different), and sure, we are likely to disagree > with the criteria. Respect is something that you win. Actually, I am of the opinion that respect is something that you lose. I try to govern myself of the principal that everyone starts out worthy of respect, until they prove themselves idiotic. > I am wondering if we have the same meaning for the word respect. Am I supposed > to believe that you have the same respect for Uri Caine and Ornette Coleman? > It > is hard to believe based on what you said on the latter. Loaded question -- I've never thrown up in front of Ornette Coleman, and the gentlemanly comportment with which Uri handled the situation only served to enforce my respect. Actually, that's too glib. Let me put it is this way -- when I first read and heard about Ornette and took note of the stature accorded him by a certain segment of critical and musical community, I felt respectful enough to go out and buy, in one shot, all the Atlantic albums, because I felt that it was warranted. We all know the feeling I came away with after that. So I guess you could say he lost my respect. I take those albums out every so often to re-examine them in hopes that he will win back my respect, but that's not how it's gone. skip h - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #826 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com