From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #836 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, March 21 2002 Volume 03 : Number 836 In this issue: - Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry] Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry] sound-alikes RE: sound-alikes Re: sound-alikes Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry) RE:HOWCOME? Re: hip Hop Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry) Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry) Re: How Come? Re: Pierre Henry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:02:46 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) (...Hi Joseph!) The atomisation of humanity into little closed ethnic or religious clubs, besides being the surest way to rapid destruction of the species, has never been very interesting artistically either. 2 cases among many: Germanic music was at it's best (Bach through Romanticism) when it did'nt think of itself as historically superior, or even germanic in the first place(Mozart wrote operas in french and italian, Beethoven loved the French Revolution and Hinduist philosophy, etc.)!. When it did think itself as this falsly homogeneous, distinct and superior culture (post-Wagnerianism to the present, by way of the Third Reich) it stopped to produce things of much interest. Bela Bartok would have hated the label "Radical Hungarian" label and studied musics from all around central and eastern Europe (not to mention Turkey or North Africa) with equal interest and complete lack of nationalistic or ethnic vanity (his mother was Serbian and German, in fact). I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied territories of Palestine. As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to reality as the linking by some of Iran to North Korea. Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture. Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture. Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture. D. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:06:30 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry] On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:29:50 +0100 Thierry Raguin wrote: > > classification changes according to the FNAC you're going to (or it can > even change almost each month like it is the case in the FNAC of my home > town...) > At the Virgin in Paris, Magma is under "Variétés Françaises"!! Hey ! Stella Vander was a popular singer in the 60's :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:13:23 +0100 From: Thierry Raguin Subject: Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry] Patrice L. Roussel wrote: >On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:29:50 +0100 Thierry Raguin wrote: > >>classification changes according to the FNAC you're going to (or it can >>even change almost each month like it is the case in the FNAC of my home >>town...) >>At the Virgin in Paris, Magma is under "Variétés Françaises"!! >> > >Hey ! Stella Vander was a popular singer in the 60's :-). > > Patrice. > Right! And Jannick Top played for Johnny Halliday!!! Shame on him :-) - - TR - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:14:58 -0500 From: Mark Saleski Subject: sound-alikes like the grandmaster flash/tomtomclub thing, i've always wondered about the tune "Mickey's Monkey" by Mother's Finest. the music on the tune appears to be an exact copy of Led Zep's "Custard Pie". (words are different tho..) Mother's Finest - Another Mother Further (1977) Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti (1975) this is a case of obscure (at least to me...i only know of Mother's Finest because a friend of mine bought it used somewhere) vs. not so obscure.... i remember trying to find any mention of zeppelin in the liner notes ...nothing there. - -- Mark Saleski - marks@foliage.com | http://www.foliage.com/~marks "Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:03:40 -0500 From: "Sean Westergaard" Subject: RE: sound-alikes like the grandmaster flash/tomtomclub thing, i've always wondered about the tune "Mickey's Monkey" by Mother's Finest. the music on the tune appears to be an exact copy of Led Zep's "Custard Pie". (words are different tho..) >Mother's Finest - Another Mother Further (1977) >Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti (1975) >this is a case of obscure (at least to me...i only know of Mother's >Finest because a friend of mine bought it used somewhere) vs. not so >obscure.... >i remember trying to find any mention of zeppelin in the liner notes >...nothing there. i think that one (if actually a rip-off) falls under "turnabout is fair play" since Led Zep took songwriting credits on several Willie Dixon tunes sean - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:21:32 -0500 From: Mark Saleski Subject: Re: sound-alikes oh ya, i've never been pissed off at Mother's Finest or anything...just always wondered exactly what the deal was with that particular tune. Zeppelin definitely did some of their own, uh, borrowing... Sean Westergaard wrote: > > > >i think that one (if actually a rip-off) falls under "turnabout is fair >play" since Led Zep took songwriting credits on several Willie Dixon tunes > >sean > - -- Mark Saleski - marks@foliage.com | http://www.foliage.com/~marks "Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:34:40 -0800 From: Chris Selvig Subject: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry) Now that I've started this thread, I should confess to some deliberate misfiling in my record-store days. When I worked for The Candyman in Santa Fe, NM, I had carte blanche to expand the Pop section, but had I even suggested an "Experimental" section, I would have been the target of much yelling, pounding on desks, etc from the rather irascible owner. So our Pop section had such hummable folks as Hijokaidan, Merzbow, Nurse With Wound, A Handful of Dust, amidst the Led Zeppelin and Doors and Madonna. On the other hand, there are stores which take genre hairsplitting to such an extreme that one has to look in four or five sections just to make sure they haven't missed, say, Fushitsusha. The worst offender is the Rasputin's chain in the Bay Area, which has separate sections for Rock, Indie Rock, Punk Rock, Oldies, Prog Rock (that's where they keep Fushitsusha)... quite maddening. Amoeba is almost as bad, but it is still a great record store. My own collection is just filed alpha by artist/composer/group name, though I would never do that with a store. Chris Selvig - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:33:24 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: RE:HOWCOME? > >Who do you imagine is being "segregated" here? Aggregated, perhaps, >though I don't see how you could complain about that. I think that further division is wrong. Whether Segregated, aggregated, whatever. Wouldn't you? >>> what's crucial in defending tzadik's catagorization is, as has been pointed out here before, the divisions aren't ghettos. there are women, asians and jews all in the composer series, for example. tzadik is pretty damn savy at marketing, and if people interested in hearing women in new music, for example, hear about something called "the oracle series", they might well be more likely to investigate than if they were just told "oh, there's this label in new york." and then maybe they'll move on to the ruins or alvin lucier or danny cohen. don't bother me none. but whilst pigeonholing, this has come up before, but any new thoughts on what defines the key series? zorn apparently won't say why it is what it is. seems like it's works that are sort of building blocks to different realms of music, like a starter series in a way, but there aren't really enough out yet to test the theory. kurt _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:52:07 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: hip Hop Skip Heller said: > The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best. > Well, to some extent but check out David Toop's "Rap Attack" for a counter-argument. Besides' Flash's own Caribbean connection, note that a lot of Jamaican hits in the '70's were made from another popular reggae song being played in the background that a new singer (toaster) would free-associate over- basically, the same thing that rappers were all doing in the beginning (and now). Best, Jason - -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:20:58 -0600 From: William Crump Subject: Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry) Amoeba's categorizations seem a little more thought out to me, whereas Rasputin's sound like some A&R guy made them up. I like that Amoeba takes the time to distinguish between in their SF Japanese section between J-Pop and Japanese noise (Boredoms, Ruins). Wouldn't want to get those mixed up. Speaking of the Bay Area, a pal in Nottingham England of all places turned me on to the Aquarius Records mailing list and website. Judging from their biweekly "New Arrivals" e-newsletter, the folks there spend an incredible amount of time listening carefully and writing decently-thought-out reviews for the education of their customers, a true public service. Their selection looks almost as eclectic as Amoeba's and best of all, they do mail order, which Amoeba doesn't. I've already started ordering from them since moving back to Missippistan from Californabad. They're at www.aquariusrecords.org, and highly recommended. William Crump Chris Selvig wrote: > The worst offender is the Rasputin's chain in the Bay Area, which > has separate sections for Rock, Indie Rock, Punk Rock, Oldies, Prog > Rock (that's where they keep Fushitsusha)... quite maddening. Amoeba > is almost as bad, but it is still a great record store. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:26:16 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:20:58 -0600 William Crump wrote: > > Amoeba's categorizations seem a little more thought out to me, whereas > Rasputin's sound like some A&R guy made them up. I like that Amoeba > takes the time to distinguish between in their SF Japanese section > between J-Pop and Japanese noise (Boredoms, Ruins). Wouldn't want to get > those mixed up. One (in)famous record store in Paris (Puces, Clignancourt, if I remember well) used to put records in alphabetical order... by first name first! One of the few advantages of this system was that if you were looking for MUSIQUE CONCRETE you could go right away to the "Pierre" section :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:46:51 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How Come? On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:45:54PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > I am not complaining about others political correctness. Well, yes, you were. > I think it is only > right to look past things such as Gender/Race. Stated in the abstract, perhaps, which shows a bug in the generalization. > I think this is important in > all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love > with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever. The examples you choose are revealing. In each of these cases, it could be argued that you've chosen situations where somebody might rule someone out of a position/situation because of that other person's group identity. But what could be wrong with someone choosing to opt in to a group of people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experiences? > Please tell me where I > am being insensitive? See above. > The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in > whether that person is qualified for whatever. Yet you insist that location is a valid parameter for prejudice. Why? > Of course if the person is > someone you could not love (incompatible, they are an idiot etc.) you will > show prejudice against that and therefore not choose them. Would you agree > that it is important to look past things you are born as? Would you agree that it helps to consider common backgrounds, influences, and experiences? > >Who do you imagine is being "segregated" here? Aggregated, perhaps, > >though I don't see how you could complain about that. > > I think that further division is wrong. Whether Segregated, aggregated, > whatever. Wouldn't you? See above. > >Again, not exactly true. The huge majority of people never change > >religion from the one that they were born into. > > The word "change" is the crucial one. Are you born knowing Jesus? As long as > you know how to make a decision you can change your mind about something > like a religion. Of course I know there are circumstances where you cannot > "announce" that you do not believe a certain way, but that does not make a > final end all decision in one's mind does it? Er, what? (I find your quick reference to being "born knowing Jesus" revealing. As a strongly-identified Jew, I probably would not have made that reference.) > >To avoid hitting the Godwin Point of bringing up the Nazis > >immediately, do you imagine that the conflicts in the Balkan, Ireland, > >etc, are due to "lifestyle choices"? > > > >(One usually sees that phrase used to denigrate gay identity. It is > >disappointing to see it further misused here.) > > How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion? How is it appropriate? > I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is, > where is the instruction manual? And yet you believe that it is so for religion? That belief would show, at best, a shallow understanding of what religion is and means for its adherents. > > > It really doen not matter to me if the person > > > I am listening to is whatever. > > > >So why dost thou protest so much? Does it bother you that the person > >chooses to identify him/herself as a member of a group? > > No, I think if someone wants to identify with a certain group they should. > But I also think there is something weird/wrong about Malt Liquor > advertising targeted towards African-Americans. Well, I find something wrong with most advertising. > >And, indeed, you are. The situation that you are imagining is one in > >which you might be *forced* in some unsaid way to buy music based on > >some aspect of a musician's identity. Can you point to any situation > >whatsoever in which this is the case? Can you point to any situation > >in which a musician was forced in any way to identify him/herself in > >such a way? > > Of course not. I don't believe that I am ever forced to buy music. I choose > to buy music. Do you think that one should buy music because it is made by a > woman? Or a man? Or because it is good music? The problem is your use of "should". I enjoy being able to find music that comes from people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experience, and find that I tend to enjoy that music. Why does this bother you? > >Why does it bother you that some musicians choose to identify > >themselves as members of groups? What is conceivably lost to anyone by > >their making that choice? > > Well, if further separation by races or gender is something that someone > wants- nothing. Otherwise, I say lets all be cool and hang at each others > parties. And, of course, nothing prevents a man from buying "women's music", or a Christian from buying anything on the Radical Jewish Culture series. > > > Otherwise it is just as sad > > > as "Buy this Jennifer Lopez album! She is HOT!". A bunch of Minstrel > >show > > > shit. > > > >The jaw simply drops at such a characterization. > > Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick. You find the existence of Jewish music repulsive and sick? > I am born this way > so let me entertain the masses, because this is my option right now. It is > all sick. But I am in no sense obligated to buy music presented in this way, any more than you are obligated to buy Jewish music. > > > > > And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese > >series---It > > > >is > > > > > cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the > >planet. > > > > > > > >So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that > >in > > > >any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a > > > >culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why? > > > > > > Location is just location. > > > >And therefore what? > > > > And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less... And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think are bad? - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:53:54 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Pierre Henry On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 01:58:56PM -0600, Whit Schonbein wrote: > > A local record store here in St. Louis, Missouri, has the ruins filed > under 'Misc. Classical, R.'. Normally, I would assume that some > non-employee stashed it there to keep someone else from buying it, but > knowing this place, you never can tell. Other observations from the same > store: Kevin Drumm goes in Jazz, but Taku Sugimoto & Kevin Drumm duo goes > under pop/rock. Aube goes under dance/electronica, along with pierre > henry, but morton subotnick goes under 'Misc. Classical S'., and merzbow > goes under pop/rock. The fake soundtrack to 'soul ecstacy' (a non-existent > movie) by dj me, dj you goes under, what else, 'soundtracks'. Otomo > yoshihide duo with christain marclay goes under electronica/dance, while > otmo's new jazz quintet goes under 'jazz', and Cathode goes under 'Misc. > Classical Y'. Bernard Gunter goes under both 'pop/rock' and > 'Misc. new age G'. Vandermark 5 oscillates between jazz and pop/rock, > depending on who stocks it. Unknown Tzadik titles often get put in the > john zorn section (but not masada - someone makes a new card for that). > it's quite random. I often wonder what i might find in the country > section, but by that time i'm too tired from looking through everything > else. Sounds like several people, with varying amount of knowledge, are shelving the discs, with "pop/rock" serving as the default. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #836 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com