From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #837 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, March 21 2002 Volume 03 : Number 837 In this issue: - Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content) Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content) Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content) Re: How Come? Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: How Come? Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: Stockhausen's Light Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: Stockhausen's Light ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:56:15 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content) On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:10:29PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote: > "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a > song by chic. Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be? - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:00:16 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content) On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:56:15PM -0600, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:10:29PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote: > > > "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a > > song by chic. > > Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be? Waitaminnit, my brain was still set on "White Lines". Never mind. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:15:01 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:02:46PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote: > Germanic music was at it's best (Bach through Romanticism) when it > did'nt think of itself as historically superior, or even germanic in the > first place(Mozart wrote operas in french and italian, Beethoven loved > the French Revolution and Hinduist philosophy, etc.)!. When it did think > itself as this falsly homogeneous, distinct and superior culture > (post-Wagnerianism to the present, by way of the Third Reich) it stopped > to produce things of much interest. The difference here is that Radical Jewish Culture in no way presents itself as "superior" to other music. And the artists in the series continue to work within other contexts. > Bela Bartok would have hated the label "Radical Hungarian" label and > studied musics from all around central and eastern Europe (not to > mention Turkey or North Africa) with equal interest and complete lack of > nationalistic or ethnic vanity (his mother was Serbian and German, in > fact). And I don't think anyone would argue with his choices there. > I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful > taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied > territories of Palestine. That evinces either a confusion of Judaism as a whole with the specific implementation of Zionism regrettably in prectice there, or simple anti-Jewish prejudice. Which is it? > As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this > umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to > reality as the linking by some of Iran to North Korea. I raised my eyebrow at those choices too, and didn't get them. But I don't begrudge Zorn his ability to choose to package and release these recordings in this way, and am intrigued by the way that these releases raised the issue of what Jewish Culture actually is. > Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture. > Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture. > Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture. And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is to release the Radical Jewish Culture series. Congratulations. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:31:31 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content) on 3/21/02 3:56 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote: > On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:10:29PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote: > >> "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a >> song by chic. > > Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be? "Good Times", wasn't it? That was an early staple for MCs back in the day. It was the backing track for "Rapper's Delight" and several other things (whose names slip my memory). skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:35:26 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How Come? What the hell are you talking about? > > I am not complaining about others political correctness. > >Well, yes, you were. where? Please show me. Tell me how I did it. > > > I think it is only > > right to look past things such as Gender/Race. > >Stated in the abstract, perhaps, which shows a bug in the >generalization. What? Wow. How deep and methodical you are. Yes, I take it back. Let's start treating people differently. Since Women are "so" inferior to men why not just keep it that way right? I don't think so. I don't think that we have to get all "Mr. Literature Professor" style either... > > > I think this is important in > > all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love > > with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever. > >The examples you choose are revealing. In each of these cases, it >could be argued that you've chosen situations where somebody might >rule someone out of a position/situation because of that other >person's group identity. > >But what could be wrong with someone choosing to opt in to a group of >people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experiences? Reveal What? Answer this or I will not reply to anymore of your questions. I am serious. Reveal what? No. As I have said before opt in with whatever group you want. > > > > The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in > > whether that person is qualified for whatever. > >Yet you insist that location is a valid parameter for prejudice. Why? Location is the answer. > > > final end all decision in one's mind does it? > >Er, what? (I find your quick reference to being "born knowing Jesus" >revealing. As a strongly-identified Jew, I probably would not have >made that reference.) Reveal what again? Answer please. >> > How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion? > >How is it appropriate? Because there are things in the world that you make a choice to do and things you don't. Religion is a choice. Simple as that. Is it not? I can choose to be buddhist, mormon, christian, or have no religion. Therefore it is a lifestyle choice. > > > I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is, > > where is the instruction manual? > >And yet you believe that it is so for religion? That belief would >show, at best, a shallow understanding of what religion is and means >for its adherents. Sorry. It is. > > > > Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick. > >You find the existence of Jewish music repulsive and sick? Oh yes. Sure. It smells bad too. Really stinky. Yeah, I am in favor of everyone being treated equally in all aspects of life except Jewish Music. Why do you even say that? >>And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less... > >And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think >are bad? > Because it is location. And I know this answer bothers you. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:37:21 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry? _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:53:20 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:37:21 -0800 "john schuller" wrote: > > Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry? I don't think he is. Joseph is quite consistent when arguing. I know, by experience, that if I say that the sky is blue, he will try to prove me that this is a biased statement exhibiting my lack of perspective. If I insist, he will add that since the sun does not produce a pure spectral line, my statement is unfounded. If I keep on insisting, he will wonder from what part of the universe I am coming from. Usually we get both tired and the argument dies based on mutual implicit consensus. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:12:00 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How Come? On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:35:26PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > What the hell are you talking about? See below. > > > I am not complaining about others political correctness. > > > >Well, yes, you were. > > where? Please show me. Tell me how I did it. "But I truly think that in the age of "Political Correctness" that we really need to stop exploiting or segregating people further based upon their ethnicity/ gender." > > > I think it is only > > > right to look past things such as Gender/Race. > > > >Stated in the abstract, perhaps, which shows a bug in the > >generalization. > > What? Wow. How deep and methodical you are. Yes, I take it back. Let's start > treating people differently. Since Women are "so" inferior to men why not > just keep it that way right? I don't think so. I don't think that we have to > get all "Mr. Literature Professor" style either... Is that supposed to be intelligible? What *are* you talking about? > > > I think this is important in > > > all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love > > > with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever. > > > >The examples you choose are revealing. In each of these cases, it > >could be argued that you've chosen situations where somebody might > >rule someone out of a position/situation because of that other > >person's group identity. > > > >But what could be wrong with someone choosing to opt in to a group of > >people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experiences? > > Reveal What? Answer this or I will not reply to anymore of your questions. I > am serious. Reveal what? Reveal that, at the least, you have not considered why people might choose to associate themselves with others of like backsgrounds, influences, and experiences. > No. As I have said before opt in with whatever group you want. This contradicts your dislike for these recording projects. Care to reconsider one or the other? > > > The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in > > > whether that person is qualified for whatever. > > > >Yet you insist that location is a valid parameter for prejudice. Why? > > Location is the answer. Why? I find it intruiguing that you keep ducking this. > > > final end all decision in one's mind does it? > > > >Er, what? (I find your quick reference to being "born knowing Jesus" > >revealing. As a strongly-identified Jew, I probably would not have > >made that reference.) > > Reveal what again? Answer please. > >> > How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion? > > > >How is it appropriate? > > Because there are things in the world that you make a choice to do and > things you don't. Religion is a choice. Simple as that. Is it not? I can > choose to be buddhist, mormon, christian, or have no religion. Therefore it > is a lifestyle choice. Either this is ridiculously simplistic, or you are using an odd meaning for "lifestyle". What *are* you talking about? > > > I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is, > > > where is the instruction manual? > > > >And yet you believe that it is so for religion? That belief would > >show, at best, a shallow understanding of what religion is and means > >for its adherents. > > Sorry. It is. I take it you cede the point, having found yourself unable to support your previously stated view? > > > Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick. > > > >You find the existence of Jewish music repulsive and sick? > > Oh yes. Sure. It smells bad too. Really stinky. Yeah, I am in favor of > everyone being treated equally in all aspects of life except Jewish Music. > Why do you even say that? On the basis of your own comments. > >>And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less... > > > >And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think > >are bad? > > > > Because it is location. And I know this answer bothers you. If it were an answer, it might. But, as rereading your messages shows, it is not an answer but a repeated evasion. What is your answer? - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:14:13 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:37:21PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry? Into what text are you injecting a perception of anger? Since the anger does not come from me, its source is worth examination/ - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:17:25 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:53:20PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > I don't think he is. Joseph is quite consistent when arguing. I know, by > experience, that if I say that the sky is blue, he will try to prove me > that this is a biased statement exhibiting my lack of perspective. You know you would find life much easier if you just admitted that John Cage invented the sky :-) > If > I insist, he will add that since the sun does not produce a pure spectral > line, my statement is unfounded. (Weirdly, here in New Jersey where I grew up and am now (stuck?), the sky is almost always overcase and off-white. I used to wonder, until I moved to Texas, why people referred to the sky as "blue".) - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:29:32 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light In a message dated 03.21.02 12.36.59, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: >Honsetly curious here: what do you love about Stockhausen, that you >find missing in other very similar sounding music that you referred to >earlier as "bullshit"? because i honestly believe that some of stockhausen's less 'aesthetically appealing' pieces were project pieces - a means to an end. pieces like the licht cycle and stimmung and kreuzpiel and zyklus make up for it ten or twenty-fold. love, k8. - --- [.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.] k a t e p e t e r s o n c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:30:45 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to wonder what planet I was from. >From: "Patrice L. Roussel" >To: "john schuller" >CC: jzitt@metatronpress.com, y-man@wanadoo.fr, >zorn-list@lists.xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com >Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:53:20 -0800 > >On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:37:21 -0800 "john schuller" wrote: > > > > Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry? > >I don't think he is. Joseph is quite consistent when arguing. I know, by >experience, that if I say that the sky is blue, he will try to prove me >that this is a biased statement exhibiting my lack of perspective. If >I insist, he will add that since the sun does not produce a pure spectral >line, my statement is unfounded. If I keep on insisting, he will wonder >from what part of the universe I am coming from. Usually we get both >tired and the argument dies based on mutual implicit consensus. > > Patrice. > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:26:24 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 07:29:32PM -0500, UFOrbK8@aol.com wrote: > because i honestly believe that some of stockhausen's less 'aesthetically > appealing' pieces were project pieces - a means to an end. pieces like the > licht cycle and stimmung and kreuzpiel and zyklus make up for it ten or > twenty-fold. OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some sense, transitional? Perhaps more than most, Stockhausen has had the support and opportunity to evolve along varied paths. (Including, perhaps most strikingly, the Intuitive Pieces, which were a hard break from the formula-based (though not formulaic!) work that he continues through Licht.) I wonder what Wuorinen could have done in Stockhausen's situation. I wonder what either of us would do if funded to create and produce a seven opera cycle... - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #837 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. 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