From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #840 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, March 22 2002 Volume 03 : Number 840 In this issue: - Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) Re: musique concrete dead??? Pascal comelade (was: Musique concrete dead?) Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom Fela Kuti Ooops!... Britney again! Safina (from Fela Kuti) RE: Ooops!... Britney again! Reed-Bacharach Re: Reed-Bacharach Gil Scott Heron (wuz hip hop) [berne] scifri .nzc. Re: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 02:14:08 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) I am done with you. You outta check out female genetalia sometime. It's nice. >From: Joseph Zitt >To: john schuller >CC: y-man@wanadoo.fr, zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:32:19 -0600 > >On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:27:54PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > > > > > > Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every > > >piece of > > > > deluded grammar in your life. > > > > > >And from where is this perception injected? > > > > It is what you do. > >Based on your perception of a single day's writing? > > > >I take it that you finally acknowledge your inability to answer the > > >questions asked? > > > > Nope I was being sarcastic. I feel sorry for your friends, family and co > > workers if this is how you always act. Do you such "intellectual >debates" in > > your head when you wipe your butt? Do I wipe forward? Do I wipe from >behind? > > Do I fold it twice, if I do will I contradict all of my previous wipings >in > > the past? > >Ah, does this fit is with your repeated references to genitalia in >other messages? > >-- >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | >| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | >| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | >| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | >| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:59:06 -0500 From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: musique concrete dead??? I haven't read Schaeffer's TOM, but my understanding of musique concrete is as composition with materials sampled from a given sound source, no longer dependent on preconceived sound abstractions, but on existing sound fragments considered as defined and complete sound objects. In his own work, Schaeffer used not only environmental sounds, most famously the locomotives in his first noise =E9tude, but also more traditional instrumental sounds (one of the other noise =E9tudes used the piano as the sole sound source). With this definition, it's easy to find compositions from the last 10-15 years that are musique concrete and do not contain any electronically produced sound (the common denominator for all 'electronic music'). Bernhard G=FCnter generally doesn't specify his sound sources, but hasn't generated any electronic sounds since his earliest compositions. Francisco L=F3pez has used rain forest or city noise for several compositions. Soundscape artists like Eric La Casa and Hildegard Westerkamp don't use electronically generated sound, although pure soundscapes use the sound as a reference to a real place and not as a sound object. Jonathan Coleclough's composition Windlass is composed solely from sounds from a lock at a dam. John Wall and Paul Dolden have composed several pieces from recorded instrumental sounds. Robert Normandeau's Tangram album has pieces composed solely from sounds of children reading from a dictionary. A more recent empreintes digitales release by Adrian Moore has an amazing piece composed solely from sounds from a whiteboard marker. I would not consider Oswald's plunderphonics to be musique concrete because it relies on the listener's recognition of the underlying sound source, which is contrary to Schaeffer's sound object definition. It is undeniable that Stockhausen's Gesang ended *a* debate that was raging in the late 1940s-early 1950s about concrete vs. electronic music. But if there is a *musical* definition of musique concrete instead of just a historical one (and I believe there is), the genre is clearly alive and well. =20 At 09:46 AM 3/21/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > >It would be interesting to shed some light on the motives behind the use of >the name MUSIQUE CONCRETE (by these younger composers). Could it be simply >that electronic music these days encompasses so many different genres from= =20 >the most obscure to the most commercial, that a different label was=20 >needed?=20 > >On the other side, MUSIQUE CONCRETE belongs to a bigone era and has a=20 >quaint charm. It might help young creators of experimental electroacoustic >music to differentiate themselves from an expression ("electronic music")= =20 >that has lost any power of classification (and I know, reading REVUE &=20 >CORRIGEE, that has annoyed some of these new composers). > >I feel that these composers who produce music under the MUSIQUE CONCRETE >umbrella espoused more the philosophy of the MUSIQUE CONCRETE than really >its fairly draconian methodology. =20 > >Anyway, historically, after Stockhausen's GESANG DER JUNGLINGE (1956), the= =20 >differentiation between MUSIQUE CONCRETE and electronic music lost its=20 >relevance. Happy to know that some composers want to open the debate=20 >again :-). > > Patrice. > >- > > > - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:14:37 +0000 (WET) From: Ricardo Reis Subject: Pascal comelade (was: Musique concrete dead?) > metal office bureaus, toys (think of pierre bastien and pascal comelade), > Best wishes, > Stefan Verstraeten can you shed some more light about Pascal Comelade? greets, Ricardo Reis "Non Serviam" - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:31:57 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom Joseph Zitt a =E9crit : > On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:22:59AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote: > > > > > > Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon? > > > > Surely not, but chauvinism (of any sort) has got to go=2E Very dangerous= stuff=2E > > So how would you balance these? And where you choose to paint > "chauvinism" in this issue? See below=2E > > > If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety? > > > > Celebrate it in your work, or in your life=2E > > Yet you protest Zorn, et al, doing exactly that=2E Do you see the > contradiction? The music has never been the issue=2E The packaging, yes=2E Packaging can be= important=2E Wagner's packaging offends many and all too often obscures the remarkable an= d universal qualities of his music=2E > > Just don't wave a flag about it=2E > > The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U=2ES=2E, I und= erstand) > > The problem here is that you misperceive the issue as being about > "flags"=2E Come on, you know perfectly well what is meant here: proselitism, clanic thi= nking,"Us" vs=2E"Them", "the N=2EY=2E Mets kick the Miami Dolphins' asses", not so inno= cuous when connected to religion or race (as you pointed out, this is better understood= in Europe for obvious reasons) and placed just a little bit outside of rarified cosmop= olitan intellectual circles=2E If there is only one God, then he also made the Quakers and the Hindus and t= he atheists, so why not just leave it at that and come off of our little pedest= als and cubicles, embrace one another, stop bickering or boasting about "Our" Shiny = City on the Hill or "Our" Chosen People=2E > Again, you confuse religion and state action=2E > > > > Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action=2E > > > > > > And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large numbe= r > > > of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If > > > not, why the vehemence here? > > > > I never said, however much you'd like to hear it, that the Jewish faith = was any > > different from any other in that respect (in fact it's been better than = others, if > > only out of necessity)=2E > > Then why do you choose specifically to denigrate just Judaism? First, I denigrate proselitism, if anything=2E Second, did'nt this start out as a discussion of Zorn's Radical Jewish serie= s? Had it been about so and so's Radical Basque series, I would question that l= abeling in exactly the same way=2E Why do you need to paint anybody who questions or criticizes your viewpoint = as an antisemite? > > I do believe in strict separation of State and Church=2E But Israel bein= g a > > religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one = could > > conveniantly perform the separation=2E > > Do you understand that not all Jews support the actions of the current > Israeli government, and some do not even recognize the government, or > even the existence of the state of Israel in the first place, as > valid? > > To assume that every Jew agrees with every action of the government of > Israel is precisely the same as assuming that every Christian (yes, > including Russian Orthodox and Protestant) agrees with every action of > the Vatican or that every Muslim agreed with every action of the > Taliban=2E Or perhaps, for that matter, that every atheist agrees with > every action of People's Republic of China=2E I find "radical atheists" narrow-minded, and the crimes of Stalin, Hitler, M= ao and Pol Pot would forever prevent me from claiming to be a "Radical Atheist"=2E > I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American > disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W=2E Bush=2E Of course not, since I and my family happen to be American=2E However, Rumsfeld and W=2E do share your problem of not understanding why so= me people find certain wordings unnecessarily provocative, like "Crusade", "Evil", "Zi= onist", "Radical Jewish", etc=2E > I think the problem is that you have, mistakenly and far too easily, mappe= d the > statements and actions of people who happen to be in office at a given > time onto the supposed thoughts of all those who ostensibly are in > their jurisdiction=2E (And even in that, your perception of the > jurisdiction of the Israeli government is phenomenally inaccurate=2E) > Do you agree with every statement and action of every official in France? = If not, why > do you assume this of others? When France collaborated with and covered up the genocide of the Tutsis in R= wanda (1994), I did'nt go around waving a French flag=2E Even less a Radical Hutu one=2E > To quote Daniel Pearl, "I am a Jew=2E My mother and father are Jews=2E" Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as "radical muslim= s"=2E That's just the problem I have with the self-definition as "radical", radica= lism as a whole, and religious or ethnic fervor in general=2E You don't have to remind me that many religious or ethnic radicals are peace= - -loving=2E It does'nt change the problematic connection=2E In fact, where are the mass demonstrations of Muslims against Osama Bin Lade= n, of Jews against Sharon or the settlers, Catholics and Protestants against Irish terr= orism and for reconciliation? The smallest local soccer game gets more crowds than all= of the above in a decade=2E > I live within a rich religious culture, as well as a rich secular > culture in which the religious culture is able to flourish and > celebrate itself, and in a country where I am able to work within both > these religious and secular areas and, yes, able to protest when I > disagree with the officials of this and other governments=2E > > I offer no apologies for this, and suggest that your misperceptions > might benefit from considering it=2E To imply that I would have expected you to apologize for something is to put= me falsely in the position of an oppressor which nothing I've written to you justifies= =2E Your identification with Daniel Pearl during this discussion (what is that s= upposed to make me?) confirms the impression that for you criticism and debate can only= be connected to martyrdom or not be=2E I have no problem saying that I respect your approach to culture, art and re= ligion, and in fact that I've learned some things from some of your answers=2E I hope you've come to at least seeing how and why one can think like I (and = several others) do=2E D=2E > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:37:18 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Fela Kuti Hey guys. My local shop has a bunch of Fela Kuti things for sale, and I'm wondering if I should pick them up. There is so much of his stuff suddenly rereleased and frankly, not all of it is worth owning. So, has anybody heard any of the following: "Upside Down?Music Of Many Colors" "Open & Close/Afrodisiac" "Monkey Banana/Excuse" I think "Shuffering & Shmiling" is a masterpiece and "Live In berlin" is really great as well. The newer stuff, like "Beast Of No Nation" I find really dreadful. And while we are at it. Both Antibalas Afrobeat Orchestra and Secret Chiefs 3 have excellent covers of a song called "Safina". Who worte that, and where is it origianlly from?? Other great recording of this beautiful composition out there??? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:42:48 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= Subject: Ooops!... Britney again! Hi, Today the Spanish audience will enjoy the theatrical release of "Crossroads" with our pop-icon Britney Spears as the main subject (virginity, sex-discovering, ...). But what shocked me is the name of the director: Tamra Davis. If my memory serves, Davis is the wife of one of Beastie Boys' members and has directed some Sonic Youth videos. In fact, SY dedicated one song to her, "Tamra" in their album "Goo" if I recall. Are the "underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the same person?! Everyone's got a price... Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: William Parker "O'Neals Porch" _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:40:45 -0500 From: "Darti Bastamai" Subject: Safina (from Fela Kuti) "And while we are at it. Both Antibalas Afrobeat Orchestra and Secret Chiefs 3 have excellent covers of a song called "Safina". Who worte that, and where is it origianlly from?? Other great recording of this beautiful composition out there??? " I believe it is a variation on "Musicawi Sitt" by a band called The Daktari's . _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:46:47 -0500 From: "Darti Bastamai" Subject: RE: Ooops!... Britney again! >Are the "underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the same person?!< It probably the same person, but I think it is the difference of a Britney Spears movie being a means to make money, where as "underground filmmaker" is an expression of art. A good example is Henry Miller... he was an excellent writer, but also wrote porn-for-hire stories when he was broke... its a matter of getting by, and I don't think anyone would confuse a money job for art... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:33:25 -0500 From: "patbor" Subject: Reed-Bacharach Hello, do I find someone who thinks that Bacharach has influenced Lou Reed's songwriting? Reed has payed tribute to Kurt Weill and Doc Pomus but never arranged a song by Bacharach. Still I think there are many connections between the two, especially in ballads. What do You think? Bye PatB - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:55:55 EST From: Nvinokur@aol.com Subject: Re: Reed-Bacharach In a message dated 3/22/02 8:36:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, patbor@buzzle.com writes: << do I find someone who thinks that Bacharach has influenced Lou Reed's songwriting? >> As we all know, Elvis was influenced by Dean Martin - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:12:38 -0800 (PST) From: aaron chua Subject: Gil Scott Heron (wuz hip hop) while on the topic of GSH, i'm curious where to start with him. seems to be a heap of comps out there. rgrds aaron ps for a funny take on hiphop check out Gold Chains ( i believe Kit Clayton is involved somehow). Very slick production. i think they (?) are touring w/ Super Collider. (the band not the software) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:57:10 -0800 (PST) From: jason tors Subject: [berne] scifri .nzc. I got science friction in the mail yesterday. Its a real surprise, a bit of a departure, but a logical one for tim. The combination of craig taborn and ducret works really well, providing very distinct texture leaving the punchy drums, btw I think that rainey has to be telepathic, there are some things that he catches on to that are just uncanny. Tim is on quite a recording growth spurt, I am still digesting open, coma and now this. On my second run thru I am noticing greater integration of written sections and freewheeling. Craig creates some interesting electronic sections, he is really impressing me lately, his trio disc is super dense. On the ornette tip, this might be me just reading into things, but the title, science friction, one of the song titles is manatee woman [tim has the best song titles!] something about the surface sound of this instrumentation reminds me slightly of ornette's song x, but its really surface. Is there a connection? Any thoughts on the new cobra release? np: berne.sciencefriction __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:16:18 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) >From: Joseph Zitt >Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur) > >Part of these efforts are the recognition that there is something to >be gained from appreciating and working with the colourful and mostly >benign variety within humankind. To look at one of the most egregious >exemplars of globalism, I understand that McDonald's franchises in >Israel, Japan, and France, for example, are far from identical. Indeed. If you go to Bombay, you can buy a Maharashtra Burger made naturally from pork. In Bangkok, pork burgers are preferred over beef ones. Here in Seoul, Burger King has decided that a diner aesthetic with photos of Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, and jazz record albums of the fifties and sixties in the US is what sells burgers. If you go to a 7-11 in Bangkok or Seoul, you can get dried squid rather than beef jerky. All of the major US corporations abroad play the game this way. The multinational sells itself by adopting local taste. - ------------------------------------- William L. Ashline Department of English Language and Literature Yonsei University Seoul, Korea 120-749 http://www.yonsei.ac.kr/YSI/ysi?a=eng.academic.AcademicView&Depth=4&Code=030010002003 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #840 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. 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