From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #843 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, March 22 2002 Volume 03 : Number 843 In this issue: - Re: How Come? Re: flag-waving flag-waving and anti-heroes Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom RE: Coltrane Gold Collection Re: flag-waving and anti-heroes RE: How Come? RE: How Come? Re: original non-remastered cd's, Was: Re: eno & remastering Fwd: Re: knocking on the floodgates Re: knocking on the floodgates Re: flag-waving ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:55:46 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How Come? >A "knob"? > > > You cannot sense sarcasm. > >Except when expressed effectively. (And, as anyone who has been online >awhile knows, email, without the additional channels of communication >available through live speech, such as facial expressions, is >specifically ill-suited to sarcasm.) That would lead me to think then, that someone of your intellect needs smiley faces :) after each piece of sarcasm? > >As for the other supposed points, I see that you are set in your >dogmatism, and that no amount of explanation will have any effect >other that spawning your further flights of nonsense. I suggest >Remedial Reading, less caffeine, and maybe even meeting people other >than yourself. I have to ask where this misconception comes from? Is this some way to say perhaps that if someone is illiterate, enjoys caffeine and agoraphobic that they are less then human? That they are less than you? And please explain to me how religion is not a choice? Explain how it is something you are born as such as Race or Gender. I don't think you can and that is why you avoid the issue. If you can, then I will believe that you are the intellect you use the internet arena to pretend that you are. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:02:21 -0500 From: Mark Saleski Subject: Re: flag-waving skip wrote: >I don't know that intellectuals speaking out has ever solved anything -- >were it only that simple. in this country, intellectuals aren't allowed to speak out unless they're conservative. everyone else is tarred with the "liberal elite" label. dissent is certainly shouted down as being un-patriotic. it's a sad thing. >Now, those events have been replaced by TV news stories -- little "human >interest" items" -- about the 90 year old woman with a flag on the antenna >of her car. now the whole flag phenomenon...i've never been comfortable with the whole flag-waving-america-love-it-or-leave-it-you-commie-bastard thing. after september 11 tons and tons of american flags showed up on houses in every us location. i even put one up on my house. why? mostly as a tribute lost lives. i have more ambivalent feelings about the war. the pressure here is to get behind the government because, of course, it's doing the right thing? well is it? how the hell would we know? as skip points out, because of corporate ownership of all of the major media outlets, you're getting only part of the story. i became concerned with loss of civilian life over there. there were a few (very few) stories about this over here...much more in europe (at least in the websites is was checking out). so in my mind the issues are pretty complicated. from looking at the polling numbers, most folks are indeed behind our government's actions. i'm not sure what exactly that means. oh...i don't own any garth brooks records....but i do have a couple of shania twain cds... mark - -- Mark Saleski - marks@foliage.com | http://www.foliage.com/~marks "Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:00:54 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Subject: flag-waving and anti-heroes Il s'agit d'un message multivolet au format MIME. - --------------12610FFEF9A525B98566E646 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------12610FFEF9A525B98566E646 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3C9B7EF7.B3AE7111@wanadoo.fr> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:59:03 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Reply-To: y-man@wanadoo.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: skip Heller Subject: Re: flag-waving References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > We're not holding up Elliot Carter or Sonny Rollins as the ambassadors of > our best kind of thinking. We send out Garth Brooks. I don't know how to break the news, skip, but Garth Brooks is litterally unknown outside the US. Country music in my experience is almost strictly an internal U.S.consumption thing. It's people such as Lou Reed, Mink DeVille or Tom Waits who are big respectable stuff in Europe (perenial sucker for "anti-heroes", preferably junkies and dressed in black). D. > - --------------12610FFEF9A525B98566E646-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:01:35 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:31:57PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote: > > > > If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety? > > > > > > Celebrate it in your work, or in your life. > > > > Yet you protest Zorn, et al, doing exactly that. Do you see the > > contradiction? > > The music has never been the issue. The packaging, yes. Packaging can be important. As explained in other messages, and can be seen from examining the content of the series, the music and the packaging are inextricable. > Wagner's packaging offends many and all too often obscures the remarkable and universal > qualities of his music. Universal qualities? I find Wagner boring as hell. But the Marvel comics series based on the Ring cycle rocked. > > > Just don't wave a flag about it. > > > The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U.S., I understand) > > > > The problem here is that you misperceive the issue as being about > > "flags". > > Come on, you know perfectly well what is meant here: proselitism, clanic thinking,"Us" > vs."Them", "the N.Y. Mets kick the Miami Dolphins' asses", not so innocuous when > connected to religion or race (as you pointed out, this is better understood in Europe > for obvious reasons) and placed just a little bit outside of rarified cosmopolitan > intellectual circles. The problem is grouping all this together into a single generalisation. > If there is only one God, then he also made the Quakers and the Hindus and the > atheists, so why not just leave it at that and come off of our little pedestals and > cubicles, embrace one another, stop bickering or boasting about "Our" Shiny City on the > Hill or "Our" Chosen People. I think every one agrees that, if there is a deity who created people, that deity created all. However, each religion questions the perceptions of that deity (sometimes perceived in the plural) by others. Most, however, agree to co-exist in most cases. May I guess from your writing that you do not, yourself, believe in a deity, yet have the audacity to demand how those who do should believe and behave? As the saying goes, "If you don't play the game, you don't make the rules." > Why do you need to paint anybody who questions or criticizes your viewpoint as an > antisemite? That is a misperception. When you go back and actually read what was written, what I challenged was your statement calling the RJC series distateful specifically because of the actions of the current administration of Israel. Do you now deny saying that, or retract the statement? > > > I do believe in strict separation of State and Church. But Israel being a > > > religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one could > > > conveniantly perform the separation. > > > > Do you understand that not all Jews support the actions of the current > > Israeli government, and some do not even recognize the government, or > > even the existence of the state of Israel in the first place, as > > valid? > > > > To assume that every Jew agrees with every action of the government of > > Israel is precisely the same as assuming that every Christian (yes, > > including Russian Orthodox and Protestant) agrees with every action of > > the Vatican or that every Muslim agreed with every action of the > > Taliban. Or perhaps, for that matter, that every atheist agrees with > > every action of People's Republic of China. > > I find "radical atheists" narrow-minded, and the crimes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol > Pot would forever prevent me from claiming to be a "Radical Atheist". This, however, evades the point of the statement above. > However, Rumsfeld and W. do share your problem of not understanding why some people > find certain wordings unnecessarily provocative, like "Crusade", "Evil", "Zionist", > "Radical Jewish", etc. I understand why you find "Radical Jewish" "provocative": it is because of a simple misperception of Judaism. > > I think the problem is that you have, mistakenly and far too easily, mapped the > > statements and actions of people who happen to be in office at a given > > time onto the supposed thoughts of all those who ostensibly are in > > their jurisdiction. (And even in that, your perception of the > > jurisdiction of the Israeli government is phenomenally inaccurate.) > > > Do you agree with every statement and action of every official in France? If not, why > > do you assume this of others? > > When France collaborated with and covered up the genocide of the Tutsis in Rwanda > (1994), I did'nt go around waving a French flag. > Even less a Radical Hutu one. Then why do you refuse to understand that many Jews disagree with and protest the actions of the current Israeli administrations? And why do you refuse to recognize that the actions of that administration are not identical to Judaism? > > To quote Daniel Pearl, "I am a Jew. My mother and father are Jews." > > Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as "radical muslims". > That's just the problem I have with the self-definition as "radical", radicalism as a > whole, and religious or ethnic fervor in general. > You don't have to remind me that many religious or ethnic radicals are peace-loving. It > does'nt change the problematic connection. To change the "problematic connection", you must open your mind to the fact that the word "radical" has wider meanings than the single one that you impose upon it. > In fact, where are the mass demonstrations of Muslims against Osama Bin Laden, of Jews > against Sharon or the settlers, Catholics and Protestants against Irish terrorism and > for reconciliation? The smallest local soccer game gets more crowds than all of the > above in a decade. Do you understand that there are more effective ways of protesting than standing around in a street shouting? Are you capable of understanding the difference between activism and soccer? (Oh, right, you generalize them both into the rigid "Us vs. Them" paradigm.) > To imply that I would have expected you to apologize for something is to put me falsely > in the position of an oppressor which nothing I've written to you justifies. Reread your messages. > Your identification with Daniel Pearl during this discussion (what is that supposed to > make me?) confirms the impression that for you criticism and debate can only be > connected to martyrdom or not be. That is a truly odd viewpoint to inject into the discussion. > I have no problem saying that I respect your approach to culture, art and religion, and > in fact that I've learned some things from some of your answers. > I hope you've come to at least seeing how and why one can think like I (and several > others) do. I have seen what you think, and where it might come from, and, I hope, helped in debugging it. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:12:30 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: Coltrane Gold Collection Zach: That 'Love Supreme' pretty much has to be the radio broadcast of the performance from the Juan-Les-Pins Jazz Festival on July 26, 1965. I'm reasonably sure that's the only live 'Love Supreme' in wide circulation. It's been issued by numerous labels, and the sound quality is so good because it's from a radio broadcast. If it's performed by the classic Coltrane quartet, the "Spiritual" tacked on at the end is most likely from the Koncerthuset in Stockholm, Sweden, October 22, 1963. It's been issued widely by pirates and also officially by Pablo, and it actually appears to be the only time Coltrane played the tune live aside from the Village Vanguard sessions with the expanded band. (But I've learned through hard experience to never say never...) All data culled from David Wild's "Wildspace," at http://home.att.net/~dawild/. It's still the best resource out there for Coltrane discographical information. He doesn't list the disc you've got, but you know how these live things get copied over and over... (One note: when you look at this site, try to make sure you're using Microsoft Explorer [yecchh] - it doesn't look right in Netscape.) Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Stan Kenton, "Two Guitars," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:19:26 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: flag-waving and anti-heroes on 3/22/02 11:00 AM, duncan youngerman at y-man@wanadoo.fr wrote: > >> >> We're not holding up Elliot Carter or Sonny Rollins as the ambassadors of >> our best kind of thinking. We send out Garth Brooks. > > I don't know how to break the news, skip, but Garth Brooks is litterally > unknown > outside the US. > Country music in my experience is almost strictly an internal U.S.consumption > thing. > It's people such as Lou Reed, Mink DeVille or Tom Waits who are big > respectable > stuff in Europe (perenial sucker for "anti-heroes", preferably junkies and > dressed in black). > D. > I'm not referring to what the Europeans choose to consume. I'm talking about the cultural/consumer choices that Americans make. I could have used "John Wayne" as a similar icon, but this being a music list. Incidentally, if the French charts are to be believed, Neil Diamond and madonna are our chief cultural exports to that country. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:14:34 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: How Come? Hey! No fair! You promised that you were "done" with Zitt. ;-) Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Stan Kenton, "Blues in Asia Minor," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:22:57 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: RE: How Come? That was the encore. :0 >From: "Steve Smith" >Reply-To: >To: "'john schuller'" , > >CC: >Subject: RE: How Come? >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:14:34 -0500 > >Hey! No fair! You promised that you were "done" with Zitt. > >;-) > >Steve Smith >ssmith36@sprynet.com >NP - Stan Kenton, "Blues in Asia Minor," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:49:27 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: original non-remastered cd's, Was: Re: eno & remastering on 3/18/02 2:39 AM, Remco Takken at r.takken@planet.nl wrote: > On the 'old' Kind of Blue cd, there's almost no hiss, and the sound is > really warm. However, the de-noiser studio system was used so extensively, > that even Jimmy Cobb's brushes were removed from one track. I have no idea > if they were considered as 'hiss', or that this Dolby machine decided to > cancel that sound. With systems like Sonic Solutions, the way to cancel out noise relies largely on the system being able to recognize noise. Often, the engineer will run about three seconds of hiss from the source tape so the system can learn the undesirable sound, and the system recognizes that sound at that frequency as undesirable and as such cancels it. Unfortunately, drum brushes on a jazz ballad have really similar charactaristics as hiss. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:49:12 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= Subject: Fwd: Re: knocking on the floodgates k8 wrote: > any old Sonic Youth album Sorry, but ANY Sonic Youth album, I'd say, except for maybe A thousand Leaves. "Experimental Jet Set Trash and No Stars" is one of the most innovative rock albums I ever heard. And, like it or not, "NY Ghosts & Flowers" is one more step in SY's unstoppable evolution. Call me fanatic... ;-) Best, Efrén del Valle _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:09:17 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: Re: knocking on the floodgates In a message dated 03.22.02 11.49.17, efrendv@yahoo.es writes: >Sorry, but ANY Sonic Youth album, I'd say, except for >maybe A thousand Leaves. "Experimental Jet Set Trash >and No Stars" is one of the most innovative rock >albums I ever heard. And, like it or not, "NY Ghosts & >Flowers" is one more step in SY's unstoppable >evolution. i can dig on that. i was actually thinking directly of '...leaves' when i made the qualifier for not all sonic youth... and maybe 'dirty'... k - --- [.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.] k a t e p e t e r s o n c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:16:43 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: flag-waving On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:40:47AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > > I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American > > disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the > > And I think he has some good reason to believe that (80% of positive rating > and 95% who believe in god, right?). Uh, are you suggesting that someone believes that Rumsfeld==God? If not, what are you saying? > It is true that the polls do not claim > that Joseph Zitt is behind this administration, but you can excuse outsiders > (read: outside USA) to have some concerns when comparing the arrogant and > bully attitude of this admistration (which seems to equate good for America > with good for the rest of the world) with its amazingly high rating. But when you take more than a trivial look beyond the surface headlines, you will see a lot more dissent that you might expect. Note, for example, in the current scandal which, many hope, will bring down the current US admistration (which many believe was not appropriately elected anyway), only 17% of Americans believe that Bush et al are telling the whole truth about Enron. This is far from the image of monolithic dullards that some like to project as a stereotype. > If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and > open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction > in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who > are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy? "nitpicking"? "irrelevant"? "frivolous"? To what might these refer? I see no context in the current conversation. > The rest of the world hopes so. Ah, does this indicate a similar projection of monolithic-mindedness upon "the rest of the world" to the one that you project upon Americans? It would be consistent with the paradigm, I suppose... but a more than simplistic view of humanity will reveal a thriving diversity of opinion. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #843 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com