From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #851 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Sunday, March 24 2002 Volume 03 : Number 851 In this issue: - Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm? Re: toshimaru nakamura. Re: Nakamura Toshimaru (and Other Nakamura's seeking Vindication) Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL re: graham haynes/big gundown live? Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 re: graham haynes/big gundown live? Cd and Vinyl Pressing question Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics "...than a spoonfull of starmatter" Zappa Recommendations goddamn i'm dumb. (was: Re: toshimaru nakamura.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:00:29 +0100 From: "Verstraeten Stefan" Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 Totally second this opinion. Just check out the archives from some years ago... You had stuff like - -recent goodies (in wich brian and steve were great contributors; this subjects contained more and better reviews than in any other magazine) - -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the tone he is using now and recently) - -.... Yes, Joseph and others, don't start another discussion please.... I DO KNOW.. - -that I sound old-fashioned, - -that i don't realize that people change, - -that I live in the past, - -that i don't have an open mind, But fuck, this list has changed, and i regret this very hard... Stefan Verstraeten (a stupid person who better shuts his mouth) > From: "Iain Kitt" > Subject: Joseph and John > > Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are becoming > increasingly tiresome? Please carry on guys if you want to but can you not > do it off list? > > Iain - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:51:16 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics >From: skip Heller >Then I've got no morals whatsoever. You know how much work Shaq and Kobe >generate for how many people? These guys aren't basketball players -- >they're economies. If the start-up money for those economies is obscene >(and it is), then just imagine how many dollars go 'round to keep that >stuff >in business. Well, the only reason that these ball players can constitute economies is because we supply the attention. Take that away and give it somewhere else, like education or creative training, and make sports the leisure activity as it is and reward it accordingly, and we might see the jobs located somewhere else. Why does the guy who sells his endorsement get 20 million a year and the guy who makes the shoes get only 300 bucks? A lack of intelligent priorities. When I see MJ speaking up for the factory workers in Jakarta I'll feel better about him. > >But I think the leading lights in any entertainment endeavor -- music, >sports, sculpture -- are worth whatever it takes to have them (he said as >he >remembered what Dr J did for the local morale when he was growing up in >Philly). Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a greater service in your life? Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems? I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter. In which case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who trains in the latter? Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in life? My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching. Once again, misplaced priorities. We've learned to take our most basic education (and our educators) for granted. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 04:33:48 -0800 (PST) From: aaron chua Subject: RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm? this thread has actually made me pull out the 2 discs of his i have (both on kairos). Trios - trio recherche Musik fur drei Streicher - ensemble recherche one of the main reasons for picking up the trio disc fr me was the presence of teodoro anzellotti on one of the pieces which happens to be the one that struck me the most. the piece Am Horizont is fr violin , cello and accordeon. rather slow, meditative. quietly beautiful. the ensemble disc sounds fine to these ears though i don't claim to have very discerning tastes. i don't play this very often ( actually might have been the first time i listened to it all the way through tonight) but that may be more for reasons of my shortening attention span these days. i vaguely remember reading somewhere that morton feldman considered him one of the better new composers for whatever thats worth. rgrds aaron np Am Horizont - Rihm (funnily enough) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:52:17 -0500 From: Mathieu =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=E9langer?= Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura. Hello, >i just had to jump in here - i saw plaid with toshimaru nakamura last night >at the metro in chicago, and he actually blew plaid away, in my opinion. it >was physically painful at times, and made me have to go to the bathroom, but >it was intensely cool. and his visual aspect was intensely cool, too. Just curious... You saw Toshimaru Nakamura or Nobukazu Takemura? As far as I know, Nobukazu Takemura is opening for Plaid on this tour... But I could be wrong as this is based some sort of flyer I picked up. Not to mention that I have no real interest in Plaid or Takemura, but that's another story! Tschuss, Mathieu - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:06:43 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Hiznay Subject: Re: Nakamura Toshimaru (and Other Nakamura's seeking Vindication) k8, Wow, I'm going to have to call you on this one, you have your Nakamuras confused...I thought something was a little suspicious about your e-mail when I saw Nakamura Toshimaru in person attending an Otomo Yoshihide show in Tokyo tonight....so I did a little research on the Metro in Chicago, from what I can find on Google who you really saw was Dan "The Automator" Nakamura, which is really ironic vindication for a comment that I recently made as I told you the other day that the Dr Octogon CD was a dj Q-Bert thing, when Q-bert only appears on Blue Flowers.... when really most of the production was done by Dan "The Automator" Nakamura. mushmush __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:50:31 EST From: Nvinokur@aol.com Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL How about "no where to run" - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:03:35 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics on 3/24/02 1:51 AM, Bill Ashline at bashline@hotmail.com wrote: > Well, the only reason that these ball players can constitute economies is > because we supply the attention. Take that away and give it somewhere else, > like education or creative training, and make sports the leisure activity as > it is and reward it accordingly, and we might see the jobs located somewhere > else. Why does the guy who sells his endorsement get 20 million a year and > the guy who makes the shoes get only 300 bucks? A lack of intelligent > priorities. When I see MJ speaking up for the factory workers in Jakarta > I'll feel better about him. > Feel how you wish. The guy is a rare and fantastic athlete. At the same time, how many musicians are making a point to look into the union benefits package afforded the guys who press CD's? > Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a > greater service in your life? Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by > Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems? > I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter. In which > case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who > trains in the latter? Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't > recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in > life? My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately > compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching. Once > again, misplaced priorities. We've learned to take our most basic education > (and our educators) for granted. > I remember -- and learned deeply from -- guys like Henry Aaron, who presented such a sharp, clear picture of dignity and fair play to a lot of us at an early age that it was every bit as notable and miraculous as his home run crown. I thought then and think now he was a fantastic role model, especially in light of the racist bullshit he dealt with. Death threats from crackers who didn't want him to break a white man's record didn;t turn him into Al Sharpton. I always admired that (especially growing up in the Philadelphia run by Frank Rizzo). And I remember the teachers who gave me all the important tools. My high school music teacher is still one of my better friends. I never took those people for granted. With the many rancid excuses for teachers I had, the good and great ones were nothing less than beacons. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:06:58 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL on 3/24/02 8:50 AM, Nvinokur@aol.com at Nvinokur@aol.com wrote: > How about "no where to run" > > - > I was thinking "In My Room", or, for you Bill Evans fans, perhaps "The Two Lonely People" sh - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:36:56 -0800 From: Dave Trenkel Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live? At 8:01 AM +0000 3/24/2002, nors5379 wrote: >i am relatively new to graham haynes, but the knit factory >sent me 2 of his discs this past christmas when they had the >buy 3 get 2 free sale. one was opera zone with bill laswell, >and upon receiving i thought it was oging to be real lousy >album (first thought was... electronica opera?) but its a >really solid disc. something you can throw in for background >music and it sets the mood quite well. the other disc was >RPM, which i havent given much of a listen to but it does >have that drum and bass kind of vibe that was mentioned with >the group in seattle. Hayne's KF disc is actually called "BPM", and is, I think, one of the better jazz meets drum 'n bass discs. It starts out with a piece that layers a Wagner orchestral loop with Brazilian percussion, a combination that never fails to crack me up. Haynes has a couple of earlier discs that use electronics, that, while I don't think they're as successful as BPM, might be worth looking into, I liked parts of his "Tones for the 21st Century" quite a lot. Also, he appears on a lot of recent Laswell discs. - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Trenkel New and Improv Music http://www.newandimprov.com improv@peak.org - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:33:16 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:00:29AM +0100, Verstraeten Stefan wrote: > -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help > towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the > tone he is using now and recently) Hmm... since I hadn't heard Merzbow until a few months ago, I wonder what I might have said about his music in the past... :-) - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:51:53 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics > on 3/24/02 1:51 AM, Bill Ashline at bashline@hotmail.com wrote: > > >> Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a >> greater service in your life? Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by >> Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems? >> I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter. In which >> case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who >> trains in the latter? Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't >> recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in >> life? My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately >> compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching. Once >> again, misplaced priorities. We've learned to take our most basic education >> (and our educators) for granted. >> > Bill, the sad fact is that my courses are not broadcast around the world on TV, and nobody pays millions in ad time for those non-existent broadcasts. The day that starts happening, that's the day that my pay will come a little more in line with Iverson's. - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:40:12 +0100 From: "Verstraeten Stefan" Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 Hello, The reason you answered was because the merzbox contained some cds that were based on john cages cartridge music. You explained: - -what this music was - -where it came from - -how this could be recognised Anyway, it was a great help that i got from you and helped me on how to experience merbows music a lot better... But as said, the whole discussion had a different tone than we have these days... Ps Thanks for all the warm kind words off-line from a lot of zornlisters (some of them I remember years ago). It seems that a lot more people want the return of "the old zornlist".... but hey, who knows, one day.... Best wishes, Stefan Verstraeten Stefan.Verstraeten@belgacom.net - ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Zitt To: Verstraeten Stefan Cc: Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 > On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:00:29AM +0100, Verstraeten Stefan wrote: > > > -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help > > towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the > > tone he is using now and recently) > > Hmm... since I hadn't heard Merzbow until a few months ago, I wonder > what I might have said about his music in the past... :-) > > -- > | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | > | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | > | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | > | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | > | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:46:32 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live? >my other question is, is there any such thing as a LIVE big >gundown? i pulled out the disc earlier this week and was >absolutely blown away once again. i guess i just want to >hear how that would be pulled off if it was live. >-darryl. It was performed at BAM in 86 and in Europe in 88. The NYC show was very well done, 15-20 musicians. Milano Odea performed with 4 guitarists (Frith,Arto,Quine,Frisell) and Shelley Hirsh singing on Erotico were highlights for me. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:59:39 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Cd and Vinyl Pressing question Does anyone here have experience with getting CD's and/or Vinyl pressed? I am hoping for any help in the areas of "use these guys" or "avoid these guys". Thanks, John _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:11:34 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics >From: skip Heller At the same >time, how many musicians are making a point to look into the union benefits >package afforded the guys who press CD's? good point, skip. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:35:31 -0500 From: "Nirav Soni" Subject: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter" y'all, I've become kinda curious about some of the more metallic things a propos to this list via "Leng T'che" . What I seek is the slow, the cataclysmic, monstrously dense, epic (not so much the sword and sorcery styled epic, but the soul collapsing in on it self...the subjectively epic). Rocking is good, rocking with experiemental tendancies is even better. I've heard good things about Boris and Corrupted, but have yet to check either out. Can foaks give me some pointers with regard to those two, and anything else related? I'm familiar with Skullflower and Fushisusha, but I'm more in the market for the tortured and anguised than the psych-tinged. Cheers! Nirav - -- NP- Windsor for the Derby- Earnest Powers + (Emperor Jones) NR- _The Tin Drum_- Gunter Grass AIM: Icefactory37 "Duration is to the consciousness as light is to the eye" - Bill Viola - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:40:57 -0500 From: "Zachary Steiner" Subject: Zappa Recommendations I seem to remember a rather long thread on Zappa recommendations. I don't want to rehash it, but does any one know when this thread occurred so I can look it up in the archives? Thanks, Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:01 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: goddamn i'm dumb. (was: Re: toshimaru nakamura.) everyone everyone, i'm sorry. i am dumb and i was tired and the two add up to my faux pas on the japanese names... it was indeed nobukazu takemura. muchos apologies, sorry for my ignorance, blah blah. it doesn't change how awesome he was, though. he's dan the automator? now i'm REALLY confused. love, k8. sorry sorry - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #851 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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