From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #867 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, March 28 2002 Volume 03 : Number 867 In this issue: - Re: music defined (indeterminacy) Re: Zony Mash Returns Re: What is music? Re: music defined (indeterminacy) Re: music defined (indeterminacy) Re: music defined (indeterminacy) why is music needed? Re: music defined (indeterminacy) Re: music defined (indeterminacy) RE: why is music needed? Re: why is music needed? Re: why is music needed? Re: music defined (indeterminacy) Re: music defined (indeterminacy) Re: White trash ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:42:16 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:07:36 -0600 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:12:33PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > An another silly example, you can buy a video tape of a log burning in a > > fireplace. I don't call that a movie. > > What would it take to make it a movie? At least one change of camera > angle? Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:45:41 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: Zony Mash Returns

I cannot wait for all of my Zony Mash this weekend. It is a true blessing to live in Seattle.
JMS

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:20:56 -0800
From: "Toby Dodds" <toby@dodds.org>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash returns

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
To: <toby@dodds.org>; <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: Zony Mash returns

> Yes, what about Wayne Horvitz. What's he up to? He was always my least
> favorite Naked City member. Has he done any good stuff since? I like 4+1
> alot, but Zony Mash is horrible.

I'm too exhausted from seeing yet another fantastic Zony Mash concert last
night to comment.

"You're either with us or against us." :-T

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
- - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:52:17 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= Subject: Re: What is music? > Music: sounds qualified as improper for usage in > Musique Concrete. > > Color: visual illusion due to the limited spectral > resolution of > human beings. > > Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------- I know, the definition of music is something very abstract, but I think that any sound can be music, and separate the music and the no-music is something impossible.When the sound starts to be music? Someone says that is order the sound and silences, i think this is montage. Sorry, my english is very limited, but this is my opinion. Regards for everybody.Ric. _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:55:34 -0600 From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) skip Heller wrote: > >on 3/28/02 8:32 AM, s~Z at keithmar@msn.com wrote: > > > In the sciences, the experts > > are recognized as such, and the lay public has to work to develop > > the level of understanding required to grasp complicated concepts. > > In music, a trained and gifted composer deserves the same respect, > > and the same effort is required of the listener. If the listener > > is the final arbiter of what constitutes excellence, the composer > > will have to compose at a level beneath his or her talents and > > expertise to make sure the listener gets it. > >I disagree. the composer will, on the other hand, have to acknowedge that >maybe what he's doing is not for a big audience. Which is what scientists do. Note that this is basically the argument that Milton Babbitt made in the famous article that was provocatively titled by its copy editor (not by Babbitt) "Who Cares If You Listen?", that composers of "serious" music may be primarily writing for each other and others who have taken the time to learn the arcana, rather than a wider audience who often don't care about the distinctions being made by people working in the field. Bests, Herb - -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:13:19 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:55:34 -0600 Herb Levy wrote: > > Which is what scientists do. > > Note that this is basically the argument that Milton Babbitt made in > the famous article that was provocatively titled by its copy editor > (not by Babbitt) "Who Cares If You Listen?", that composers of > "serious" music may be primarily writing for each other and others > who have taken the time to learn the arcana, rather than a wider > audience who often don't care about the distinctions being made by > people working in the field. As long as they don't whine to get their paycheck paid by the masses, that's fine with me. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:31:35 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) on 3/28/02 2:18 PM, s~Z at keithmar@msn.com wrote: >>>> Bottom line -- in my heart of hearts, I enjoy it immensely, it > gives me > great satisfaction more often than not, the rewards outweight the > rewards > I'd find in any other line of work I know how to do. I don't > really > address the questions of art because I have enough on my plate > just trying > to get the music to sound good enough to satisfy my own taste.<<< > > And the artists I enjoy the most talk like this. When I look > over my CD and record collections, the one common denominator > I find to the varied music, is that the artists are putting their > inner muse > as a higher priority than audience reception. Don't get me wrong. I'm in business for the audience. If you pay your money, you deserve the best job I can give you. OTTH, don't bitch at me if you come in not knowing what service I'm providing. I'm not there to make people line dance. If I record something and put it out, I am indeed putting a premium on the notion that I want to communicate something. I don't know how I feel about the audience reaction per se, but I know I want to make an idea known. And I want it to be understood. > And as much as I > love > Bob Dylan, I'll take Tom Waits over Bobby any day. And as much > as I love Tom Waits, I'll take Beefheart over Tom any day. And as > much as I love Beefheart, I'll take Schwitters over the Captain > any day. > And the choice is not because of anything other than the pleasure > I > feel when I hear what they do. But, when I look at that common > denominator, I find that the music that brings me the most > pleasure > is the music that isn't being made to please me. > Your option. But I think it does matter to you that you're pleased by these people, and I'm pretty sure it matters to them that somebody's pleased and that they can pay their rent this way. sh - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:33:37 -0800 From: "gorilla thing" Subject: why is music needed? Curious to you thoughts on why music is needed in our lives or do we actually need it. I know that music, early on was used to communicate and still does but as I look at my stack of cd's sometime I wonder why it really is necessary to have them. As one person posted early, why can't the inspiration of sitting next to river suffice me all the time. I'm really not looking for answers of emotion: "because it makes me feel good" or "I work better when I have music on" but something a little deeper. For me, it seems its diffently used to transcend a point of understanding, as a metaphor is to an audience. I was curious since your our on the subject of 'what music is' I thought I'd also add why do you think we 'need' it. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:40:51 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) >Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:11:16 -0800 >From: skip Heller > >As for songwriters who place less emphasis on direct communication, Terry >Allen leaps to mind (and is fantastic if you haven't checked him out) I second this recommendation- Allen is indeed a great songwriter. (sorry, not very Zorn-ish content here). I would question that he's not direct though. What makes his work so powerful is that it's so damn un-subtle: compare that with his Lubbock buddies like Jimmie Dale Gilmore and Butch Hancock who do very powerful work indeed by focusing more on spiritual matters than on 'human' detail. Best, Jason Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:44:17 -0600 From: William Crump Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) The only Who show I ever saw was with Kenn(e)y Jones, so yeah, Dylan stands up pretty well against them.. Wm.C s~Z wrote: >>>>Yeah, erm, this doesn't ring true for me either. I saw Dylan's >>>> >show in >Tupelo a week before the Grammies and I felt he was as mindful of >the >audience as any concert performer I've ever seen before, even >though he >never spoke a word to the audience between songs.<<< > >But compared to The Who? > >Just asking. > > >- > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:58:13 -0500 From: "Zachary Steiner" Subject: RE: why is music needed? I've always found that music helps me transcend my current time and place and for a short while I'm in a place of euphoria that is rarely found in other pursuits (at least for me). The feeling of having a group of musicians (either when you are a part of it or observing it) completely gel, even if it is for song or a part of song, is one of the purest forms of communion between people. It is definitely spiritual in nature and you come from it with greater understanding about yourself and the world in general. Music to me is often like meditation, there is an altered state that you go into when you are experiencing truly great music that speaks to you. I've experienced this both as a player and as a listener. It is truly amazing. On the other hand, I like music because it has a good beat and you can dance to it... Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:15:21 EST From: User384726@aol.com Subject: Re: why is music needed? - --part1_d5.151c07c9.29d50c19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all. This isn't as much the answer as an observation but here it goes. Music has been around since the dawn of civilization and has played a role regardless of religion, sex, sexual orientation, crete, culture, etc... It has crossed every boundry possible (and some that were thought to be impossible). It can cause any kind of emotional reaction or none at all. It can be calming or naseuiating. Yet it doesn't perform either of the to basic needs that a species require (survival and procreation). (I know that musicians and singers, just kidding, use music as a means to an end for survival and use you're imagination for the latter but as a whole it is not need). Also Reeves Gabriels has made the argument that sound is vibrations and one's body is filled with viberating atoms. Cage may agree that we are music? And the rest of the animal kingdom can also be music (listen to the complex phrasing of whales or various birds perform Messian licks or a goose sound like Anthony Braxton's For Alto). And if rhythm is an integral part of music (time art) then motion and time in and of themselves are music. I can't honestly think of a way to not have music (except in death pending on what one's beliefs are). Peace to All and happy holidays Aaron Solomon - --part1_d5.151c07c9.29d50c19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all.
This isn't as much the answer as an observation but here it goes. Music has been around since the dawn of civilization and has played a role regardless of religion, sex, sexual orientation, crete, culture, etc... It has crossed every boundry possible (and some that were thought to be impossible). It can cause any kind of emotional reaction or none at all. It can be calming or naseuiating. Yet it doesn't perform either of the to basic needs that a species require (survival and procreation). (I know that musicians and singers, just kidding, use music as a means to an end for survival and use you're imagination for the latter but as a whole it is not need). Also Reeves Gabriels has made the argument that sound is vibrations and one's body is filled with viberating atoms. Cage may agree that we are music? And the rest of the animal kingdom can also be music (listen to the complex phrasing of whales or various birds perform Messian licks or a goose sound like Anthony Braxton's For Alto). And if rhythm is an integral part of music (time art) then motion and time in and of themselves are music. I can't honestly think of a way to not have music (except in death pending on what one's beliefs are).

Peace to All and happy holidays
Aaron Solomon - --part1_d5.151c07c9.29d50c19_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:23:59 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: why is music needed? because people need a way to blow off the steam and shake off the cobwebs. On a common sense level, music is likely counter-productive. It distracts you from other stuff, like making money (unless you get paid to listen to music), and tending to your chores. On the other hand, if all we had was work and chores, we'd all go postal. You need music and the other forms of similar creative entertainment to keep you sane. Of course, you might likely require different musics for different occasions. If you're trying to get over with a young lady, Teddy Pendergrass might be more conducive than, say, Tim Berne (unless you're really lucky). If you're trying to dream, something else entirely is in order (Debussy is a good one). Maybe you're trying to find out what people in other parts of the world are up to, be it Compton or Korea. Or maybe you're just bored and/or lonely and need something with which you can identify (and wasn't punk rock all about that?). Music provides all these services and then some. It can fire up your brain or help it to shut down for a while. No one set answer, except to say that time is like a wall -- if you don't decorate it with something, it's drab and is maddening to concentrate on, and human beings don't function their best in drab conditions. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:20:20 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 02:42:16PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:07:36 -0600 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:12:33PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > > > An another silly example, you can buy a video tape of a log burning in a > > > fireplace. I don't call that a movie. > > > > What would it take to make it a movie? At least one change of camera > > angle? > > Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to > transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition. "apply for artistic recognition"? Just what the arts need: more faceless bureaucracy. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:32:51 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy) On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:20:20 -0600 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > > > Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to > > transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition. > > "apply for artistic recognition"? Just what the arts need: more > faceless bureaucracy. Faceless bureaucracy or unconditional cheerleading, make your choice :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:38:05 From: "William York" Subject: Re: White trash I do not wish to provoke any sort of extended intellectual debate here, but a few quick things: Jim Goad's "The Redneck Manifesto" is an excellent, thought-provoking book that deals with the subject of "white trash." I would read that before making any type of sweeping comment about this complicated subject, whether you are from the U.S. or not. >White trash is a strictly American sociological thing, going back a >century at least. It just means lower class whites, often from the >South, >in close contact with blacks and therefore infused with much >black musical >culture. Actually, not necessarily in close contact with blacks, although in some cases, yes. >Most of Rock'n roll was invented by white trash=2E Elvis, Cochran, >Buddy >Holly, Everly bros=2E, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc=2E=2E >Artists as diverse as Johnny Winter, the Allman bros=2E, Springsteen, >Dr >John, Jaco Pastorius, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Ramones, Eminem have >white >trash roots. Also, Goad makes the point (and I agree after reading the entire book) that saying "white trash" over and over (assuming the person saying it isn't from that type of lower-class white background) could be compared to saying "niggers" or "kikes" over and over again. Not a great thing to say. >Some white trash might of course be racist or extreme rightist, but >probably a small minority. Middle and upper-class whites, Jews, blacks, Muslims, etc., can of course also be racist or politically extreme... WY _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #867 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? 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