From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #898 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, May 6 2002 Volume 03 : Number 898 In this issue: - Re: Pop Song Re: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta AW: satanism Re: Re: Pop Song alasnoaxis - splay Re: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta Re: AW: satanism Cicala Mvta + Han Bennink in Japan Re: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta Re: Cicala Mvta + Han Bennink in Japan Re: Cicala Mvta + Han Bennink in Japan Re: Pop Song Re: Pop Song Re: alasnoaxis - splay Re: Nicholas Collins re: satanism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:57:49 -0400 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: Pop Song Fascinating topic. Obviously, no final answers here (entire books have been written about this). As someone pointed out, a lot of the answers will depend on semantics. Usually, we think of 'pop' as 'popular music,' or music that tops the music charts. There's also the notion (put forward by Simon Frith among others) that popular music means 'music of the people'- the music that everyone knows well. This would include songs like "Happy Birthday" or "Auld Lang Syne." Robert Christgau also had an interesting take on this, christening some music as 'semi-popular.' This was music that was created with a pop sound (catchy melody, universal lyrics, etc.) but weren't very popular in the marketplace because of indie status or such. In my eyes, all of these things are 'pop.' One barometer used to be American Bandstand. That's where Dick Clark had teens rate records (some surely being paid off backstage) and give the famous line for a good record, "it's got a good beat and you can dance to it." Now we have MTV's Total Request Live to tell us what's "good music"... Best, Jason - -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:02:48 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Re: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta Hello, >BBC Radio 3's brilliant show Mixing It played the title track from 'Invoke' >a couple of weeks back and it was more of the same, although he tries hard >to put a different slant on it each time. What's the slant this time? >I checked out the Ruins Magabaitsu site the other day and Tatsuya Yoshida >was playing drums with Cicala Mvta somewhere in Tokyo - that I would like >to >see! No problem. They are going to tour Europe this summer, including Yoshida: 20.06. A-Wien, Szene 21.06. A-Wels, Schlachthof 23.06. NL-Rotterdam, Roots Open Air 25.06. CH-Zürich, Moods 28.06. DK-Roskilde, Festival 02.07. Halle, Objekt 5 03.07. Marburg, KFZ 04.07. Bremen, Schlachthof 06.07. Duisburg, Traumzeit-Festival "more dates to come" http://www.tropical-music.com/html/inhalt_e/tourdates.html Has anybody heard the new CD, "Deko Boko"? I heard one mp3 excerpt, which was very nice. But very unlike anything I have ever heard Yoshida do before, though! Cheers. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 17:16:50 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thorsten_Kr=E4mer?= Subject: AW: satanism Hello Arthur, thanks for your advice. >Read the sources, not the tabloids. Here's what I did. I picked any book by Aleister Crowley at amazon.com and googled for "Thelema", a term I figured essential from the reviews. At www.thelema.org there's that "Book Of The Law", where it says in the third chapter: "23. For perfume mix meal & honey & thick leavings of red wine: then oil of Abramelin and olive oil, and afterward soften & smooth down with rich fresh blood. 24. The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what. 25. This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. This hath also another use; let it be laid before me, and kept thick with perfumes of your orison: it shall become full of beetles as it were and creeping things sacred unto me. 26. These slay, naming your enemies; & they shall fall before you." So I guess this is only to be taken on a metaphorical level? >So your point is that people should not make artistic works about negative >subjects? Please..... No. My point is that people should not make artistic works about the negative effects of one "evil" ideology (nazism) and then a couple of years later make artistic works promoting another "evil" ideology (satanism) as some kind of campy avant-garde fun. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:40:51 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Re: Pop Song >Usually, we think of 'pop' as 'popular music,' >or music that tops the music charts. Which would also include music that's stylistically similar since most pop music isn't actually popular in terms of sales. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:43:16 -0700 (PDT) From: jason tors Subject: alasnoaxis - splay after all the hype two years ago with jim black's first album I am wondering if this second album lives up to the first one. Knowing these guys I would bet on it. hoping my copy is in the mail today np- PINK [this is what happens when I take my headphones off] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 00:37:51 +0900 From: Arthur Rother Subject: Re: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta > I checked out the Ruins Magabaitsu site the other day and Tatsuya > Yoshida was playing drums with Cicala Mvta somewhere in Tokyo - that I > would like to see! where is that site, i am in tokyo right now, so would like to find dates, arthur - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:48:11 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Re: AW: satanism Hello. >So I guess this is only to be taken on a metaphorical level? If you want to have a theological discussion about how Crowley relates to satanism, and whatever that term might mean, okay, but it's far of topic and not relevant. It's a good discussion, but lets save it for later or take it elsewhere. For the Zorn list, lets stick with the following: >then a couple of years >later make artistic works promoting another "evil" ideology (satanism) as >some kind of campy avant-garde fun. Do you think this is the way Zorn feels about his work? Cheers. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:52:50 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Cicala Mvta + Han Bennink in Japan Hello, >>I checked out the Ruins Magabaitsu site the other day and Tatsuya >>Yoshida was playing drums with Cicala Mvta somewhere in Tokyo - that I >>would like to see! > >where is that site, i am in tokyo right now, so would like to find dates, http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Kouen/9347/live.html And while you are there, for Gods sake don't miss Han Bennink playing with Japanese musicians!!!: http://www.japanimprov.com/japantour/bennink/schedule.html I figure the show with Seechi Yamamoto should be particularly cool. Please post reviews, if you manage to get to any of it....! Thanks! _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 16:03:27 +0000 From: "David Evans" Subject: Re: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta >>I checked out the Ruins Magabaitsu site the other day and Tatsuya >>Yoshida was playing drums with Cicala Mvta somewhere in Tokyo - that I >>would like to see! > >where is that site, i am in tokyo right now, so would like to find dates, > >arthur > Lucky you! The address is http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Kouen/9347/ruins.html Unfortunately, the gig's already been and gone. Sorry if I got your hopes up. I wouldn't know where else to look on the web. If your Japanese is up to it you could try www.japanimprov.com. And if you're really lucky you might find something in Pia or Tokyo Walker magazines. Gambatte ne Dave _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 01:13:58 +0900 From: Arthur Rother Subject: Re: Cicala Mvta + Han Bennink in Japan > http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Kouen/9347/live.html Mmh, that was in march . . . > And while you are there, for Gods sake don't miss Han Bennink playing > with Japanese musicians!!!: > > http://www.japanimprov.com/japantour/bennink/schedule.html already had an ad in my pocket of this one, but i am leaving on the 14th already, and the 13th i am invited for dinner by a woman who i met selling kimonos at an antiek market, can't say no. but if anybody likes to come, i am invited to play with two japanese improvisers at a gallery 'le deco' in shibuya area, starting at 19:30 arthur - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 01:17:41 +0900 From: Arthur Rother Subject: Re: Cicala Mvta + Han Bennink in Japan > but if anybody likes to come, i am invited to play with two japanese > improvisers at a gallery 'le deco' in shibuya area, starting at 19:30 sorry, it's the 11th of may > arthur - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:27:37 -0400 From: "Dave Smey" Subject: Re: Pop Song > > I don't understand what makes conventional song structure -- or a taste for > it -- old fashioned. It's like saying subways are old-fashioned. They're > certainly still a viable form of transportation and fullfill a vital role in > contemporary life. So do Merle Haggard, Dave Alvin, and a whole bunch of > people who write songs in the venerated sense. There's a difference between > time-honored and old fashioned. As Schoenberg said, there's still a lot of > new music to be written in C. Yes, that's true, but I would suspect that some of us (including myself) would filter out the elements in the top 40 that don't have trad melody & harmony. (Like almost all hip hop. Or the Macarena.) For instance, compare these two hits from last year -- Alicia Keyes, "Falling In & Out of Love" vs. Pink, "I'm Coming Out" or whatever it is called. (I'm mangling the titles and even AK's name but you probably know both tunes.) The Alicia Keyes doesn't seem to go that many places harmonically, but it does alternate regularly between I and V. That gives the melody some nice tension (since it tends to resist falling into the V harmony). It's a very trad tune that may have even passed as normal in 1978. So if your study on pop music encompasses some other bluesy R & B tunes with nice harmonic tension you'd zoom in on this song and say "see? this stuff is still relevant!" Because it is -- obviously people do respond to it, sometimes. The Pink tune (which I don't really know that well, I think I've just "absorbed" it out of the environment) doesn't seem to have any harmonic action, it's more of a hook & groove thang. You couldn't really present it with just a guitar or piano. (It would fatally dorkify it, like in that Saturday Night Live skit with Will Ferrell and Ana Gasteyer.) The Pink tune is obviously a successful pop song, too. (These observations are just off the top of my head -- I don't own the records and can't figure out where to stream them on the web. So they aren't guaranteed accurate.) To sum up, if your thesis is that "the same principles shape both the successful pop tunes of the past and the hits of the present," then that's going to steer your selection of tunes. You can find what you are looking for, but you may not be right. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:29:52 -0700 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: Pop Song on 5/6/02 9:27 AM, Dave Smey at dsmey@mindspring.com wrote: > Yes, that's true, but I would suspect that some of us (including myself) > would filter out the elements in the top 40 that don't have trad melody & > harmony. (Like almost all hip hop. Or the Macarena.) Where would something like "tennessee" by Arrested Development fall then? > For instance, compare these two hits from last year -- Alicia Keyes, > "Falling In & Out of Love" vs. Pink, "I'm Coming Out" or whatever it is > called. (I'm mangling the titles and even AK's name but you probably know > both tunes.) > > The Alicia Keyes doesn't seem to go that many places harmonically, but it > does alternate regularly between I and V. That gives the melody some nice > tension (since it tends to resist falling into the V harmony). It's a very > trad tune that may have even passed as normal in 1978. So if your study on > pop music encompasses some other bluesy R & B tunes with nice harmonic > tension you'd zoom in on this song and say "see? this stuff is still > relevant!" Because it is -- obviously people do respond to it, sometimes. R&B is still extremely song-oriented. Or are we just talking about white music? > The Pink tune (which I don't really know that well, I think I've just > "absorbed" it out of the environment) doesn't seem to have any harmonic > action, it's more of a hook & groove thang. You couldn't really present it > with just a guitar or piano. (It would fatally dorkify it, like in that > Saturday Night Live skit with Will Ferrell and Ana Gasteyer.) The Pink tune > is obviously a successful pop song, too. Oddly enough, the "just guitar" litmus test is exactly the one I fall into. Personally, I think the Pink tune is all icing and no cake, but that's possibly me being old fashioned. > To sum up, if your thesis is that "the same principles shape both the > successful pop tunes of the past and the hits of the present," then that's > going to steer your selection of tunes. You can find what you are looking > for, but you may not be right. > And you won't likely be wrong, either, as long as guitars and pianos don't run out of stuff to do. skip h NP: Jack Mudurian, Downloading The Repertiore - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 19:00:08 +0200 From: Tim Blechmann Subject: Re: alasnoaxis - splay jt> after all the hype two years ago with jim black's first album I am jt> wondering if this second album lives up to the first one. Knowing these jt> guys I would bet on it. it is definitely as good as the first one, although it is a bit different. there are much more electronic sounds, but the "alas no axis"-sound remains. imo one of the best contemporary jazz recordings of this year... and take a look at the artwork ... nice paintings... Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.net ICQ: 96771783 http://nyds-exp-discogs.covers.de/ - -- The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!" Jack Kerouac - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:01:56 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Nicholas Collins On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:32:57 +0000 "David Evans" wrote: > > I have a knackered old recording of a track by Nicholas Collins and the > Soldier String Quartet. I think the album it was off was called 'It was a > dark and stormy night' and the track was 'Broken Light no.1'. The quartet > are playing along to a skipping CD player - kind of Cartoon S&M meets Oval. > I guess the album has long since been deleted, but if anyone has any info > about it I'd love to know more. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** - IT WAS A DARK STORMY NIGHT: Nicolas Collins 3/ It Was A Dark And Stormy Night (Collins) 27:27 Recorded at Baby Monster Studios, New York City, February-May 1992 David Moss: voice; Nicolas Collins: voice, backwards electric guitar, elec- tronics; Robert Poss: electric guitar; Guy Klucevsek: accordion; Ben Neill: trumpet; Rob Bethea: trombone; Tom Cora: cello; Soldier String Quartet. 1992 - Trace Elements (USA), TE-1019CD (CD) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is one of my top favorite records. I have always been puzzled at the low response that that record produced. Collins succeeds in putting out fresh new music without being tedious or relying on the usual batch of tricks. The three compositions are totally different and I would have a hard time to say the one I like the least. Piece one, has some out-of-sync CD playing, showing that you can mess up CD players like turntables. Might not look as impressive these days, but the piece has aged very well, surely because it was more about music than proving a concept. Anyway, what stikes in that record is its musicality. Regardless what new technique he is using, there is music behind (read: it is highly premeditated and the new techniques are material, and not an end in themselves). Not to mention the fantastic lineup on the last piece. I am affraid that the record is out of print. Trace Elements has been silent for more than 5 years. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:19:15 EDT From: SonataPathetique@aol.com Subject: re: satanism >>>>I don't really understand why someone growing up in an >>Atheist family would embrace "satanism" in any sense. >>My family is religious but I'm an atheist. My reaction >>was not going against Cristianism by "supporting" the >>opposite, but just ignoring the existance of something >>"beyond our understanding". For me, satanism it's just >>another way of belief in something that's never been >>proved, just as bad or incoherent as any other >>religious cult. >>Zorn has always taken unexpected directions all >>through his career and this is probably just one more. >>I don't think this goes beyond a taste for Satanist >>aesthetics, just as happened with S/M during the NC >>period, IMHO. Anyway, it'll be good to open >>discussions as happened with the Zionist or Japanese >>girls issues. I never said I followed any satanic beliefs and I always knew that the bands that were playing the music were atheist or agnostic as well. That is why I identified with them. I don't know how it was where you grew up, but where I grew up, christianity was impossible to simply ignore especially at the age of 10. There were several kids that weren't allowed to "play" with me because I was atheist. I constantly heard that I was going to hell since I was 5. I would constantly have grown adults criticizing my beliefs but finally I was able to say "Great!!! I want to go to hell. Hell is cool!" The look of shock on people's faces provided me with some of the best entertainment of my life. Today it would have no value because I am an adult, but when they heard these things coming out of my mouth at 10, they were shocked but I think more than they were shocked, they had a sense of fear. But I was able to laugh and that's what was most important. Even still to this day, satanic music makes me feel great as a weapon against religion. I rarely listen to death metal anymore but I live across the street from a big church and whenever too many people are standing in front of my house before or after a mass, I love blasting some "evil" sounding music. It clears them everytime and the look of disgust they have makes my day. Some people may feel this is childish but it makes me feel good and I love it. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #898 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com