From: jmandin@ndc.co.il Subject: Bloodcount Date: 01 Jan 1997 17:54:25 +0200 I share Steve Smiths's enthusiasm for Bloodcount; pt. of the dispute, I think, might stem from the fact that their 3 CDs date from 1994 and the band has matured a lot since then. The new CD set( should probably sound more like their recent live sets. On "Brown dog meets the spaceman" from Lowlife there are segments of tight ensemble playing that sound really good, as well as themes that depart and suddenly come back. They've honed all that down a lot: more structured pieces, generally; the transitions from improvising to composed pts. are amazingly executed(showing how well they know the music); Berne's compositions and solos span a remarkable range of moods and textures. There's really a lot to listen to: on "Mr. Johnson's Blues", Berne takes the initial ensemble riff into a solo, and gradually twists it from an upbeat melody into something sullen, and then into a gravelly textured sound; On "Snow White", the slowly developed sax theme is strikingly punctuated by booming bass chords by Formanek. I came to avant-jazz from indie-rock, and I find Bloodcount's current stuff as fascinating as I found Husker Du's Zen Arcade 10 yrs. ago. Also, there's a good interview w/ Berne in the KnitZine at the KF site. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Newgarden Subject: forwarded Date: 01 Jan 1997 20:13:35 -0500 (EST) Forwarded info on L.A.screening of feature-length documentary with Bar Kokhba soundtrack. I received much more detailed info if anyone is interested... hny, dn ===================================== Film portrait of legendary Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal will be screened on January 18-20, and January 25-26, 1997 at 10 a.m. matinee at SUNSET 5, West-Hollwood, 8000 Sunset Blvd., Tel.: (310) 848-3505, (213) 848-3500. Filmmakers JOHANNA HEER and WERNER SCHMIEDEL will be present for discussion on January 18 and January 19. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Torsten Nielsen Subject: More Derek Bailey jungle... Date: 02 Jan 1997 12:40:45 +0100 (MET) Did anybody go see the Derek Bailey jungle concert at the Knitting Factory Dec. 15? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Torsten Nielsen Subject: Eugene Chadbourne Date: 02 Jan 1997 15:56:39 +0100 (MET) Where's some good places to mailorder Eugene Chadbourne cds, tapes etc? Alot of his records are very hard to find... If you like "Book Of Heads" you should try to get some of Eugenes own stuff. I only have a few of his cds, but it looks like his solo record "Strings" is a good place to start. It's great stuff, anyhow. Lots of wild guitar and banjo and you can hear him do some of the stuff Ribot does on "Book Of Heads". Check it out... Jonas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alain et Louis Potvin Subject: Bloodcount 3 CD's set? Date: 03 Jan 1997 01:52:55 -0500 i read this info on the Newsgroup rec.music.bluenote A 3 CD's set of live shows of Bloodcount is release on Berne's Label, Scewgun. The 3 CD's set is a limited edition of 2000 copies and is available only by mail order. To order it send $32 (37$ overseas) US found payable to Screwgun Records: The screwgun Building 104 St. Marks Ave. Brooklyn, NY 11217 Bloodcount UNWOUND disc one: : "We're only here for the food" (Live in Berlin) disc two : "An Avarage Daze" (Live in Berlin) disc three: " The Fan" (Live in Ann Arbor) Someone have more info/or a review of it? Alain Potvin Qu=E9bec, Canada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "s.lucas" Subject: Re: John Oswald Date: 03 Jan 1997 15:20:43 +0100 This Oswald Naked City track is called 'Z'. It is all of 0.14 seconds long and features '47 edits of 35 sound slices, each between 1/20 and 1 second long.' Quote from page 98 of 'Unfiled' (ReR/Recommended Sourcebook 0401) which has many articles on sampling including on Oswald and Negativland and a CD with said track. The CD that came with the book is ReR 0401. simon lucas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.Ross" Subject: blood duster Date: 03 Jan 1997 11:35:04 -0600 (CST) has anyone ever heard of the band: Blood Duster. I stumbled across them on some web site. All I know about them is that they are an australian Gore band who got their name from a Naked City song. A review of them said they sounded something like a mix between Naked city and slayer or something...They have songs with titles like Fisting the dead...Sex with rotting corpses....etc... If anyone has heard of them I would love to hear any reviews about their music... J- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Arto Lindsay Date: 03 Jan 1997 17:27:46 -0500 (EST) > > My impression concerning the KF one was that it would be a follow up > of AGGREGATES 1-26. > > Patrice. I couldn't find Aggregates 1-26 on the KF homepage last time i looked. From the one track i've heard it sounds like it would be a cool little album. I'm completely ingnorant of Lindsay's stuff except for what i've heard on John Zorn records and a couple of early lounge lizards things. Where to start, o ye more learned than i? Any albums which stand out as being the voice of genius? -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Arto Lindsay Date: 03 Jan 1997 15:16:27 -0800 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:27:46 -0500 (EST) "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" wrote: > > > > > My impression concerning the KF one was that it would be a follow up > > of AGGREGATES 1-26. > > > > Patrice. > > I couldn't find Aggregates 1-26 on the KF homepage last time i looked. > >From the one track i've heard it sounds like it would be a cool little > album. I'm completely ingnorant of Lindsay's stuff except for what i've > heard on John Zorn records and a couple of early lounge lizards things. > > Where to start, o ye more learned than i? Any albums which stand out as > being the voice of genius? Besides AGGREGATES 1-16, you should check: 010 - THE LOUNGE LIZARDS ???? - EG Records, EEGCD 8 (CD) 014 - THE GOLDEN PALOMINOS ???? - Celluloid/OAO, CELCD 5002 (CD) 020 - ENVY: Arto Lindsay/Ambitious Lovers 1996 - Virgin (UK), CDOVD469 (CD) 090 - LAST LIVE AT CBGB: DNA 1993 - Avant (Japan), Avant 006 (CD) DNA was his trio in the late '70s. Nobody knew how to play an instrument but the urgency of the result is astounding. Although listed last, this is the earlier stuff with Arto easily available (with Ikue Mori on drums). Arto is often used as a percussionist: to add some color (I would even prefer to say: to add some spices, and hot ones!). But what color! As illustrated by his role in the first lineup of the Louge Lizards. He is the one who makes the record a no-jazz record, even though most of the tracks are jazz or jazz alike pieces. I am sure that many people thought that the music would be better without Arto, or even thought that Arto was just a gimmick to annoy jazz audiences. Anyway, I doubt that I would play this record as often as I do if Arto was not there. The first Golden Palominos is still a record whose importance has not faded. What Arto does with his skronk also works with his voice. You could write at length about its imperfection, but you never stopped of being astonished by the efficiency of the result. I like a lot the Ambitious Lovers, and specially the first one (which is also the most experimental of the three). ENVY is a great intro to Arto (and Peter Scherer, let's not forget him!): the mellow, the aggressive, the experimental, all his multiple facets are there. He even wrote one of the most amazing song to me: Too Many Mansions. Virgin had the great idea to reissue it (but why did they screw up the colors of the sleeve...). The last trick has to be listened at very high volume: Locus Coruleus. Also, highly recommended is the killer piece on the second Golden Palominos: Only One Party! To finish, Arto is the link between the experimental NY scene and the rock scene (great influence on Zorn and Moss). Arto is not a composer, he is not a skilled guitar player, he has not even a great voice. Then how can he manage to be so interesting and so exciting ? This is a mystery. It might show that what is more needed in music, before technical skills, is something to say. And Arto has a lot to say. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Arto Lindsay Date: 03 Jan 1997 15:19:08 -0800 At 05:27 PM 1/3/97 -0500, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote: >I couldn't find Aggregates 1-26 on the KF homepage last time i looked. >From the one track i've heard it sounds like it would be a cool little >album. I'm completely ingnorant of Lindsay's stuff except for what i've >heard on John Zorn records and a couple of early lounge lizards things. > >Where to start, o ye more learned than i? Any albums which stand out as >being the voice of genius? Check out _Pretty Ugly_, with Peter Scherer, my favorite of his non-singing albums (although he does sing on one track.) A lot of electronic experimentation, and Scherer's percussion is great. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Arto Lindsay Date: 03 Jan 1997 15:43:51 -0800 On Fri, 03 Jan 1997 15:19:08 -0800 Jeff Spirer wrote: > > At 05:27 PM 1/3/97 -0500, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote: > > >I couldn't find Aggregates 1-26 on the KF homepage last time i looked. > >From the one track i've heard it sounds like it would be a cool little > >album. I'm completely ingnorant of Lindsay's stuff except for what i've > >heard on John Zorn records and a couple of early lounge lizards things. > > > >Where to start, o ye more learned than i? Any albums which stand out as > >being the voice of genius? > > Check out _Pretty Ugly_, with Peter Scherer, my favorite of his non-singing > albums (although he does sing on one track.) A lot of electronic > experimentation, and Scherer's percussion is great. I second that one also. Sophisticated music for a ballet and another great music from the Arto-Peter collaboration (PRETTY UGLY reminds me sometimes of ESPERANTO by Ryuichi Sakamoto, on which Arto plays also). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: a rancid amoeba Subject: Re: blood duster Date: 03 Jan 1997 20:54:25 -0800 (PST) > > has anyone ever heard of the band: Blood Duster. I stumbled across > them on some web site. All I know about them is that they are an > australian Gore band who got their name from a Naked City song. A > review of them said they sounded something like a mix between Naked > city and slayer or something...They have songs with titles like > Fisting the dead...Sex with rotting corpses....etc... > If anyone has heard of them I would love to hear any reviews > about their music... > Excellent stuff. Along the lines of Exit 13 and Anal Cunt. Short intense grind tracks with lots of samples usually of the porn variety. The coolest thing about their CD, though, is that there's a hidden track before track one (start the first track then push the backwards search button). chanel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy) Subject: Re: John Oswald, not (exactly) blood duster Date: 04 Jan 1997 10:40:57 -0800 >The coolest thing about their CD, though, is that there's a hidden >track before track one (start the first track then push the backwards >search button). & that, in a nutshell, since his name came up on the list a couple of days ago, is how to find the "hidden" track on John Oswald's GrayFolded, as well. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Arto Lindsay Date: 05 Jan 1997 23:35:00 -0500 (EST) > Where to start, o ye more learned than i? Any albums which stand out as > being the voice of genius? I'd add to the other fine recommendations Kip Hanrahan's first album, _Coup de Tete_. To my ears this is the best example of Lindsay's work as extra spice in someone else's musical stew. His banging and scraping here is really rhythmically sophisticated. This raises a question in my mind about how unskilled (to paraphrase Patrice) Lindsay really is. Yeah, I know he doesn't know any chords, and couldn't possibly play guitar like any normal guitarist. But he's so good (and has gotten better over the years) at playing like himself that I'd assumed that he, well, practices. Could it be that he simply chose to approach the guitar as a new, found instrument and has actually achieved a high degree of virtuosity in the approcah he's invented? Or is he just an intuitively brilliant flailer? Speculation/inside information would be welcome. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mool@sirius.com (Allan Horrocks) Subject: commercial blurb re: Derek Bailey jungle cd Date: 07 Jan 1997 20:53:51 -0800 Normally I restrict my postings to Ruins-related irrelevancies, but today I thought I'd let any interested listmember know that if you're still looking for that very-hard-to-find because-it-was-never-imported-by-Sphere who-normally- import-Avant-CDs Derek Bailey "Guitar, Drums and Bass" cd on Avant, I know where you can get it: Namely, Aquarius Records, the store where I work (I know, this is shameless...), and we do mailorder. We managed to get some copies of that, and also the equally scarce James Plotkin Avant album, recently, direct from Japan. And there's a few of the Bailey left, I think four of them. As a result of us having to get them from Japan, though, they aren't cheap, let me warn you. They'll cost you $32 dollars plus postage ($2 first class, $3 priority - heck if you're spending $32 on a CD, might as well get it priority mail, eh). If anyone's interested, you can email the store at Or call 415-647-2272. Or, if you live in or near or want to visit San Francisco, stop by 1055 Valencia St. (between 21st and 22nd in the Mission) - though I'm sure all SF Zornlistmembers are regular customers, right? ahem. Also, as a further caveat to potential emptors (?), the word is that the Bailey as well as other Avant titles will be getting a new distributor in the States perhaps sometime this Spring...which means that if you wait several months, you can get it for cheaper, supposedly. But if you can't go another day without hearing what Derek Bailey and DJ Ninj sound like togther, feel free to get in touch w/Aquarius. Thanks - I hope this is helpful to someone - bye, Allan PS - having now heard the disc in question, my feeling is that those who like Derek Bailey will dig it more than jungle fans, perhaps not surprisingly. Especially if you like the kind of playing Bailey did on that Tzadik CD with Ruins (there I go), or, if you were enamored of the programming Ninj did on the Buckethead "Day of the Robot" cd, you'll find the Avant album interesting and possibly quite enjoyable. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Allan Horrocks::::::::::::::::::::: :::::: :: ::: ::: :::::::mool@sirius.com::::::::::::::::: :::::: :: ::: ::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::: :: ::: :: ::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::: H ::: ::O ::: E ::::"Zessenmorri cossin gissowii/:::::: :::::: :: ::: :: ::: ::::::::::::Mekkei mossa meccunna":::::::::: :::::: :: ::: ::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::--Ruins::::::: :::::::::::::::::magazine:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"Negotiation"::: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: commercial blurb re: Derek Bailey jungle cd Date: 07 Jan 1997 21:34:59 -0800 At 08:53 PM 1/7/97 -0800, Allan Horrocks wrote: >Also, as a further caveat to potential emptors (?), the word is that the >Bailey as well as other Avant titles will be getting a new distributor in >the States perhaps sometime this Spring...which means that if you wait >several months, you can get it for cheaper, supposedly. I heard the same thing also regarding Avant distribution, from someone that talks regularly to Zorn about the business side of things. Hopefully it is true. Speaking of bad distribution, anyone looking for the Laswell CD - Tetragramaton: _Submerge_ - on the West Coast can get it from Groovesmith in Palo Alto, 415-FAT-LINE, grvsmth@best.com, and yes they do mail order. It is also available from Downtown Music Gallery in NYC, dmg@panix.com, and yes they do mail order too. This CD should be widely available by mid-January, but both of these sources have good prices, i.e., you won't have to emptor your caveat, or even take a leak, if you buy it from these sources. For those unaware of the CD, it includes two extended horn tracks by Material, one with Byard Lancaster and one with Graham Haynes, over trip hop and Indian stuff with electronic (including jungle/dnb) beats and Bill's bass, and three tracks of trip-hop-py stuff. Highly recommended. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: landocal@mail.utexas.edu (LP Thorpe) Subject: James Plotkin Date: 08 Jan 1997 00:56:53 -0500 Hello all, Allan Horrocks wrote: >We managed to get some copies of that, and also the equally scarce James >Plotkin Avant album, recently, direct from Japan. Does anyone have an opinion on this album, or Old, or anything else Plotkin has done (even death metal :))? I happen to like the skewed pop of Old, and I heard his solo A Strange, Perplexing on the Indiscreet label, but found 3/4 of it rather, um, repetitive (wince). Any info would be appreciated, old news, new news, other albums to buy, whatever. Thanks in advance, LP Thorpe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Bramy Subject: Ruins/Blood Duster questions Date: 08 Jan 1997 01:02:22 -0800 Excuse my ignorance (or lack of attention) but...Ruins...describe. Who, what, when, where, how.. (no discography neccesary). And, how do we get ahold of this Blood Duster CD? ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." Andre Gide ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Kick Media Todd & Camarie Bramy http://www.oz.net/~tbramy Seattle, Wa tbramy@oz.net ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fenechd@charon.stm.com (David FENECH) Subject: Some Eugene Chadbourne stuff ... Date: 08 Jan 1997 10:17:59 +0100 > From: Torsten Nielsen > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:56:39 +0100 (MET) > Subject: Eugene Chadbourne > > Where's some good places to mailorder Eugene Chadbourne cds, tapes etc? > Alot of his records are very hard to find... > If you like "Book Of Heads" you should try to get some of Eugenes own stuff. > I only have a few of his cds, but it looks like his solo record "Strings" is > a good place to start. It's great stuff, anyhow. Lots of wild guitar and > banjo and you can hear him do some of the stuff Ribot does on "Book Of > Heads". Check it out... > > Jonas > You can find a LP of Eugene Chadbourne (& his family and friends) on a French new label called Rectangle. The record is called "The aquaduct" and has been mostly recorded near the aquaduct called "le pont du Gard" which is an antique roman bridge over the Gard, somewhere in the Southern French countryside... The label is located at : RECTANGLE c/o Quentin Rollet 15, rue Montcalm 75018 PARIS (France) You can also contact Eugene at his own address, if you want one of his many many tapes : Eugene Chadbourne 707 Longview Street Greensboro N.C. 27403 - U S A I recommend his work with a guy called Frank Pahl (form the band ONLY A MOTHER), and his duos with Derek Bailey. There is also an excellent record with the "Violent Femmes" members, but I think I lost my tape ... so I can't say more about it. And of course, the famous J.Z plays on some of his records ... bye ===================================== David FENECH, musician , one man band (Please Send tapes and mail art to :) 2, rue Claude Debussy 38100 Grenoble - France ===================================== E - Mail : fenechd@stm.com ===================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andy Chang" Subject: How do you pronounce "Tzadik"? Date: 08 Jan 1997 03:50:18 +0000 Hi all, Well, the subject line says it all. The question occured to me when I was at a record store asking for stuff on the label. Thankya kindly! andy The feel-good hit of the season !?! SuperDeFormedACTIONCITY !?! http://www.prairienet.org/~mothra/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gastarit@comm.net Subject: Re: James Plotkin Date: 08 Jan 1997 06:39:55 -0600 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, landocal@mail.utexas.edu (LP Thorpe) wrote: >Hello all, > >Allan Horrocks wrote: > >>We managed to get some copies of that, and also the equally scarce James >>Plotkin Avant album, recently, direct from Japan. > >Does anyone have an opinion on this album, or Old, or anything else Plotkin >has done (even death metal :))? > >I happen to like the skewed pop of Old, and I heard his solo A Strange, >Perplexing on the Indiscreet label, but found 3/4 of it rather, um, >repetitive (wince). > >Any info would be appreciated, old news, new news, other albums to buy, >whatever. > >Thanks in advance, > >LP Thorpe > > > >Check out his recent ambient adventure with Mick Harris called "Collapse" ! It's similar to Laswell/Harris' "Sominific Flux". Anyway, it's loaded with digital loops, plenty of effects but most of all it's sublime and well executed.. glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M.Ho" Subject: duck baker Date: 08 Jan 1997 10:01:43 EST I know we've talked about Duck Baker earlier sometime but has anyone found his latest album out on Avant? Can someone give me a review? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: Blood Duster Date: 08 Jan 1997 10:16:00 PST Blood Duster is an interesting band, but I'm not too sure how many Zorn fans would be into it. They have an album and an E.P. out, which were both released together in the U.S. on Relapse Records called "Yeest". The album has about 40 songs on it and is I think about 35 minutes long (I'm at work right now, so I don't have the info, I can give you more info on it if you're interested. The sound is kind of Naked City-ish, but more grindcore/death metal sounding. A lot of cool Entombed and early Napalm Death-like riffs. They also use a lot of sound bites from Horror movies and who knows where else. I personally think the album is fantastic, but I guess if you're into old Napalm Death and some of the current grind-groovecore bands then you'll want to check it out, if not, you might want to stay away from it. I write for a music zine called New Rock Review and reviewed it in the last issue, if anyone wants me to forward them the review on this album, let me know. I have it at home, so I can't just put it in this message. Hope this helps. Matt Walsh mattw@smginc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: commercial blurb re: Derek Bailey jungle cd Date: 08 Jan 1997 08:23:42 -0800 On Tue, 07 Jan 1997 21:34:59 -0800 Jeff Spirer wrote: > > At 08:53 PM 1/7/97 -0800, Allan Horrocks wrote: > > >Also, as a further caveat to potential emptors (?), the word is that the > >Bailey as well as other Avant titles will be getting a new distributor in > >the States perhaps sometime this Spring...which means that if you wait > >several months, you can get it for cheaper, supposedly. > > I heard the same thing also regarding Avant distribution, from someone that > talks regularly to Zorn about the business side of things. Hopefully it is > true. Yep! Koch will distribute Avant. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Some Eugene Chadbourne stuff ... Date: 08 Jan 1997 08:34:29 -0800 On Wed, 8 Jan 97 10:17:59 +0100 David FENECH wrote: > > I recommend his work with a guy called Frank Pahl (form the band ONLY A MOTHER), and > his duos with Derek Bailey. There is also an excellent record with the "Violent Femmes" > members, but I think I lost my tape ... so I can't say more about it. > > And of course, the famous J.Z plays on some of his records ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And the opposite is also true (n'est-ce pas ?) :-). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: commercial blurb re: Derek Bailey jungle cd Date: 08 Jan 1997 11:13:43 -0700 you can also get all of the recent titles featuring derek bailey, incus and otherwise from incus records directly. the price is $20. they listed the dnb disc in their last mailing as available. Incus 14 Downs Road London E5 8DS England -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Painkiller CD Date: 08 Jan 1997 17:39:24 -0500 (EST) Greetings all! I'd like some help with something. I've been trying to get the Japanese 3CD version of the following: 160 - EXECUTION GROUND: Pain Killer Disc 1: 1/ Parish Of Tama (Ossuary Dub) 16:05 2/ Morning Of Balachaturdasi 14:45 3/ Pashupatinath 13:47 Disc 2: Ambient 4/ Pashupatinath 20:00 5/ Parish Of Tama 19:19 Recorded in June 1994 at Greenpoint Studio, Brooklyn, New York John Zorn: alto, vocals; Bill Laswell: basses, samples; Mick Harris: drums, samples, vocals. 1994 - Subharmonic (USA), SD 7008-2 (2xCD) 1995 - Subharmonic (USA), #1708 (2xCD) 1995 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88731/3 (3xCD) Note: the #1708 is a limited edition of 500 total: 250 being packaged in a marble box, and 250 in a metal box; both box designs are by artist Rockit. Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live concert called: LIVE IN OSAKA; following is its description: *** - LIVE IN OSAKA: Pain Killer 1/ GANDHAMADANA 13:00 2/ VAIDURYA 9:00 3/ SATAPITAKA 11:00 4/ BODKYITHANGGA 13:00 5/ John and Eye duo encore 5a/ Black Bile 1:45 5b/ Yellow Bile 0:58 5c/ Crimson Bile 1:46 5d/ Ivory Bile 1:26 Recorded in November 1994 by Oz Fritz Regular Pain Killer lineup plus Yamatsuka Eye on (4,5). My local shop claims this is unavailable. Does anyone know for certain? Or, I'd be perfectly happy with a used copy if there's one out there somewhere. Any help will be greatly appreciated. And also, in an effort to contribute something here that's not really related.... I've just stumbled onto an Italian CD called Harmonia Meets Zappa, which is Italian MASO CD 90067, released in 1994. This is Zappa compositions done by a chamber orchestra, and is the most wonderful interpretation of his material I have ever heard. If Frank had been inclined to write like Charles Ives, this is what he would sound like. Everyone I've played it for has been completely delighted, struggling for words to describe it. If you want any more details, please feel free to email me. I haven't been this thrilled with something musical in a long, long time. Hope to hear from you soon, and thanks for any help. Sincerely, Dale. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Painkiller CD Date: 08 Jan 1997 15:11:43 -0800 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:39:24 -0500 (EST) TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all! > > I'd like some help with something. I've been trying to get the Japanese 3CD > version of the following: > > 160 - EXECUTION GROUND: Pain Killer > Disc 1: > 1/ Parish Of Tama (Ossuary Dub) 16:05 2/ Morning Of Balachaturdasi 14:45 > 3/ Pashupatinath 13:47 > Disc 2: Ambient > 4/ Pashupatinath 20:00 5/ Parish Of Tama 19:19 > Recorded in June 1994 at Greenpoint Studio, Brooklyn, New York > John Zorn: alto, vocals; Bill Laswell: basses, samples; Mick Harris: drums, > > samples, vocals. > 1994 - Subharmonic (USA), SD 7008-2 (2xCD) > 1995 - Subharmonic (USA), #1708 (2xCD) > 1995 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88731/3 (3xCD) > Note: the #1708 is a limited edition of 500 total: 250 being packaged in a > marble box, and 250 in a metal box; both box designs are by artist Rockit. > Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live concert > called: LIVE IN OSAKA; following is its description: > *** - LIVE IN OSAKA: Pain Killer > 1/ GANDHAMADANA 13:00 2/ VAIDURYA 9:00 3/ SATAPITAKA 11:00 > 4/ BODKYITHANGGA 13:00 5/ John and Eye duo encore 5a/ Black Bile 1:45 > 5b/ Yellow Bile 0:58 5c/ Crimson Bile 1:46 > 5d/ Ivory Bile 1:26 > Recorded in November 1994 by Oz Fritz > Regular Pain Killer lineup plus Yamatsuka Eye on (4,5). > > My local shop claims this is unavailable. Does anyone know for certain? Or, > I'd be perfectly happy with a used copy if there's one out there somewhere. > Any help will be greatly appreciated. Tzadik has plans to reissue this 3xCD set. No idea when. I got my copy from Ear-Rational; you might double check with them (e-mail: ear@xmission.com). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: mysterious silence on Harras Date: 08 Jan 1997 21:30:23 -0500 (EST) Ordinarily I take whatever comes on a CD, but in this case I have to ask. On the third cut of my copy of Harras, which is about 35 minutes long, there is a silence of about five minutes or so 25 minutes in, which drops out *very* suddenly, but which comes back quietly as if it were intentional. Is it intentional? or did I get a defective copy? None of the reviews I've seen of this album mention this silence, and I thought this was recorded live. -- Caleb T. Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com ;; Protect your environment, save Mother Earth... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: mysterious silence on Harras Date: 08 Jan 1997 18:51:40 -0800 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:30:23 -0500 (EST) Caleb Deupree wrote: > > Ordinarily I take whatever comes on a CD, but in this case I have to ask. > On the third cut of my copy of Harras, which is about 35 minutes long, there > is a silence of about five minutes or so 25 minutes in, which drops out > *very* suddenly, but which comes back quietly as if it were intentional. Is > it intentional? or did I get a defective copy? None of the reviews I've > seen of this album mention this silence, and I thought this was recorded live. 187 - HARRAS: Derek Bailey, John Zorn, William Parker 1/ Morning Harras 10:19 2/ Noon Harras 8:59 3/ Evening Harras 36:01 Recorded by James McLean live at the Knitting Factory, New York City Produced by John Zorn and Derek Bailey Derek Bailey: guitar; John Zorn: alto; William Parker: bass. 1995 - Avant (Japan), Avan 056 (CD) Note: the silence on the track #3 has the following explanation: "According to Derek Bailey, the abrupt cutoff was planned. Derek wanted to end it "on a high". The Bailey solo material appended after the silence was apparently Zorn's idea." (thanks to Peter Stubley/Lynn Rardin) Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy) Subject: Re: How do you pronounce "Tzadik"? Date: 08 Jan 1997 09:29:45 -0800 >Hi all, > >Well, the subject line says it all. The question occured to me when >I was at a record store asking for stuff on the label. > >Thankya kindly! > TZ as in "glitzy" A as in "bad" DIK as in "deek" It means holy man in Hebrew Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anders.fransson@hoe.se (Anders Fransson) Subject: Mc Hellshit Date: 09 Jan 1997 08:31:14 +0200 Hi out there! I have got a 3"cd with Mc Hellshit & Dj Carhouse alias Yamatsuka Eye and Otomo Yoshihide, label: Blast first. Eye on screming and Yoshihide on turntables, tape et. It=B4s a live performance at a place called Discobay or Disobay??? Does anybody know more about it? I have heard about a cd with Zorn where the cover is made from marble or= steel, I think I read it in Patrice Roussels discography. Where can i get a copy? Does anybody know if Zorn will tour in Europe in 97? Anders. - Anders Fransson, Biblioteket H=F6gskolan i =D6rebro, 701 82 =D6REBRO e-post: anders.fransson@hoe.se Tel +46 19 303866 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Geert.Buelens" Subject: Re: Zorn in Europe in 97 Date: 09 Jan 1997 10:22:14 +0100 (MET) On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Anders Fransson wrote: > Hi out there! > > Does anybody know if Zorn will tour in Europe in 97? I read an announcement for a Masada-concert in Brussels (April, if I remember correctly) Geert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hywel davies Subject: cohen cd Date: 09 Jan 1997 11:45:37 -0800 any info. on the new greg cohen cd 'way low' diw918 ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jan-Wen Lu Subject: Upcoming Zorn show in Taipei Date: 09 Jan 1997 20:26:59 +0800 Zorn will perform in Taipei on Jan. 22, in a new pub--"Opium Den". With Ikue Mori and Mike Patton. A highly anticipated show!! Jan-Wen, Taipei, Taiwan -- Jan-Wen Lu E-Mail address: janwenlu@asiaonline.net.tw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gastarit@comm.net Subject: Re: Upcoming Zorn show in Taipei Date: 09 Jan 1997 06:42:29 -0600 On Thu, 09 Jan 1997, Jan-Wen Lu wrote: >Zorn will perform in Taipei on Jan. 22, in a new pub--"Opium Den". With Ikue >Mori and Mike Patton. A highly anticipated show!! > > >Jan-Wen, Taipei, Taiwan >-- >Jan-Wen Lu E-Mail address: janwenlu@asiaonline.net.tw > > Will be picking up the "Anthony Coleman Trio" cd today. Tower is having their annual clearance sale, which helps. Anyway, its Coleman, BAron and Greg Cohen. Of course, it's on Tzadik... glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Newgarden Date: 09 Jan 1997 07:51:14 -0500 (EST) Another forwarded commercial for another screening of the film The Art Of Remembrance, with Bar Kokhba soundtrack: January 13, 7 p.m. Detroit Institute of Arts Detroit Film Theatre 5200 Woodward Detroit, MI 48202 (313) 833-7939 Another infomercial: Sunday, Jan. 12, 3pm at Carnegie Hall, NYC Zorn's 'Aporias - Requia for Piano and Orchestra' performed by Stephen Drury and the American Composers Orchestra conducted by Dennis Russell Davies. Also on the bill is Stephen Mackey's "Deal" featuring Joey Baron and Bill Frisell, and Roger Sessions' "Symphony No. 2" . Nosebleed seats start at $9 - good sound but not very comfortable, good seats are pretty $teep. A public service announcement - Joe Maneri w/ Mat Maneri & Joe Morris(?) at Knit Fact small room this Saturday nite. And you might also enjoy the March '97 line of Tzadik releases: Zorn Filmworks III Naked City Blackbox (Torture Garden & Leng Tch'e) Film Series: Fred Frith Film Series: Elliot Sharp Film Series: Marc Ribot Composer Series: Bun-Ching Lam Radical Jewish Culture: John Schott Radical Jewish Culture: Roy Nathanson & Anthony Coleman New Japan: Compostela Avant CDs will be widely available in the states starting March 18, at ~$20 retail. 4 back catalog and/or new releases will magically appear each month, starting with: Derek Bailey / DJ Ninj Dim Sum Clip Job Duck Baker plays Herbie Nichols Smarnamisa!: Resia Valley Music We now return to our regular programming... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: acapps@usit.net (Ashley Capps) Subject: Re: cohen cd Date: 09 Jan 1997 09:14:57 -0500 >any info. on the new greg cohen cd 'way low' diw918 ? Got it. And love it. Though it may not appeal to those who are strictly interested in the avant-garde. Two Ellington gems from the 1930s are wonderfully arranged and peformed, along with a piano trio performance of Bud Powell's "So Sorry, Please" and 6 Cohen originals which are nicely varied. Dave Douglas on trumpet, Joel Hellany on trombone, Scott Robinson on reeds, Ted Rosenthal on piano, and Tony Denicola on drums, with appearances on two tracks by Kenny Wolleson on percussion and Romero Lubambo on guitar. I really can't say enough about this disc - it's just wonderful. I've played it over and over. Ashley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: acapps@usit.net (Ashley Capps) Subject: Re: duck baker Date: 09 Jan 1997 09:24:36 -0500 >I know we've talked about Duck Baker earlier sometime but has anyone found >his latest album out on Avant? Can someone give me a review? This is yet another disc that I find myself playing over and over. I don't have time to give a real review. Only to say: It's terrific, yet another insight into the extraordinary musical world of Herbie Nichols. Very creative arrangements with Baker playing extrordinarily well and taking several interesting approaches to the tunes. Hearing these tunes played on acoustic guitars and Baker's style of playing relates the music to American folk traditions in an interesting and exciting way. There's a touch of samba on occasion. And so much more. It's very creative, and sure to give you hours of listening pleasure. Ashley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: shane@edu.advantage.com (Furvent Moil) Subject: Zorn in Vancouver Date: 09 Jan 1997 07:43:50 -0800 Does anybody know if John Zorn has ever performed in Vancouver, Canada and/or whether or not any plans have been made *to* perform in Vancouver in any degree of the future? - Furvent Moil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC)" Subject: Re: James Plotkin Date: 09 Jan 1997 15:51:05 GMT On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, landocal@mail.utexas.edu (LP Thorpe) wrote: >Does anyone have an opinion on this album, or Old, or anything else Plotkin >has done (even death metal :))? Aha, i never knew plotkin was in old. I've got an album he did with kk null (can't remember title). Think "ambient guitar noise" and you've got it - plenty of effects, certainly repetitive but quite interesting. (I think there's even a beat on one of the tracks!) Has anyone heard "The joy of disease" which i think features plotkin, mick harris, nicholas collins and someone else (treicher?). I'd be interested to hear a review. alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Mc Hellshit Date: 09 Jan 1997 08:14:37 -0800 On Thu, 09 Jan 1997 08:31:14 +0200 Anders Fransson wrote: > > I have got a 3"cd with Mc Hellshit & Dj Carhouse alias Yamatsuka Eye and > Otomo Yoshihide, label: Blast first. Eye on screming and Yoshihide on > turntables, tape et. It=B4s a live performance at a place called Discobay or > Disobay??? Does anybody know more about it? Nothing except that there is a second record of this duo: 065 - LIVE!! DJ Carhouse & MC Hellshit 1/ Join The Hellshit Army 2/ I Don't Like Ho-Hey 3/ Dead Sky Walker 4/ Cold Brain 5/ Ufo Made Me Do It 6/ Hard Core Copy 7/ Muthafuck Mitsubishi 8/ Air Rappers 1996 - Japan Overseas (Japan), JO96-24 (CD) > I have heard about a cd with Zorn where the cover is made from marble or= > steel, > I think I read it in Patrice Roussels discography. Where can i get a copy? EXECUTION GROUND (Pain Killer) is available in four designs: 1994 - Subharmonic (USA), SD 7008-2 (2xCD) 1995 - Subharmonic (USA), #1708 (2xCD) 1995 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88731/3 (3xCD) 1996 - Tzadik (USA), TZ ???? (3xCD) Note: the #1708 is a limited edition of 500 total: 250 being packaged in a marble box, and 250 in a metal box; both box designs are by artist Rockit. Note: the Tzadik reissue is not released yet. Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live concert called: LIVE IN OSAKA; following is its description: I was lucky to find the marble one but I have never seen the metal one (but I think I will survive ;-). Also, a fifth pressing is planned by Tzadik. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Upcoming Zorn show in Taipei Date: 09 Jan 1997 08:38:01 -0800 On Thu, 09 Jan 97 06:42:29 -0600 gastarit@comm.net wrote: > > > > On Thu, 09 Jan 1997, Jan-Wen Lu wrote: > >Zorn will perform in Taipei on Jan. 22, in a new pub--"Opium Den". With Ikue > >Mori and Mike Patton. A highly anticipated show!! > > > > > >Jan-Wen, Taipei, Taiwan > >-- > >Jan-Wen Lu E-Mail address: janwenlu@asiaonline.net.tw > > > > > Will be picking up the "Anthony Coleman Trio" cd today. Tower is having their > annual clearance sale, which helps. Anyway, its Coleman, BAron and Greg Cohen. > Of course, it's on Tzadik... It is an excellent record. The first time that you can really hear Coleman playing in a jazz vein, without electronics or fancy keyboards. But if you are expecting some crazy stuff, you will be disappointed. I enjoy this record as much as WHOSE BRIDGE by Mengelberg (another great trio record). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M.Ho" Subject: Re: duck baker Date: 09 Jan 1997 11:40:16 EST I'm not familiar with Herbie Nichols. Can anyone elaborate? > > >I know we've talked about Duck Baker earlier sometime but has anyone found > >his latest album out on Avant? Can someone give me a review? > > This is yet another disc that I find myself playing over and over. I don't > have time to give a real review. Only to say: It's terrific, yet another > insight into the extraordinary musical world of Herbie Nichols. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: James Plotkin Date: 09 Jan 1997 08:47:18 -0800 On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:51:05 GMT "Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC)" wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, landocal@mail.utexas.edu (LP Thorpe) wrote: > >Does anyone have an opinion on this album, or Old, or anything else Plotkin > >has done (even death metal :))? > > Aha, i never knew plotkin was in old. I've got an album he did with kk null > (can't remember title). Think "ambient guitar noise" and you've got it - > plenty of effects, certainly repetitive but quite interesting. (I think there's > even a beat on one of the tracks!) > > Has anyone heard "The joy of disease" which i think features plotkin, mick > harris, nicholas collins and someone else (treicher?). I'd be interested to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Great! Anything with Collins triggers my curiosity. Never realized that Collins was on this record. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier Subject: Zorn in Europe 1997 Date: 09 Jan 1997 19:16:40 +0100 Hi, I 've already my ticket for Masada in Paris, le hot brass the 8th of April 97. BTW: yesterday, I saw Marc Ducret with Latin for travellers (boby previte) Frith will be here next saturday at "son d'hiver" Joey Baron 's down will be here in February at "banlieue bleue" Guys, do you ever have my e-mail about the gig of Tom Cora's roof in Paris with Phil Minton? I think the list lost it, what do you think about it? Do you hear about an openning of the knittinf factory in London next spring? Olivier ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) Subject: Zorn, Patton, Mori in SF Date: 09 Jan 1997 10:44:48 -0800 (PST) Jan-Wen Lu, demi-God and Icon sez: > >Zorn will perform in Taipei on Jan. 22, in a new pub--"Opium Den". With Ikue >Mori and Mike Patton. A highly anticipated show!! That same trio is performing on Jan. 17th in San Francisco at Slimes...uh, I mean, Slims. I'm heading home to the Bay Area just to see this show...can't wait myself. mike rizzi - temporarily in Seattle this month "Another nerd with a soulpatch" -=home=- http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/ ------ browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 --------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Mc Hellshit Date: 09 Jan 1997 16:14:51 -0500 (EST) On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Anders Fransson wrote: > I have got a 3"cd with Mc Hellshit & Dj Carhouse alias Yamatsuka Eye and > Otomo Yoshihide, label: Blast first. Eye on screming and Yoshihide on > turntables, tape et. It=B4s a live performance at a place called Discobay= or > Disobay??? Does anybody know more about it? Well, I don't know anything about that record, but I'd bet the performance was at Disobey, a London-based club with ties to the Blast First label IIRC. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: duck baker Date: 09 Jan 1997 13:29:59 -0700 M.Ho wrote: > > I'm not familiar with Herbie Nichols. Can anyone elaborate? > Herbie Nichols was a terrific post-bop pianist and composer who lived & died in relative obscurity, recording only 3-4 records worth of material. His reputation has been posthumously raised nearer to its proper place-- due in great part to the next generation of jazz musicians who have praised and often paid tribute to his work. Among these are Steve Lacy, Roswell Rudd and even John Zorn (there was a terrific tribute to Nichols organized by clarinetist Ben Goldberg that featured JZ). The Blue Note Nichols sessions are essential listening-- I believe some or all of this stuff has been reissued on CD. -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: N Vassiliou Date: 09 Jan 1997 23:46:18 GMT Hi all. I was wondering if there are any news of a new Mr. Bungle or Mike Patton release in the near future. It's been a long time since Disco Volante... On a different note, has anybody heard the Sonic Youth/Yamantanka Eye collaboration 12''? I think it is called TV shit, but for some reason the liner notes refer to one of Stockhausen's pieces...Have they covered the piece (or parts of it, anyway) or is it just a joke? Thanks Nick V. York,UK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Mc Hellshit Date: 09 Jan 1997 20:12:46 -0500 >I have got a 3"cd with Mc Hellshit & Dj Carhouse alias Yamatsuka Eye and >Otomo Yoshihide, label: Blast first. Eye on screming and Yoshihide on >turntables, tape et. Itīs a live performance at a place called Discobay or >Disobay??? Does anybody know more about it? Well, the following probably doesn't help much since you already own the CD, but the following is a short review I posted to the difficult-l & nm-list sometime last year: DJ Carhouse/MC Hellshit -- Live CD3 on Blast First This is a recording of Otomo Yoshihide (DJ Carhouse) & Yamatsuka/Yamantaka Eye (MC Hellshit) live in '95 at Club Disobey in London. The disc clocks in at around 19 minutes, with 9 tracks showing up on the CD, but 12 listed on the sleeve. This is amazing stuff ... Basically it consists of Otomo using his extensive turntable wizardry to manipulate and destroy records of every genre (jazz, reggae, world, metal, noise ... even God's "Anatomy of Addiction") while Eye adds his trademark (a la "Nani Nani", Naked City or Painkiller) screaming, mumbling, babbling & shrieking to the mix. A brilliant set of live tracks, regardless of how many there really are. Pretty much unlike anything else ... Highly Recommended!! Club Disobey is an excellent live club in North London. Bruce Gilbert (of Wire fame) DJs there as DJ Beekeeper. There are a number of live CDs (the above is one) on Blast First, most of which are limited, that were specially recorded at Disobey & are available directly from Mute records in the UK. Artists have included: Merzbow, Keiji Haino, Earth, Charles Gayle, Blue Humans etc. -Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: James Plotkin Date: 09 Jan 1997 20:13:14 -0500 >On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:51:05 GMT "Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC)" wrote: >> >> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, landocal@mail.utexas.edu (LP Thorpe) wrote: >> >Does anyone have an opinion on this album, or Old, or anything else Plotkin >> >has done (even death metal :))? >> >> Aha, i never knew plotkin was in old. I've got an album he did with kk null >> (can't remember title). Think "ambient guitar noise" and you've got it - >> plenty of effects, certainly repetitive but quite interesting. (I think >> there's even a beat on one of the tracks!) >> >> Has anyone heard "The joy of disease" which i think features plotkin, mick >> harris, nicholas collins and someone else (treicher?). I'd be >>interested to >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ **************** Patrice wrote: >Great! Anything with Collins triggers my curiosity. Never realized that Collins >was on this record. * Correction: Ruth Collins is on this record, not Nicholas Collins. She is the vocalist on 4 tracks on this record (see below) and is from England. Franz Treichler, frontman for the legendary Swiss band The Young Gods, is also featured. * James Plotkin - "The Joy Of Disease" CD (1996) Avant (Avan 028) 1. Casual Murder 2. Hung On A Line 3. Red Plateau 4. Fuzzy 5. Yes. Well, No. 6. Bloodslide 7. Euphoria Passing 8. Polar Shift 9. Disease As A Child James Plotkin: guitar (synthesized, looped, bowed), bass guitar, rhythms, samples Franz Treichler: ominous guitar loop (track 2), samples (track 8) Mick Harris: drifting gate (track 8), atmosphere & cymbals (track 4) Ruth Collins: words & voice (tracks 1, 2, 7, 9) A piece from a quick description that I recently sent to a friend: ... Excellent stuff, makes me think it's the direction Plotkin wants to take OLD in for their next release on Relapse ... a female vocalist being a possiblity for this. Rhythm programming, bass & guitar work being a mesh between his solo styles (a la "A Strange, Perplexing") and the electronics on the last two Old records (specifically "Formula"). Mick does Lull-type atmosphere & cymbals on 2 tracks, and Franz does some guitar loops & samples on a couple tracks ... -Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John N. Sellekaers" Subject: Re: Zorn in Europe in 97 Date: 10 Jan 1997 02:48:22 +0100 >> Hi out there! >> >> Does anybody know if Zorn will tour in Europe in 97? > >I read an announcement for a Masada-concert in Brussels (April, if I >remember correctly) > >Geert Yep, that's right: 10 April, at l'Ancienne Belgique (Brussels)... John N. Sellekaers http://www.link.be/xinguhill Xingu Hill, Urawa, Torsion, Ambre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dennis summers Subject: Masada 8 Date: 09 Jan 1997 21:40 WET Ok, I know that I missed Masada #4 (forever) by not sending in the spine wrappers. And I recall someone here saying that they thought that the same thing was going to be done for 8. Well I'm sitting on those wrappers now... can someone tell me exactly what to do with them? I'm counting on you guys, I don't want to miss it again! thanx --dennis ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: Herbie Nichols Date: 09 Jan 1997 22:04:47 -0500 M.Ho wrote: > > I'm not familiar with Herbie Nichols. Can anyone elaborate? > > > > > >I know we've talked about Duck Baker earlier sometime but has anyone found > > >his latest album out on Avant? Can someone give me a review? > > > > This is yet another disc that I find myself playing over and over. I don't > > have time to give a real review. Only to say: It's terrific, yet another > > insight into the extraordinary musical world of Herbie Nichols. > > > > Hello All Herbie Nichols recorded five sessions for Blue Note from May 6, 1955 to April 19, 1956. These are now recognized as classics, though it is just a small portion of his work. Most went unrecorded. He did only one other session under his own name - Bethlehem Records 1957. The Blue Note sessions feature Art Blakey or Max Roach on drums, Al McKibbon or Teddy Kotick on bass. There is a CD of the 1957 session and a Blue Note compilation. However, Mosaic released all issued titles in a 3CD set a few years ago but it is no longer available. There is only one word for it: GREAT. I consider it, along with perhaps Ellington's Fargo, ND, concert, the greatest collection of jazz ever. Just one man's opinion. Anyway, the closest thing to HN is probably Monk. I get the feeling that these are sketches for larger works, that the man had much more to say, but his life was cut very short. There are some fine interpretations of some of his tunes. The Dave Douglas CD on HatArt has "The Gig." Steve Lacy as done some interesting though overly serious things. An ICP/Misha Mengelberg CD has a large ensemble doing a set of HN. But, the best way to hear him is his own stuff. His playing is totally unique. HN wrote poetry, and his keyboard seems to transform the song titles into complete stories. Titles like "House Party Starting" "Cro-Magnon Nights" "Blue Chopsticks" match perfectly with the music. It's a lot of fun. Beull Neidlinger has a unique CD on his own label that is a string trio plus sax blue grass sort of interpretation of HN. Herbie was pretty much ignored while alive, but his great music lives on. Get some. Alan E Kayser ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Dowtown Music Gallery anniversary Date: 09 Jan 1997 23:19:15 -0500 (EST) I was just wondering if anyone went to the DMG last Friday for their 5 1/2 year anniversary show. It was supposedly five hours long, and featured some great people, including JZ. (I'm still wondering where they fit everybody..) If anyone went , please let me know what went on. IOUaLive1@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jan-Wen Lu Subject: Re: Date: 10 Jan 1997 22:48:38 +0800 N Vassiliou wrote: > I was wondering if there are any news of a new Mr. Bungle or Mike Patton release in the near future. It's been a long time > since Disco Volante... On a different note, has anybody heard the Sonic Youth/Yamantanka Eye collaboration 12''? I think > it is called TV shit, but for some reason the liner notes refer to one of Stockhausen's pieces...Have they covered the piece > (or parts of it, anyway) or is it just a joke? A new project--Secret Chiefs Trio, with three members of Mr. Bungle, Trevor Dunn, Danny Heifetz, and Trey Spruance. Their first CD "First Grand Constitution and Bylaws" was released by Amarillo in December '96. They use bass, drums, trombone, percussion, sample, tape electronics, synths, and vocal to create very interesting music. As great as Mr. Bungle though Patton didn't involve. Concerning the TV shit EP, I think it was just a joke. Since the "song" of it is a cover song of an early D.C. punk band(I forgot their name, sorry). But I do love the sream of Eye on this one. -- Jan-Wen Lu E-Mail address: janwenlu@asiaonline.net.tw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Masada 8 Date: 10 Jan 1997 08:27:54 -0800 On Thu, 9 Jan 97 21:40 WET dennis summers wrote: > > Ok, I know that I missed Masada #4 (forever) by not sending in the spine > wrappers. And I recall someone here saying that they thought that the same > thing was going to be done for 8. Well I'm sitting on those wrappers now... > can someone tell me exactly what to do with them? I'm counting on you guys, > I don't want to miss it again! People running Avant/Tzadik told me that this trick would not be used again. This does not prevent me from keeping the spine wrappers :-). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Zorn in Vancouver Date: 10 Jan 1997 16:12:35 -0500 (EST) > > Does anybody know if John Zorn has ever performed in Vancouver, > Canada and/or whether or not any plans have been made *to* perform in > Vancouver in any degree of the future? I've been told that john zorn is never going to come to canada again, i think due to harrasment by our moral watchdogs at the border (gr). -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Torsten Nielsen Subject: Mori/Zorn/Patton Date: 11 Jan 1997 16:24:26 +0100 (MET) Just wondering what stuff the Mori/Zorn/Patton plays... Is it composed or improvised...? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Torsten Nielsen Subject: Derek Bailey + The Ruins Date: 11 Jan 1997 22:13:12 +0100 (MET) I just read that Derek Bailey will "probably" be playing two concerts with The Ruins in England in a few months. I thought that Masuda had left... Is there a new bass player? Jonas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: landocal@mail.utexas.edu (LP Thorpe) Subject: Re: James Plotkin Date: 11 Jan 1997 16:59:03 -0500 Patrick Carey wrote: > ... Excellent stuff, makes me think it's the direction Plotkin wants to >take OLD in for their next release on Relapse ... Any idea when the Relapse release is coming out? Maybe Plotkin got tired of the lack of support from Earache. For anyone interested, I'd check out "Formula" on Earache. It is pop-based music, I'd call it sort of progressive though (and don't imagine Yes). Check out the segues on "last look". Ignore the jump-cut on "thug". LP Thorpe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dennis summers Subject: Zorn a fake? Date: 11 Jan 1997 18:05 WET I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out. yours in Zornosity --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: choltby@cln.etc.bc.ca (Holtby) Subject: Anthony Coleman Trio Date: 11 Jan 1997 15:07:27 -0800 (PST) I'm a digest subscriber, and I may have missed some of the discussion, but someone mentioned that the Coleman trio is on the same exalted level as Misha Mengelberg's "Who's Bridge". Can this be true? Are his tunes as tuneful and the playing as much fun? Someone on rec.music.bluenote revealed that Mengelberg,Jones amd Baron had recorded a follow-up trio session. I presume that this will be coming out on Avant, and wonder if anyone is in the loop. Thanks, Doug Holtby choltby@cln.etc.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 11 Jan 1997 19:34:17 -0500 dennis summers wrote: > > I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting > conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience > that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these > guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes > poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems > pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this > obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read > seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that > share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that > opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out. > > yours in Zornosity --ds > ***Quantum Dance Works*** > ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** The same cries of "fake" are familiar to those who have been around for a while. Back when Ornette Coleman released his first few Atlantic LPs, he was also called a fake, couldn't play or compose. He was put down by most musicians, like Miles Davis, and hated by the critics. Today he is a living legend. Same sort of stuff was said about Monk, Charlie Parker, and even Beethoven. LvB was totally misunderstood in his lifetime. I don't mean to imply that JZ is on the same level. What is a fake, anyway? JZ has fans, people buy his stuff. To call him a fake is absurd. Small minds... Alan E Kayser aek1@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Derek Bailey + The Ruins Date: 11 Jan 1997 17:56:56 -0800 (PST) On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Torsten Nielsen wrote: > I thought that Masuda had left... Is there a new bass player? apparently, yes. but don't know who it is. hasta. --dk Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: silver whale Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 12 Jan 1997 14:50:20 +0200 (GMT+0200) On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, dennis summers wrote: > Are there "educated" listeners out there, that > share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that > opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out. Well, I certainly can't claim myself as 'educated' listener - the more you find out about music of anything, the more you become aware how little you actually know... or can know - but I have studied music 'full-time' for 6 years now so I may qualify - whatever I like it or not :) - as 'educated' listener. Most, if not all, 'pioneers' are considered by some as 'fake'. Somebody already pointed out O.Coleman as a fine example of this. Also, considering the Zorn's peculiar attitude towards media and his fans - what I enjoy for its entertainment value :) - I'm sure he doesn't want to anything to make him less 'fake'. More likely he likes to engourage (? propably spelled wrong) the media for these kind of reactions. Well, I don't know, and propably it doesn't matter anyway... :) Funnily, I once read a T.Moore interview where he expressed his liking of Naked City's jump-cut music, but complained it being a little 'academic'. So that zorn should be more 'punky' (if 'punky' = untrained, unacademic, unstudied) Well, you can't please 'em all... teemu OnNow: demo of Giant Robot Sound System (a band I'm mixing at the moment, and no, it has no relation whatsoever to Buckethead :) ------------- e-mail: tkorpipa@siba.fi "There was coffee. Life would go on." Ruumen homepage: William Gibson:'The Winter Market' http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 12 Jan 1997 13:48:26 -0400 My thoughts - This topic centers around subjective criteria of what's good and what is fake. I certainly don't have to make the ontological argument for art on a list about John Zorn. :) As someone asked, what is a fake anyway? Well, what ISN'T a fake? Aesthetics is a touchy subject, and finding value in any particular art form is often a subjective matter. I wonder if the same people who said Zorn is a fake would say that Schoenberg or Ives were fakes (if they even know who Schoenberg and Ives were, outside of reading the liner notes in a Naked City album). As far as academic, objective evidence to the fact that Zorn is credible as a musician and composer (in our day and age, at least), suffice it to say that I don't think Kronos Quartet goes around commissioning works from fakes - they certainly don't have that much free time. Or that phenomenal players like Dave Douglas, Bill Frisell, or Joey Baron even associate with Zorn. Furthermore, after reading Stephen Drury's published article and part-critical-analysis in (v32, no1, "A View from the Piano Bench or Playing John Zorn's Carny for Fun and Profit"), I would dare say Zorn knows exactly what he's doing when he composes non-improvised music, and that he has an good (if ironic) sense of musicality when it comes to his writing. To say John Zorn is a bad player isn't saying much either. Miles Davis had a far from perfect tone in terms of trumpet technique, but that's what made him Miles Davis. Sesto Bruscantini is one of the most heralded basso buffo actors in the history of opera, and he had a comparitively sub-standard technique as well. Saying someone is simply a "bad player" is not looking at all the parameters of good musicianship. In the end, it's all what you like. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s university of maryland http://www.butterfly.net/mozart school of music | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier Subject: Frith / Sclavis / Drouet in Paris Date: 12 Jan 1997 22:26:02 +0100 Last Saturday : I saw a creation by : * Frith: guitar and several objects that can make sounds * Sclavis: clarinet and sax * Drouet: drums This trio was great and very creative. They played one song (can we call it a song?) for more than one hour and they played as a game between them. Their technique was absolutely perfect and it was great to see these guys having fun with their instruments. It reminds me the CD of Zorn and Frith (The art of memory) with drums and "percussions" (sorry I am French !!) with a much better sax or clarinet. (I think Sclavis has a musicality in his play that Zorn does not have... but sure, Zorn can play higher and in ultra sound !!!!) For those in Europe: Joey Baron 's down will play in Paris in February Frith will be back in June and July Zorn with Tzadik (no more info, yet) in March Zorn with Masada in April Olivier ps: if you are interested, I can write again something about the gig and CD of Tom Cora's roof ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 02:19:25 -0500 (EST) On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, dennis summers wrote: > Now it has been my experience > that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these > guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes > poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems > pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this > obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read > seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that > share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that > opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out. A bunch of interesting stuff here. I'll just comment on a couple of things. 1) Hype: I do get the feeling that there's quite a lot of hype surrounding Zorn, simply because he does have this peculiar "avant-superstar" status, but I can't figure out where the hype's coming from. He doesn't really get much coverage in jazz magazines, and his coverage in magazines like _The Wire_ and _Option_ isn't particularly greater than that afforded a number of other adventurous musicians. So how is it that Zorn has managed to acquire the cache (not to mention the cash) to keep Avant and Tzadik going? Did that first Naked City record on Elektra sell that well? 2) Zorn's "Poor" Playing and Composing: This obviously depends a great deal on the standard being used. If your standard of composition is based on 19th Century European orchestral music, zorn has not established himself as an outstanding composer. If your standard of playing is based on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player. Many smart, educated people use these sorts of standards, and will thus consider Zorn to measue up poorly on one or both counts. Personally, I don't think Zorn's through-composed work is nearly as interesting as his filecard or game compositions, and I also don't think that his playing in more conventional jazz contexts measures up to, say, his Masada cohorts (although, to his credit, the Masada work shows him to be an excellent writer of heads for improvising). I wouldn't call him bad at either of these, but I can imagine that someone who heard Zorn primarily in these contexts might overreact to the hype (or whatever) and describe his work as poor. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 02:36:26 -0500 (EST) On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > This topic centers around subjective criteria of what's good and what is > fake. I certainly don't have to make the ontological argument for art on a > list about John Zorn. :) As someone asked, what is a fake anyway? Well, > what ISN'T a fake? Aesthetics is a touchy subject, and finding value in any > particular art form is often a subjective matter. I'm not sure what this means. Artistic merit is certainly not just up to taste. It's appropriate to ask for reasons when I say I find value in a piece of art, and I can be convinced by argument to change my mind. > As far as academic, objective evidence to the fact that Zorn is credible as > a musician and composer (in our day and age, at least), suffice it to say > that I don't think Kronos Quartet goes around commissioning works from > fakes - they certainly don't have that much free time. Hmmm. Kronos have done some fine work, but they're also guilty sometimes of trendiness and poor judgement (e.g. TV medleys, "Purple Haze"). I wouldn't put it past them to commission work from Zorn simply because he's perceived as hip. Maybe that Zorn character is all hype. > In the end, it's all what you like. No, it's not. If Zorn's music were predictable and derivative, it would be bad, and if you liked it, you'd be showing yourself to have bad taste. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu Chris's Pet Peeve of the Week: kneejerk relativism ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 02:44:33 -0500 (EST) On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, ALAN E. KAYSER wrote: > The same cries of "fake" are familiar to those who have been around for > a while. Back when Ornette Coleman released his first few Atlantic LPs, > he was also called a fake, couldn't play or compose. He was put down by > most musicians, like Miles Davis, and hated by the critics. Today he is > a living legend. Same sort of stuff was said about Monk, Charlie > Parker, and even Beethoven. LvB was totally misunderstood in his > lifetime. I don't mean to imply that JZ is on the same level. What is > a fake, anyway? JZ has fans, people buy his stuff. To call him a fake > is absurd. Small minds... Well, these arguments have force because sometimes they're on target. People also cried "fake" over progressive rock, and, in the main, they were right. Are the people decrying Kenny G today going to look ridiculous in a few decades? Let's hope not. I don't think you can so readily dismiss these accusations. If the accusations are wrong, we ought to be able to show that they're wrong. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 03:10:45 -0500 (EST) On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, dennis summers wrote: > Are there "educated" listeners out there, that > share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that > opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out. In the April 1994 issue of _The Wire_, Steve Albini is very dismissive of Zorn in an interview. In a recent issue of _Cadence_, Bob Rusch interviews Joey Baron and questions Zorn's sincerity as an artist; Baron of course leaps to Zorn's defense in his likable, mild-mannered way. (I can't find my copy of this issue right now, but I think it's November 1996.) Cook and Morton express worries about Zorn's opportunism in the 3rd edition of the _Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD_, but they like all the records they talk about, so thay may not count. In his articles on Zorn reprinted in _Outcats_ and _Bebop and Nothingness_, Francis Davis is fairly critical of the game compositions and of _Spy Vs. Spy_ while praising some of Zorn's other work. The problem here seems to be that no one devotes articles or reviews to trashing Zorn, so criticisms are only made as an aside. He's just not quite sufficiently prominent that people who hate his work feel obligated to write about him at all. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fenechd@charon.stm.com (David FENECH) Subject: Derek & the Ruins play at the TAKLOS (Switzerland) festival also ... Date: 13 Jan 1997 10:21:20 +0100 > From: Torsten Nielsen > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:13:12 +0100 (MET) > Subject: Derek Bailey + The Ruins > > I just read that Derek Bailey will "probably" be playing two concerts > with The Ruins in England in a few months. > I thought that Masuda had left... Is there a new bass player? > > Jonas This year Derek Bailey will also play with RUINS at the TAKLOS festival of Basel , Switzerland. I can provide more info if you want. david ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sean Winchester Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 01:14:28 -0800 ------------70CF51F64E542 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii this string of messages from C.H. makes me want to chew my teeth it's a truck stop feeling a buffet feeling a that's why i dropped out of college feeling weird and gross criticism and like all critics very trivial and unfelt and totally screwed up in a confusing wagon of moron chops of mefuck and drivel very disgusting keil winchester ------------70CF51F64E542 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
this string of messages from C.H.  makes me want to chew my teeth
 
it's a truck stop feeling
a buffet feeling
a that's why i dropped out of college feeling
 
weird and gross criticism and like all critics very trivial and unfelt and totally screwed up in a confusing wagon of moron chops of  mefuck and drivel
 
very disgusting
 
keil winchester
------------70CF51F64E542-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anders.fransson@hoe.se (Anders Fransson) Subject: Cora, Marble, Taste Date: 13 Jan 1997 11:15:20 +0200 Nguyen van Tan, Wrote about Tom Cora`s Roof. Yes I am interested! Is there anyone how could sell me a copy of that Zorn Marble or Steel Box? If you like Zorn, you like him. there are people how like kenny g, I don`t. Sincerely Anders - Anders Fransson, Biblioteket H=F6gskolan i =D6rebro, 701 82 =D6REBRO e-post: anders.fransson@hoe.se Tel +46 19 303866 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: RE: Sonic Youth / Yamatanka Eye Date: 13 Jan 1997 09:32:00 PST >>On a different note, has anybody heard the Sonic >>Youth/Yamantanka Eye collaboration 12''? I think >>it is called TV shit, but for some reason the liner notes refer to one of >>Stockhausen's pieces...Have they covered the piece >>(or parts of it, anyway) or is it just a joke? The album/E.P. (if you can call it that - I think it's only about 9 minutes long) is called "TV Shit" and is on Thurston Moore's Estatic Peace label. The "album" is multiple versions of the same song, which is a cover of D.C. punk band Youth Brigade's "No II". From what I remember reading, They put Stockhausen on the CD spine as a joke so record stores that weren't paying attention would put it in the Stockhausen section (boy, what a suprise this would be to some unknowing Stockhausen enthusiast!). I'm not too sure if it's worth spending a lot of money on it, but it definitely is an interesting CD. If you find it used (maybe sold by one of those Stockhausen people) then you may want to pick it up. Matt Walsh mattw@smginc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Moffett Subject: Re: your mail Date: 13 Jan 1997 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, N Vassiliou wrote: > Hi all. > > I was wondering if there are any news of a new Mr. Bungle or Mike Patton release in the near future. It's been a long time > since Disco Volante... Someone already mentioned the Secret Chiefs 3, so I won't go into it except to say it's probably the closest thing Spruance has done to Zorn yet. As far as a new Bungle album, Danny Heifetz said in a recent interview that they had plans to go back into the studio after their australian tour. The tour ended about a month ago, so I don't really know the status right now...there's talk about a complete noise album, or a death metal album, or both, but who knows. It will at least be another year, because Patton is going to be very busy with Faith No More stuff relatively soon (new album in the spring). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Anthony Coleman Trio Date: 13 Jan 1997 08:37:34 -0800 On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:07:27 -0800 (PST) Holtby wrote: > > I'm a digest subscriber, and I may have missed some of the discussion, but > someone mentioned that the Coleman trio is on the same exalted level as > Misha Mengelberg's "Who's Bridge". Can this be true? Are his tunes as > tuneful and the playing as much fun? No, it is different but both are trio records (with piano) and very original. I put both next to each other because of many similarity in the form/format/ originality. I also feel that there are some common points between Mengelberg and Coleman (they seem to use the same kind of razors, for example :-). Both have a oblique way of playing musique and their covers are rarely predictable. To conclude: the music is different but both are really refreshing "jazz" piano trios. > Someone on rec.music.bluenote revealed that Mengelberg,Jones amd > Baron had recorded a follow-up trio session. I presume that this will be > coming out on Avant, and wonder if anyone is in the loop. I would definitely like to know more about it. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Mills Subject: The Horns of Dilemma Date: 13 Jan 1997 13:45:36 -0700 All- Way back when, I saw the Violent Femmes live ('88?) and the Horns of Dilemma appeared as backup. Now, on the album "Hallowed Ground" (which has since disappeared from my possession) Zorn is listed as the Game-call Meister. I was wondering if JZ toured with the VF as a member of the Horns of Dilemma or what? And were the Horns of Dilemma extant as a self sufficient performance/recording...uh...unit, or where they a one off for "Hallowed Ground"? Anyone? I cannot continue work until I know this thing. Greg Mills Copywriter ADVERTISING: The bastard offspring of Art and Commerce kill their parents and go watch roller derby. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 13:05:15 -0700 > > In the end, it's all what you like. > > No, it's not. If Zorn's music were predictable and derivative, it would > be bad, and if you liked it, you'd be showing yourself to have bad taste. > > Chris Hamilton > chhst9+@pitt.edu > > Chris's Pet Peeve of the Week: kneejerk relativism > shiurba's new pet peeve: kneejerk arbitration of taste :-) -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: The Horns of Dilemma Date: 13 Jan 1997 13:25:36 -0800 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:45:36 -0700 Greg Mills wrote: > > All- > > Way back when, I saw the Violent Femmes live ('88?) and the Horns of > Dilemma appeared as backup. Now, on the album "Hallowed Ground" (which > has since disappeared from my possession) Zorn is listed as the Game-call > Meister. > > I was wondering if JZ toured with the VF as a member of the Horns of > Dilemma or what? I doubt that Zorn ever toured with the Violent Femmes. There is an article where he shortly mentions the recording session where they gave him total freedom to do what he wanted. Nothing else is mentioned, which seems to indicate that their "collaboration" did not go beyond the recording session of Black Girls. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 13:27:39 -0700 > Well, these arguments have force because sometimes they're on target. > People also cried "fake" over progressive rock, and, in the main, they > were right. Are the people decrying Kenny G today going to look > ridiculous in a few decades? Let's hope not. I don't think you can so > readily dismiss these accusations. If the accusations are wrong, we ought > to be able to show that they're wrong. it's interesting at look at how people like Ornette Coleman and Anthony Braxton have overcome these accusations. Ornette would basically smile and bite his tongue, Braxton would grimace and stand up for his right to challenge the criteria used to judge his music. Yet, in the end, it wasn't really what either said or didn't say about being called a fake (or whatever) that redeemed them and secured their legacy, it was simply the music itself, and each plugged away as long as it took, until finally (a substantial portion of) the public and the critics came around to see that work was sincere and legitimate. > 2) Zorn's "Poor" Playing and Composing: This obviously depends a great > deal on the standard being used. If your standard of composition is based > on 19th Century European orchestral music, zorn has not established > himself as an outstanding composer. If your standard of playing is based > on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player. Many > smart, educated people use these sorts of standards, and will thus > consider Zorn to measue up poorly on one or both counts. perhaps many smart, educated people are misapplying these standards then. It just doesn't make sense to take a saxophonist who has created a body of work that includes "The Classic Guide To Strategy" among other things and judge him solely against a backdrop of bebop saxophonists. Likewise with his notated music, with respect to 19th (!?) Century composition. Zorn doesn't fall in line after Beethoven and Wagner, there are generations of developments since then shed a whole new light on Zorn's ideas about composition and its interface with improvisation, among other things. > I wouldn't call him bad > at either of these, but I can imagine that someone who heard Zorn > primarily in these contexts might overreact to the hype (or whatever) and > describe his work as poor. and that would reflect, in this case little more than their ignorance. Not to imply that they need to like this music, or even to recognize any music after 1900 as having any value-- but judgements/criticism made without historical perspective are rarely of much value. -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: OLD (was Re: James Plotkin) Date: 13 Jan 1997 16:49:24 -0500 LP Thorpe wrote: >Any idea when the Relapse release is coming out? Maybe Plotkin got tired of >the lack of support from Earache. Well, Earache dropped Old (if I remember correctly) some 5 or 6 months ago, apparently because they weren't doing enough for the label saleswise & in other areas as well. Also, Alan Dubin (vocalist) left the band sometime around this period. I don't think Jimmy cared very much either way in terms of leaving the label, but I would say he did get tired of the lack of support (a major complaint from bands on the label). Of course, with Old on hiatus, Plotkin has been free to continue his solo (A Strange, Perplexing CD, and the soon to be released d'n'b 12" "Jungle Concret" as Jupiter Crew on Harris' Possible label) and collaborative work (Collapse w/ Harris, The Joy Of Disease (which was actually finished in '95), an upcoming guitar collaboration with Brent Gutzeit, and a CD entitled "Form" on Sub Rosa, again with Harris). I've been meaning to ask Relapse for an actual release date, but so far it's scheduled for sometime this Spring. In the meantime, if it's not out already, there's supposed to be a 7" also on Relapse called "Old Does Neu" where the band (Plotkin et al. plus whatever new vocalist he chooses, he was considering a female one) covers (you guessed it) legendary Krautrockers, Neu. For anyone interested in more Old/Plotkin info, check out: wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~strahorn/old -Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 13:57:39 -0800 On Sat, 11 Jan 97 18:05 WET dennis summers wrote: > > I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting > conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience > that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these > guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes > poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems > pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this > obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read > seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that > share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that > opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out. I will only talk about people who are supposed to know (as opposed to people who have not the slightest clue). I notice that Zorn has a propension to annoy a lot of people, specially musicians who play in only one genre of music and are having a hard time at doing it correctly (meaning: no audience, total lack of interest for their performance, not able to get any record out, etc). For these people, somebody like Zorn who can hop from one style to another with fairly good results and non negligeable success, is the summum of what they can accept. I have encountered people like that and tried to keep polite. I guess that for their ego, thinking that Zorn is a fake is the best they can come up with. Without that escape they would have to face some embarrassing questions such as: "What would music be without me?", and the terrible answer: "The same..." In clear, most of these comments are coming from fairly mediocre artists who indulge too much in petting their own back. The good thing is that you can recognize them easily, and hence avoid them. By this I am not trying to say that every person who dares to have some questions concerning Zorn's relevance falls in this category. But I have met enough people with such an attitude toward Zorn that it is my first reaction when I hear this kind of statement (that Zorn is a fake). Some other reasons? Maybe the myth of the tortured artist (that value and recognition do not go together). Maybe also earlier fans bitter that their avant garde darling gets "too much" coverage. Zorn fails to meet all the romantic cliches associated with an artist: - he is in control - he knows what he is doing - he knows what he wants - he knows how to get it - he is versatile - good in business - he is imaginative - he can use his weaknesses at his advantage where some people would like to see him: - soft spoken - frail - quiet - moving in a one-minded, one-dimension style of music - lousy in business - playing in empty clubs Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ag621@detroit.freenet.org (Patrick J. Frisco) Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #48 Date: 13 Jan 1997 17:26:39 -0500 Re: Zorn a fake?: Of course he is, like so many other creative musicians. Seems that a lot of artists like to devote entire careers, hours of practice, composing, traveling with poor accomodations, and living in poverty, just so that they may be called fakes by those who REALLY know. Disgustedly yours, Pat Frisco ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 19:50:46 -0500 (EST) On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, john shiurba wrote: > shiurba's new pet peeve: kneejerk arbitration of taste :-) My legs are a-twitchin'. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 19:48:44 -0500 (EST) On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > >I'm not sure what this means. Artistic merit is certainly not just up to > >taste. It's appropriate to ask for reasons when I say I find value in a > >piece of art, and I can be convinced by argument to change my mind. > > I didn't say it was "just up to taste." I said it was "often a subjective > matter." For the record, when I said I wasn't sure what you meant, I wasn't being rhetorical. The "just up to taste" bit was something I feared you might mean. Glad to see I was wrong. It is certainly appropriate to ask for reasons, and I maintain > that saying "well, I just really dig it - i don't know why i like it" is a > good enough answer for that particular person to find value in and enjoy a > work of art. Sure, but that's not artistic value. I could also just dig a rock, scuba diving, or the number 3. Having gone this far, you should also define what exactly is > meant by "value" and to what end the "value" of something needs to be > judged. Is it the personal, emotional value of a work to an individual (how > much more subjective can you get), or is it the inherent value of the work > of art to the edification of onlookers/listeners, or the value of the work > to the historical growth of the art form, or simply the value of human > artifact to prosperity? Fair enough. And I admit I'm not sure what people mean when they call Zorn's work "poor", although I'd bet they don't mean just that it has low personal value for them. > Reading interviews with Zorn describing his recording sessions with the > Kronos, I disagree. Where has he discussed this? > Prove objectively why being predictable and derivative is an exaple of bad > taste, and I might agree with you. Well, I'm still not sure how you're using the words "objectively" and "subjectively", but I'll try (briefly) to convince you. Predictable music simply fails to hold a reasonable person's attention. Derivative music is always less interesting than whatever music it's derived from. The combination is pretty bad. Although, see below. (I haven't spent much time on the above because I don't take your question seriously. It's certainly true that any of the characteristics we associate with good and bad art can be called into question. But if you call them all into question, you're just giving up on art. That's preferable to giving up on morality or physics, but it still seems like a bad move. And it's also likely to turn you into a boor. Of course, so is dissecting every beautiful thing that comes your way.) > Apropos that proof, liking music for its > predictability and derivative nature is different than liking music for its > sonic content and musical qualities. Sure it is. The former shows bad taste. > Even outside of that, hell, Haydn and > Mozart and predictable and derivative. So is Beethoven. So is Bach. So is > Schubert. So is Wagner. So is Verdi. So is Rossini. The quality of being > predictable and derivative doesn't necessitate poor musical and artistic > value. I think your standards of originality are much higher than mine. In any case, I admit there may be cases where music is good despite being predictable and derivative. But my use of "despite" in the preceding sentence is important. If you convinced me that something were predictable and derivative, I'd have to admit it was bad unless I could come up with some compensating attribute. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 20:18:34 -0500 (EST) On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, john shiurba wrote: > Yet, in the end, it wasn't really what either said or didn't say about > being called a fake (or whatever) that redeemed them and secured their > legacy, it was simply the music itself, and each plugged away as long > as it took, until finally (a substantial portion of) the public and the > critics came around to see that work was sincere and legitimate. I think this is an oversimplification. Obviously, it's ultimately about the music. If that's not there, the public will have no work to see as legitimate. But if that work's going to be done where people can hear it, somebody's going to have to talk about it. I doubt that anyone on this list would ever have heard Coleman, Braxton or Zorn without the help of whatever reasonable, articulate person (critic, musician, or fan) pointed out their merits to us. > > 2) Zorn's "Poor" Playing and Composing *SNIP* > > I wouldn't call him bad > > at either of these, but I can imagine that someone who heard Zorn > > primarily in these contexts might overreact to the hype (or whatever) and > > describe his work as poor. > > and that would reflect, in this case little more than their ignorance. Not to imply that > they need to like this music, or even to recognize any music after 1900 as having any > value-- but judgements/criticism made without historical perspective are rarely of > much value. I agree with most of what you've said here (including and especially in the snipped section), but I suspect this last response isn't directed at the point I meant to convey. The contexts I had in mind were Zorn's through-composed pieces (for his composition) and Masada (for his saxophone playing). Someone who approached this work with a solid background in modern classical/avant-garde jazz and no other knowledge of Zorn's work would likely not be very impressed by Zorn's composing/playing. Describing that work as poor would still be an overreaction, but no worse than the one I bite down and swallow every time I hear Wynton Marsalis. But the only historical perspective lacking would be the knowledge of how this work fits into Zorn's own musical history. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy) Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 18:43:13 -0800 It's often difficult to deal with this kind of thing in a specialized audience like this one, but simply because WE all appreciate what Zorn does, there's no reason to expect that every one else will, does, or should. Nor does it mean that all of those who don't think Zorn is an important innovator are uneducated, stupid, or mis-informed. No single artist can serve as a litmus test for intelligence. There are lots of people who don't like Zorn, just as there are lots of people who don't like nearly anything. Patrice accurately describes one category of musician who frequently find Zorn to be "fake", those players who may never get it together to make a name for themselves, but there are other aesthetic stances from which Zorn's achievements may not seem particularly mighty. These range from the already referenced musicians who feel it is necessary to focus on mastering a single style of performance, & see Zorn as just a dabbler, to contemporary composers who feel that improvisation is unimportant, to listeners who don't see the point in a collage of many styles, or loud/fast music, or whatever. There are also people who think that many of what are thought of as Zorn's key compositional ploys (game structures, collage of differing styles, etc.) have been done before, and they're often able to cite many precursors in defense of this point of view. If it's really important to you that everyone agrees with your own aesthetic views, all of these people disliking Zorn's music may present a problem. But frankly, I think that if you don't have at least one friend whose opinions about music, art, books, food, or whatever differ from your own, you need to get out more, 'cause it really shouldn't matter that much. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 13 Jan 1997 20:08:08 -0800 (PST) Christopher Hamilton, demi-God and Icon sez: >Did that first Naked City record on Elektra sell that well? rumor is that it sold over 75,000 copies. mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier Subject: Tzadik Festival 97 Date: 14 Jan 1997 13:35:55 +0100 Hi, I have some more info about the Tzadik Festival in Paris. Here is the list of the gigs. Can you comment my mail with: who play? what CD? + a judgement about these bands / project. 11 Mars: Klezmer Madness Eyvind Kang Project The Ruins ( I am disapointed no mention of Derek Bayley ????) 12 Mars: Death Ambient Plotkin Trio Elegy Anthony Coleman Thanks for your knowledge and your advice... Olivier ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier Subject: Masada at mogador Date: 14 Jan 1997 13:37:51 +0100 Masada fans, I saw in the zornography of Patrice that a Masada at Mogador was planned... Can you tell me more about it? Where recorded? When? Olivier ps: because there is a place in Paris called Mogador but I don't see the point? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "s.lucas" Subject: Re: Mc Hellshit Date: 14 Jan 1997 13:00:31 +0100 >>I have got a 3"cd with Mc Hellshit & Dj Carhouse alias Yamatsuka Eye and >>Otomo Yoshihide, label: Blast first. Eye on screming and Yoshihide on >>turntables, tape et. It=B4s a live performance at a place called = Discobay or >>Disobay??? Does anybody know more about it? > >This is a recording of Otomo Yoshihide (DJ Carhouse) & Yamatsuka/Yamantaka >Eye (MC Hellshit) live in '95 at Club Disobey in London. The disc clocks >in at around 19 minutes, with 9 tracks showing up on the CD, but 12 listed >on the sleeve. This is amazing stuff ... Basically it consists of Otomo Two things: They did not play Disobey in London, but at The Royal Festival Hall. This CD is of the Disobey Manchester gig, the same weekend. The Royal Festival Hall gig was (judging from the 3inch CD, I wasn't = at that one) much better and is available (in part) on a CD from = Shoei at Japan Overseas, Osaka. I think she put 4 tracks on it with = around 8 or 9 pieces of music: about 20 minutes. Eye did the cover = and re-edited the track ordering. I haven't heard this version yet, = but the original CD-R was great. If you write to her, please tell her = I sent you. I have her email address somewhere. simon lucas simon lucas research associate in multimedia kingston university simon@isys.kingston.ac.uk r.mutt@readymade.demon.co.uk http://infosys.kingston.ac.uk/isschool/staff/s.lucas/lucas.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Moffett Subject: Alexander von Schlippenbach Date: 14 Jan 1997 10:29:45 -0500 (EST) Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means). I already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything. Does anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like? Just curious. Thanks in advance. matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Masada at mogador Date: 14 Jan 1997 08:43:09 -0800 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:37:51 +0100 NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier wrote: > > Masada fans, > > I saw in the zornography of Patrice that a Masada at Mogador was planned... That's the restaurant in NYC (a real nice place for breakfast), not Paris. > Can you tell me more about it? > > Where recorded? When? This record was planned a long time ago but with the DIW flood, Tzadik decided to wait a little bit. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach Date: 14 Jan 1997 09:15:57 -0800 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:29:45 -0500 (EST) Matt Moffett wrote: > > Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith > No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was > doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means). I > already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything. Does > anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like? Just > curious. Thanks in advance. I know Schlippenbach's music and I do not see at all what these people mean! Schlippenbach is one of the main European improvisers. His band (Globe Unity) was, to my knowledge, the first to perform improv. in a big band context (not to mention the idea of gathering musicians all across Europe, at a time the EEC was just a dream :-). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach Date: 14 Jan 1997 13:08:03 -0500 >Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith >No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was >doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means). I >already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything. Does >anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like? Just >curious. Thanks in advance. Matt - I realize you're not the source of this claim so please don't think for a moment that I'm sounding off on you, far from it! It's just that I think this claim is misleading to say the least... what's it supposed to mean? It doesn't really describe what Schlippenbach does and it comes off sounding like yet another attempt to belittle Zorn's massive accomplishments. It's the same line of thinking that produced that whole stupid "Zorn Sucks" argument that I think Patrice quite eloquently stamped out a bit earlier. Schlippenbach is a remarkable pianist/composer who founded the Globe Unity Orchestra, nominally leads one of the greatest improv trios in the world with Evan Parker and Paul Lovens, and now also leads the Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra which has recorded for ECM and FMP. You can find out lots more about him on Peter Stubley's excellent European Free Improvisation page, at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mschlipp.html Steve Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach Date: 14 Jan 1997 13:08:03 -0500 >Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith >No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was >doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means). I >already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything. Does >anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like? Just >curious. Thanks in advance. Matt - I realize you're not the source of this claim so please don't think for a moment that I'm sounding off on you, far from it! It's just that I think this claim is misleading to say the least... what's it supposed to mean? It doesn't really describe what Schlippenbach does and it comes off sounding like yet another attempt to belittle Zorn's massive accomplishments. It's the same line of thinking that produced that whole stupid "Zorn Sucks" argument that I think Patrice quite eloquently stamped out a bit earlier. Schlippenbach is a remarkable pianist/composer who founded the Globe Unity Orchestra, nominally leads one of the greatest improv trios in the world with Evan Parker and Paul Lovens, and now also leads the Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra which has recorded for ECM and FMP. You can find out lots more about him on Peter Stubley's excellent European Free Improvisation page, at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mschlipp.html Steve Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach Date: 14 Jan 1997 10:35:31 -0800 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:08:03 -0500 Steve Smith wrote: > > >Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith > >No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was > >doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means). I > >already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything. Does > >anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like? Just > >curious. Thanks in advance. > > Matt - > > I realize you're not the source of this claim so please don't think for a > moment that I'm sounding off on you, far from it! It's just that I think > this claim is misleading to say the least... what's it supposed to mean? > It doesn't really describe what Schlippenbach does and it comes off > sounding like yet another attempt to belittle Zorn's massive > accomplishments. It's the same line of thinking that produced that whole > stupid "Zorn Sucks" argument that I think Patrice quite eloquently stamped > out a bit earlier. > > Schlippenbach is a remarkable pianist/composer who founded the Globe Unity > Orchestra, nominally leads one of the greatest improv trios in the world > with Evan Parker and Paul Lovens, and now also leads the Berlin > Contemporary Jazz Orchestra which has recorded for ECM and FMP. You can > find out lots more about him on Peter Stubley's excellent European Free > Improvisation page, at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mschlipp.html Totally agree with Steve. The funny thing is that Mengelberg would have made a little bit more sense (because of his involvement with contemporary avant garde and other dadaist experiments), but Baron Schlippenbach? I really don't get it. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach Date: 14 Jan 1997 16:49:29 -0500 (EST) On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > I know Schlippenbach's music and I do not see at all what these people > mean! Schlippenbach is one of the main European improvisers. His band > (Globe Unity) was, to my knowledge, the first to perform improv. in a > big band context (not to mention the idea of gathering musicians all > across Europe, at a time the EEC was just a dream :-). I'd have thought (perhaps wrongly) that the Sun Ra Arkestra's use of free improvisation predated Globe Unity. (Also, didn't the Brotzmann Octet which recorded _Machine Gun_ exist as a unit before Globe Unity actually included any non-German members? I seem to recall reading that somewhere. Not a big band, of course, but the Octet did have a pretty international lineup.) Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 14 Jan 1997 18:56:37 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-01-11 18:08:16 EST, denniss@ic.net (dennis summers) writes: > I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting > conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience > that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these > guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes > poorly and generally is overhyped Saying someone plays and writes poorly, is just an opinion. These things are subjective. Now, if your friends could substantiate their claims, as to *why* he is a "fake", that would be different. If they could, say, point out a fact, like that Zorn ripped off "Joe Composer", and could cite specific references to this ripping off... I think that may actually qualify someone for being a fake. But I think his writing is completely original, and wether or not its good or bad is neither here nor there, but I think its original. And as far as his sax playing goes, he is also original in the way he plays the sax. Aside from playing the wild, animal calls, and otherwise out-there stuff, he can play some serious bop. Methinks he's pretty damn talented. My point: I don't think he's a fake. Cocky and arrogant, maybe.. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 14 Jan 1997 16:22:53 -0800 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:56:37 -0500 (EST) IOUaLive1@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-01-11 18:08:16 EST, denniss@ic.net (dennis summers) > writes: > > > I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting > > conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience > > that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but > these > > guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes > > poorly and generally is overhyped > > Saying someone plays and writes poorly, is just an opinion. These things are ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I can tell you that if I try to play clarinet and somebody says that I play poorly, this would not be an opinion at all, but just stating a (sad, but nevertheless true) fact. Personally I really do not care about what people think of Zorn's alto sound and technique. I can recognize Zorn among hundred of alto players after just few measures. Rare are the alto players with such a signature. If the point if copying Parker (Charlie), Desmond, McLean or Dolphy, yes, Zorn might not be at their level. But is it what we should expect from a musician of the '90s? Has jazz reached a point similar to classical music where creation is so stale that only interpretation is left to a player (and departure from the canon a fault)? Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John E. Young" Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #49 Date: 14 Jan 1997 20:04:15 -0800 (PST) > > himself as an outstanding composer. If your standard of playing is based > > on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player. Many i've missed much of this thread, but this statement, in particular, seems worth some debate. zorn doesn't spend his time playing "night in tunisia" over and over (or any other bop chestnuts), but i'd challenge anyone who's seen a masada show to name an alto player who tops him in live performance in a bebop style. masada's tunes are based on jewish music, but when they do the uptempo stuff, it's as close to bop as any new music now being played. zorn's chops, harmonic inventiveness, and melodic sense are on a par (in my experience of a few masada shows) with anyone else these days on his instrument. i'd even venture to say he tops everyone else (but that's only in my experience). jy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Tzadik Festival 97 Date: 15 Jan 1997 04:13:06 -0500 NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier wrote: >I have some more info about the Tzadik Festival in Paris. Here is >the list of the gigs. >11 Mars: >Klezmer Madness >Eyvind Kang Project >The Ruins >12 Mars: >Death Ambient I would love to see this ... >Plotkin Trio * Whoa! Any info here? James Plotkin, I presume, but with who??? >Elegy This as well ... >Anthony Coleman Does anyone know any more about this festival? -Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fenechd@charon.stm.com (David FENECH) Subject: More details about the TAKTLOS festival (Switzerland) Date: 15 Jan 1997 09:36:30 +0100 > > This year Derek Bailey will also play with RUINS at the TAKTLOS festival > > of Basel , Switzerland. I can provide more info if you want. > > > Please send me all the information you have. Do you know who else will be > playing at the festival, what date it takes place and how I order tickets? > > Thanks alot!! > So here are the info that I just received. They might interest all the suscribers from Europe... The TAKTLOS 1997 festival will take place in BASEL, BERN & ZURICH (Switzerland) from March 21 to 23. The programme will include Derek & the Ruins (Derek Bailey , Tatsuya Yoshida & HISASHI SASAKI the new bass player). There will also be : Death Ambient (Ikue Mori , K Hideki, J Plotkin) Paul Bley/Evan Parker/Barre Phillips trio Ellington country (with chadbourne , P.lovens ...) Kletka Red (with Andy from the ex, Leonid from Ne Zhdali, Tony buck from Peril) Sephardic Tinge (Antony Coleman, Greg Cohen, Michael Sarin) Thurston Moore/Tom Surgal/ William Winant The Great Explorer (John Edwards from God, Shock exchange + David Fitzgerald) Tristan Hosinger quintet you can e-mail Fredi Bosshard for further info : fb@woz.links.ch He also has a web site : http://www.hugo.ch/ bye david FENECH ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Pleshar Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #49 Date: 15 Jan 1997 08:25:05 -0600 (CST) At 08:04 PM 1/14/97 -0800, John E. Young wrote: >> > himself as an outstanding composer. If your standard of playing is based >> > on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player. Many > >i've missed much of this thread, but this statement, in particular, seems >worth some debate. zorn doesn't spend his time playing "night in >tunisia" over and over (or any other bop chestnuts), but i'd challenge >anyone who's seen a masada show to name an alto player who tops him in >live performance in a bebop style. Actually, I've heard that the ONLY thing he practices is bebop tunes. >masada's tunes are based on jewish >music, but when they do the uptempo stuff, it's as close to bop as >any new music now being played. zorn's chops, harmonic inventiveness, >and melodic sense are on a par (in my experience of a few masada shows) >with anyone else these days on his instrument. i'd even venture >to say he tops everyone else (but that's only in my experience). I agree that Zorn is an underrated saxophone player. Critics (not all) seem to think there is one standard by which sax players should be measured against and if someone excels in another aspect, that is not counted as highly. I doubt he'll ever win the Downbeat critics or listeners poll, but there's no reason every alto sax player should be compared to Phil Woods. Ralph ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: Blood Duster Date: 15 Jan 1997 11:11:00 PST Someone had asked me for a review I did on Blood Duster in New Rock Review. I lost his address but figured since it was so short it could be posted to the list for anyone else that was interested in them. The review is REALLY short and not very descript (we review tons of stuff so all reviews all usually one paragraph), but maybe this will answer some people's questions a little. If anyone wants more info on them, let me know. Blood Duster "Yeest" (Relapse Records) Matt Walsh When I found out that this band got their name from a song from one of my favorite bands, Naked City, I knew this was going to be a band I was going to like a lot. Their label describes Blood Duster as "Psycho Rock Menstrual Grind Porn", and as odd as it sounds, it's pretty much on target. What we have here is a Grindcore band definitely influenced by old Napalm Death with a killer groove sound similar to Entombed. Throw in some funny and disgusting sound bits from various movies, and you have Blood Duster. The 32 tracks total at approximately 39 minutes (that's nearly one minute per track, for all you non-mathematicians). The result is an intense disc yet also humorous. Definitely recommended to fans of early Grindcore. Matt Walsh mattw@smginc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier Subject: Tom Cora 's Roof Date: 15 Jan 1997 18:57:00 +0100 Long time ago, on the 21st of November 1996, I saw Tom Cora 's roof at "les Instants Chavires" in Paris. This band is composed by: Tom Cora : cello Luc Ex : bass Phil Minton : vocals Michael Vatcher : drums This gig was so GREAT. Phil Minton looks like Joe Cocker ("oh, my god, not Joe Cocker" I said before the show !!) but for sure, this man was great ! Sometimes, he sang like a disney toon (or sounds like) and sometimes, he really sang with a deep and dark voice. He IS so GOOD. Tom Cora : as usual, excellent. He said to me that now, he lives in France (in Marseille) and is married with a French singer. Luc Ex was tremendous at bass and was a fury in the back of the stage. Powerfull and complex kind of play. Michael Vatcher was also very very good and very creative behind drums. He reminds me Joey Baron in his play, but not as quick and sharp as Joey. This band is really one of the best band I saw in 1996 and I bought their CD. It is great with the same atmosphere as in gigs. It is called "The untraceable cigar" (don't ask me why?) and it is on Red Note (a German label). I advice you to listen to this CD because it is very emotional : quite and powerfull, creative and very musical. I love it. Olivier ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Tom Cora 's Roof Date: 15 Jan 1997 14:13:02 -0800 On Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:57:00 +0100 NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier wrote: > > Long time ago, on the 21st of November 1996, I saw > Tom Cora 's roof at "les Instants Chavires" in Paris. > > This band is composed by: > Tom Cora : cello > Luc Ex : bass > Phil Minton : vocals > Michael Vatcher : drums > > This gig was so GREAT. Phil Minton looks like Joe Cocker > ("oh, my god, not Joe Cocker" I said before the show !!) but > for sure, this man was great ! Sometimes, he sang like > a disney toon (or sounds like) and sometimes, he really > sang with a deep and dark voice. He IS so GOOD. > > Tom Cora : as usual, excellent. He said to me that now, he > lives in France (in Marseille) and is married with a French singer. ^^^^^^ French or Belgium? Last I heard he Catherine Jauniaux and Tom were living together. > Luc Ex was tremendous at bass and was a fury in the back of the > stage. Powerfull and complex kind of play. > > Michael Vatcher was also very very good and very creative behind drums. > He reminds me Joey Baron in his play, but not as quick and sharp as > Joey. Hey! Listen to SPY VS. SPY and the two men do a incredible job. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier Subject: RE: Tom Cora 's Roof Date: 16 Jan 1997 00:32:38 +0100 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC0345.1B2A1220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable French or Belgium? Last I heard he Catherine Jauniaux and Tom were living together. Yes, you 're right : Tom and Catherine Jauniaux for the tabloids ! ;=B0> Belgium? maybe... I don't know exactly. I thought she was French. Do you know more about her? BTW, Tom is doing some classical gigs in the South East of France=20 (near Marseille). Thanks for SPY vs SPY. 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Roussel" Subject: Re: Tom Cora 's Roof Date: 15 Jan 1997 15:49:14 -0800 On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:32:38 +0100 NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier wrote: > > French or Belgium? Last I heard he Catherine Jauniaux and Tom were > living together. > > Yes, you 're right : Tom and Catherine Jauniaux for the tabloids ! > ;=B0> > > Belgium? maybe... I don't know exactly. I thought she was French. > Do you know more about her? First, she is an amazing singer. Really twisted (yes, you can be an innovative female singer without imitating Diamanda Galas...). I first noticed her: 028 - UN PEU DE L'AME DES BANDITS: Aqsak Maboul 1/ A Modern Lesson (Hollander) 4:58 2/ Palmiers En Pots (Wuyts, Hollander) 3:24 3/ Geistige Nacht (Frith) 5:18 4/ I Viaggi Formano La Giovento (trad.) 5:09 5/ Inoculating Rabies (Van Hecke, Frith) 1:47 Cinema (Hollander, Wuyts) 22:45 6a/ Ce Qu'On Peut Voir Avec Un Bon Microscope 7:25 6b/ Alluvions 5:27 6c/ Azinou Crapules 7:05 6d/ Age Route Brra! (Radio Sofia) 2:48 Recorded in February and August 1979 at Sunrise Studio, Kirchberg, Switzerland Michel Berckmans: oboe, bassoon, choir; Chris Cutler (1,2,3,5,6): drums, percussion, radio; Fred Frith: bass, electric and acoustic guitars, violins, viola; Denis van Hecke: acoustic and electric cellos, rhythm guitar, voice; Marc Hollander: organ, alto, soprano, clarinet, bass clarinet, piano, dumbeg, tapes; Catherine Jauniaux (1,6): voice, flipper; Frank Wuyts (1,2,3, 4,6): drums, flipper, recorder, piano, oberheim, percussion, choir. 1979 - Kamikaze (Belgium), private pressing (LP) 1979 - Crammed Discs (Belgium), Atem/Crammed 002 (LP) 1996 - Crammed Discs (Belgium), CRAM 002 (CD) where she exhibits a unique talent. Besides that she has been working quite a bit with Ikue Mori (in Vibraslaps, their duo), and Tom Cora. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) Subject: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please Date: 15 Jan 1997 18:48:58 -0800 (PST) Hola Zorn-sters, Here is my VERY ROUGH first stab at the FAQ...I've listed some suggested questions that I haven't had a chance to write an answer to...please feel free to toss some prose my way. Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for the The John Zorn Mailing List version 1.0 DRAFT 1.0 When is John Zorn going to be playing in a city near me? Since there is no single source for John Zorns touring schedule, this FAQ will be updated with upcoming shows reported by other members of the zorn-list January 17, 1997 Slim's - San Francisco, USA John Zorn/Mike Patton/Ikue Mori January 22, 1997 Opium Den - Taipei, Taiwan John Zorn/Mike Patton/Ikue Mori March Paris, France Tzadik Festival Mar 11 Klezmer Madness Eyvind Kang Project The Ruins Mar 12 Death Ambient Plotkin Trio Elegy Anthony Coleman April 8, 1997 le hot brass - Paris, France Masada April 10, 1997 l'Ancienne Belgique - Brussels, Belgium Masada How can I get a copy of Masada 4? You can't. Well, it's pretty unlikely at the least. It was never available for retail; it was given away by DIW in exchange of the proof of buying the three first Masada; the deadline for getting it was June 1995. How do you pronounce "Tzadik"? TZ as in "glitzy" A as in "bad" DIK as in "deek" It means holy man in Hebrew Is "Heretic" by Naked City really a soundtrack? Are Mike Patton and The Melvins on "Leng T'che"? Is Zorn in Mr. Bungle? What happened to the "Radio Vol. 2" and the live box from the Zornfest? I hear that Zorn and Eugene Chadbourne broke up because Zorn ripped of Eugene, and now they hate eachother. Is that true? I just purchased Zorn/Bailey/Parker - Harras. Towards the end of of the track "Evening Harras," there's about 10 minutes of dead air, followed by a section of what seems to be Bailey solo. Is this a mistake? "According to Derek Bailey, the abrupt cutoff was planned. Derek wanted to end it "on a high". The Bailey solo material appended after the silence was apparently Zorn's idea." (thanks to Peter Stubley/Lynn Rardin) What's a "game piece"? Did Zorn and Yamantaka Eye really release a 100 cd box? how to order from Tzadik? Is there a zorn discography? -=- -=- -=- THANKS to the following people who helped (actively and inadvertently) answer the common questions that crop up on the zorn-list. herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy) zoopsi@inet.uni-c.dk (Torsten "Jonas" Nielsen) proussel@ichips.intel.com (Patrice L. Roussel) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please Date: 16 Jan 1997 07:58:39 -0800 Mike, You forgot the most important: - why do Zorn wear socks with different colors? - how many army pants does he own? - what is the size of his record collection (CD, LP, etc)? - what is the size of his Asian porn movie collection? - is he gay? - is somebody working on his biography? - when is he gonna rent a larger appartment? Patrice :-). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Club Foot? Date: 16 Jan 1997 10:23:09 -0800 (PST) hey now, i hope this is not too off-topic for this list. i hear that Club Foot Orchestra is planning to play at the Catro Theatre in San Francisco this saturday (1-18). does anyone have any details as to what they plan to do and when exactly it is to happen? i checked the SF Bay Guardian online, but their calendar doesn't mention the show. i understand that there will be an additional string section and vocalist in the roster for the show. hasta. --dk Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #49 Date: 16 Jan 1997 16:11:39 -0500 (EST) On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, John E. Young wrote: > > > himself as an outstanding composer. If your standard of playing is based > > > on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player. Many > > i've missed much of this thread, but this statement, in particular, seems > worth some debate. zorn doesn't spend his time playing "night in > tunisia" over and over (or any other bop chestnuts), but i'd challenge > anyone who's seen a masada show to name an alto player who tops him in > live performance in a bebop style. Well, as the original poster, I should probably clarify my point. By 'bebop', I meant specifically chord-based improvisation. In other words, I wasn't counting freebop. My impression is that Zorn has never played the changes, as it were, on record. (Disclaimer: I don't have the greatest ear for harmony, so I wouldn't be shocked if I were wrong. If someone can point to a place where Zorn does this, I'd really like to know about it.) If I'm right, he hasn't demonstrated his ability to meet this standard. I also gathered from the following Zorn quote from an interview with Francis Davis that Zorn couldn't play the changes: "You can spend your whole life, like Frisell has, learning to get inside the chords. I don't do it that way." (from Davis' _Bebop and Nothingness_, p. 189) If I'm understanding this quote correctly, Zorn is in fact a very poor player by this standard. As John Shiurba has pointed out, however, this is a pretty silly standard to apply to Zorn's playing, as it completely misses the point. > masada's tunes are based on jewish > music, but when they do the uptempo stuff, it's as close to bop as > any new music now being played. I'm not entirely sure how you're using the term 'new music' here. There are certainly plenty of young musicians still playing 50's-style hard bop, and some of them are even very good about it. If by 'new music' you mean stylistically new music, then I'd probably agree, but then the standard discussed above pretty much rules out any substantial innovation. > zorn's chops, harmonic inventiveness, > and melodic sense are on a par (in my experience of a few masada shows) > with anyone else these days on his instrument. i'd even venture > to say he tops everyone else (but that's only in my experience). I've only seen Masada once, but on that night, Zorn's playing was, in my opinion, weak relative to the three guys he was sharing the stage with. Admittedly, that's tough competition; Zorn was pretty good. But I don't think he was playing freebop on the level of, say, Joe Lovano, whom I'd seen a week earlier. Of course, Zorn may just have been having a slightly off night. In any case, I'm willing to bet that old masters like Ornette Coleman and Jackie McLean could still cut Zorn on a pretty regular basis. Don't get me wrong. I think Masada is a great band. They interact beautifully, and that's far more important than any individual's performance as a soloist. Furthermore, Zorn is a great saxophonist in other contexts (e.g. free improv, Painkiller, or even the less conventional bop-based News for Lulu trio). But as a freebop player, I'd say he's good, not great. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Club Foot? Date: 16 Jan 1997 21:36:46 -0700 SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote: > i hear that Club Foot Orchestra is > planning to play at the Catro Theatre in > San Francisco this saturday (1-18). does > anyone have any details as to what they > plan to do and when exactly it is to > happen? CFO is doing their newest film score, "The Hands Of Orlac" Fri-Mon at 8pm at the Castro. There may be other showtimes (?). People interested in the whole New York scene writing scores to silent films, should check out Club Foot's stuff. As they say, they did it first. -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wlt4@aol.com Subject: FAQ: "tzadik" Date: 17 Jan 1997 01:20:23 -0500 (EST) Is "tzadik" a Hebrew or Yiddish word? It's included in the book Joys of Yiddish but does anybody know if it was borrowed from Hebrew? Lang Thompson http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: xander@sirius.com Subject: Re: Club Foot? Date: 16 Jan 1997 22:35:51 -0800 >i hear that Club Foot Orchestra is >planning to play at the Catro Theatre in >San Francisco this saturday (1-18). does >anyone have any details as to what they >plan to do and when exactly it is to >happen? Strange. If it weren't for the fact that I had all my wisdom teeth out this afternoon, I would probably be hanging out with Beth Custer at a mutual friend's birthday party right at this moment. Anyway: From the Castro's calendar: Fri 17 - Mon 20: 8 pm daily: CFO perform their new score for the "Hands of Orlac" (Robert Weine, Austria, 1924) $10. Sun 19 - Mon 20 2pm daily: CFO do Buster Keaton's "Sherlock Jr" and a couple of shorts. $6 adults/$4 children. (Delightful and very sureal film and a delightful soundtrack for those who aren't already familiar with it). Alexander ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DANIEL BITTON Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please Date: 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) Not to mention the equally urgent: -what's with the tzitzis? -what's with the Abracadabra Tshirt (the one or The Big Gundown, and that he always wears) -does he have a closet full of them like Charlie Brown? -is there more that one in different shades of orange, or does it just fade with washings? -I saw him with a new pair of army pants, is that because the old ones disintegrated after 15 years of constant wear? -is it true that he's growing his hair so that he can look cool enough to be the new saxophonist for the Smashing Pumpkins? -why doesn't he ever wear a Green Day T-shirt? -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come back to Canada again? -Montreal is so damn hip. Why doesn't he ever play here? On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > Mike, > > You forgot the most important: > > - why do Zorn wear socks with different colors? > - how many army pants does he own? > - what is the size of his record collection (CD, LP, etc)? > - what is the size of his Asian porn movie collection? > - is he gay? > - is somebody working on his biography? > - when is he gonna rent a larger appartment? > > Patrice :-). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Schwartz Subject: folks who say Zorn can't play Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:33:43 -0500 (EST) I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight, not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting the harmonies of standard song forms. Anyway, just wanted to throw the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet album into this thread. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please Date: 17 Jan 1997 09:09:11 -0800 On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) DANIEL BITTON wrote: > > Not to mention the equally urgent: > -what's with the tzitzis? > -what's with the Abracadabra Tshirt (the one or The Big Gundown, > and that he always wears) > -does he have a closet full of them like Charlie Brown? > -is there more that one in different shades of orange, or does it > just fade with washings? > -I saw him with a new pair of army pants, is that because the old > ones disintegrated after 15 years of constant wear? > -is it true that he's growing his hair so that he can look cool > enough to be the new saxophonist for the Smashing Pumpkins? > -why doesn't he ever wear a Green Day T-shirt? > -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he > was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come > back to Canada again? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?). Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for the FAQ). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Allen Huotari" Subject: S Clark Mem 4Tet (Zorn can't play) Date: 17 Jan 1997 09:08:15 PST I find Jeff's posting below personally interesting in that several "hard bop" aficianados I know think that the only worthwhile things Zorn has ever recorded are the Lulus and Sonny Clark Memorial (and go on to express the opinion that Zorn SHOULD record more of this) while I don't dispute that some may despise Zorn's style or interpretations on the basis of these recordings, my own experience with "jazz purists" (whatever that might mean) is that they rather enjoy these discs so I guess my question to the group at large would be whether the opinions they've encountered with regard to Lulu or Sonny Clark are largely negative or positive ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Jeff Schwartz at smtpgate I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight, not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting the harmonies of standard song forms. Anyway, just wanted to throw the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet album into this thread. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DANIEL BITTON Subject: Re: FAQ: "tzadik" Date: 17 Jan 1997 12:50:37 -0500 (EST) Yup, borrowed from Hebrew, like a whole lot of Yiddish words. On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 Wlt4@aol.com wrote: > Is "tzadik" a Hebrew or Yiddish word? It's included in the book Joys of > Yiddish but does anybody know if it was borrowed from Hebrew? > > Lang Thompson > http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DANIEL BITTON Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please Date: 17 Jan 1997 12:53:20 -0500 (EST) On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) DANIEL BITTON wrote: > > -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he > > was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come > > back to Canada again? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with > France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about > his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?). > > Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for > the FAQ). > So tell us about it! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please Date: 17 Jan 1997 10:29:13 -0800 On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:53:20 -0500 (EST) DANIEL BITTON wrote: > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) DANIEL BITTON wrote: > > > -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he > > > was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come > > > back to Canada again? > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with > > France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about > > his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?). > > > > Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for > > the FAQ). > > > So tell us about it! The lineup was basically the following: John Zorn Arto Lindsay (Zorn and him barely talking to each other at that time, but the contract mentioning Lindsay, he had to be there) Bill Frisell William Winant (in the back, not really realizing what was happening) ??? (forgot what other musicians were there) 2 x female prostitutes from NYC (hired just before taking the plane for France!) There were many TV monitors on stage playing Asian porn movies (on the scatology side, to be more precise). The prostitutes were dressed as you might expect (very scanty and outrageous). Toward the end, one of them, equipped with a whip, started to whip Bill Frisell! At the end, one of them put a condom on a huge tubular microphone and ... did what you can imagine. The audience? Reacting to the videos, started to yell "Merde, merde, etc" (merde means shit). I did not see it but various reports coincide on this. Sounded like a lot of fun :-). Anyway, I guess everybody got pissed and it did not work so well. It was in 1991 (1992?) and Zorn decided not to go back to France. I also guess that French festival became more careful about their "creations" (which often exhibit an amazingly high ratio price over quality). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard Shih Subject: Re: folks who say Zorn can't play Date: 17 Jan 1997 13:49:17 -0500 (EST) On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Jeff Schwartz wrote: > I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark > Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight, > not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to > Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn > sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony > Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable > master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that > interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting > the harmonies of standard song forms. > Anyway, just wanted to throw the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet album into > this thread. I just got this album recently and I quite enjoyed the few times I listened to it. Granted I'm far from an expert on be-bop, or jazz in general. Does this make me a a mediocre listener? Howard Shih howards@m4dd.com Cybrarian/Assistant Programmer Meta 4 Digital Design Phone: 201-309-0005 Ext. 242 FAX: 201-309-0110 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: FAQ: "tzadik" Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:42:18 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, DANIEL BITTON wrote: > Yup, borrowed from Hebrew, like a whole lot of Yiddish words. since Yiddish is a combination of Hebrew and German, that's quite an understatement! hasta. (me? pendantic? naw!) Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Club Foot? Date: 17 Jan 1997 12:09:29 -0700 > Strange. If it weren't for the fact that I had all my wisdom teeth out > this afternoon, I would probably be hanging out with Beth Custer at a > mutual friend's birthday party right at this moment. as I understand it , Beth Custer left Club Foot Orch last year. Is she back in? -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: folks who say Zorn can't play Date: 17 Jan 1997 12:45:10 -0800 Jeff, On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:33:43 -0500 (EST) Jeff Schwartz wrote: > > I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark > Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight, > not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to > Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn > sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony > Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable > master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that > interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting > the harmonies of standard song forms. You also surprise me. I personally like a lot VOODOO and think they all play fairly well with a little something that does not make the record a pure rehash of the orginal. Now, from a purist bop perspective, does Zorn compete with the experts? I am not qualified to answer that question, whose answer, must I say, does not prevent me from sleeping well. But like I said before, when Zorn covers somebody, it is never a straight cover. Although VOODOO seems to me fairly close to the spirit of late '50s bop, there is a little something that is just not in the original, hence my appreciation for it. Ironically, jazz people on r.m.b. were very positive about the NEWS FOR LULU. I remember replying by saying how ironic it was to praise (and at last appre- ciate) Zorn for his less original record, although well played. I was surprised by the people who took the defense of Zorn :-). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alain Potvin Subject: Re: Zorn/Canada ? Date: 17 Jan 1997 16:58:05 -0500 At 09:09 17/01/97 -0800, you wrote: > >On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) DANIEL BITTON wrote: >> -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he >> was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come >> back to Canada again? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with >France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about >his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?). > > Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for > the FAQ). I saw Zorn (Masada) at Victoriaville in 95, it seem that he was pissed because he want to play unplugged. The organisation did'nt want that. So, they play plugged. The audience was too big to play unplugged (600 persons)... The show was great, on stage he was very happy. (Some of you probably have the recording of Radio-Canada) Musicians have always good words on Victoriaville festival. It was'nt is first visit at Victo (Naked City, Zorn/Frith 1988, Slan 199?,) . The problem with Canada is more large... I dont know why? If sometime Quebec become a country i hope he will come here. Ha! Ha! :) sorry for my poor english! Alain Potvin St-Felicien Quebec, Canada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gastarit@comm.net Subject: Re: folks who say Zorn can't play Date: 17 Jan 1997 19:32:44 -0600 On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote: > > Jeff, > > >You also surprise me. I personally like a lot VOODOO and think they all play >fairly well with a little something that does not make the record a pure >rehash of the orginal. > >Now, from a purist bop perspective, does Zorn compete with the experts? I >am not qualified to answer that question, whose answer, must I say, does >not prevent me from sleeping well. But like I said before, when Zorn covers >somebody, it is never a straight cover. Although VOODOO seems to me fairly >close to the spirit of late '50s bop, there is a little something that is >just not in the original, hence my appreciation for it. > >Ironically, jazz people on r.m.b. were very positive about the NEWS FOR LULU. >I remember replying by saying how ironic it was to praise (and at last appre- >ciate) Zorn for his less original record, although well played. I was >surprised by the people who took the defense of Zorn :-). > > Patrice. > > >Briefly, my take on this is that Zorn's fluid approach coupled with an unusual hodgepodge of phrasing techniques breath new life into an idiom that's been beaten to a dead horse. All the young lion mainstream folks with the slick productions and marketing backing have exploited post bop ad infinitum. It gets tiresome...therefore I've pretty much shut the door on buying young lion product, well for the most part. Zorn's cajoling is one thing but every now and then he demonstrates his mind boggling technique and overall attributes. I'd sure as hell rather listen to Zorn playing mainstream than most of the MOR shit that's getting all the publicty and recognition. Now this is my opinion...I mean after awhile all the Hargrove, Avery and Redman cd's start sounding alike. Personally, I dig these guys and appreciate their intentions but.... I like Hargrove's "Family" cd which showed some maturity and compositional integrity but when the young lion of the week starts popping up like weeds in concrete...well, I'll stop here.. Zorn is an innovator. He has great vision and remarkable dedication. He's focused and willing to take chances (needless to say). Personally, I don't like everything he's done but find his path inviting and extremely interesting. I recently picked up Filmworks VI. Ok, it's great but that 19 minute cut is a flat out bore and I selfishly wished he utilized cd space a tad better... glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Schwartz Subject: Voodoo Date: 17 Jan 1997 22:02:03 -0500 (EST) Sorry to have shocked anybody by bringing up Voodoo. I think it's a cool record. I was just trying to imagine how some bop head might hear it and find it inept rather than original, the same way a lot of reviewers dogged Braxton's In the Tradition. Like, I haven't seen any reviews saying Zorn can't play, but I've hardly seen any reviews in proportion to his prolific output. Last year Downbeat reviewed what? I saw one Masada CD review. It was very positive, but geez! One review. How are Cadence and Option? Option always has a ton of reviews, but they seem to have become more and more of a so-called alternative rock thang. Cadence used to have loads of reviews too and probably still do, but no store in town carries it (I need to subscribe!). Same deal with Bill Laswell-I never seem to see reviews of his dozens of projects. I guess small labels don't have much promotion money, but whenever I'm in L.A. I see lots of Axiom promos in used stores... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 17 Jan 1997 23:02:55 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-01-14 19:24:00 EST, proussel@ichips.intel.com (Patrice L. Roussel) writes: > > Saying someone plays and writes poorly, is just an opinion. These things > are > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I can tell you that if I try to play clarinet and somebody says that I play > poorly, this would not be an opinion at all, but just stating a (sad, but > nevertheless true) fact. It sounds to me like you are saying you CAN'T play the clarinet, and obviously you would think that you play poorly. So if I think "Joe Schmoe" is a good clarinet player, but you think he plays poorly, and maybe even he himself thinks he plays poorly, then is my original opinion that he plays well totally negated?? It sounds to me like you have already defined the parameters... of what is GOOD and what is BAD... and that there is no such thing as an opinion. I guess I just don't get it... maybe you should be a tad less cryptic with your posts. Please, tell me, what is an opinion, and how do I form one?? Jody McAllister IOUaLive1@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gastarit@comm.net Subject: Re: Voodoo Date: 17 Jan 1997 22:07:56 -0600 On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Jeff Schwartz wrote: >Sorry to have shocked anybody by bringing up Voodoo. I think it's a cool >record. I was just trying to imagine how some bop head might hear it and >find it inept rather than original, the same way a lot of reviewers dogged >Braxton's In the Tradition. >Like, I haven't seen any reviews saying Zorn can't play, but I've hardly >seen any reviews in proportion to his prolific output. Last year Downbeat >reviewed what? I saw one Masada CD review. It was very positive, but geez! >One review. How are Cadence and Option? Option always has a ton of >reviews, but they seem to have become more and more of a so-called >alternative rock thang. Cadence used to have loads of reviews too and >probably still do, but no store in town carries it (I need to subscribe!). >Same deal with Bill Laswell-I never seem to see reviews of his dozens of >projects. I guess small labels don't have much promotion money, but >whenever I'm in L.A. I see lots of Axiom promos in used stores... > > > > >Last Spring Downbeat reviewed several Laswell related projects... The ambient stuff faired well....e.g. Jonah Sharp/Laswell, Namlook/Laswell.. Sacred System..etc.. Arcana w/Derek Bailey and Tony Williams received 3 or 3 1/2 stars in Downbeat. Other than a few negative comments...Arcana was generally well recieved. Also, Pulse (Tower Records Rag) reviews Laswell related stuff from time to time... glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:37:01 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 IOUaLive1@aol.com wrote: > your posts. Please, tell me, what is an opinion, and how do I form one?? you're already there. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Voodoo Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:41:45 -0800 At 10:02 PM 1/17/97 -0500, Jeff Schwartz wrote: >whenever I'm in L.A. I see lots of Axiom promos in used stores... Probably sold by Polygram employees in LA. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "wesley@interaccess.com" Subject: Steve Beresford - Cue Sheets Date: 18 Jan 1997 00:20:16 -0600 (CST) Just a quick note to let everyone know how fantastic I think this record is. I just finished listening to it while I was reading my e-mail. It is part of the film series on Tzadik, and it's all over the map. The CD contains music from several movies and television shows, and it ranges from jazz to improv to cartoon music to more traditional film music to Masada-ish pieces to squealing pigs to a dance music song about stationary sung by a Luther Vandross type singer, as well as pieces that trancend or go beyond all these stupid catagories and just are :) Quite an enjoyable record. So, the question becomes - what else has Beresford done? I have the record on Avant upstairs but have not listened to it yet, but that will soon be rectified. So what else is there? Stationery moves me, Paul wesley@interaccess.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- GROOVE O(+> (the artist formerly known as Prince) <+)O ---------- e - m - a - n - c - i - p - a - t - i - o - n one nation The Exodus Has Concluded - Welcome 2 The Dawn ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Gnu Subject: Mr Bungle list? Date: 18 Jan 1997 12:52:57 -0500 (EST) Does anyone have the address for the Mr Bungle list? Thanks. Gary M. Gettier - gmg@ari.net | "Think for yourself and feel the walls | become sand beneath your feet." ! Don't Buy CDs at Wal-Mart ! | - Queensryche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Mills Subject: State of the Union Date: 18 Jan 1997 13:39:28 -0700 All -- i came across this two cd set, State of the Union, that was produced by Elliot Sharp and includes, among others, JZ, Marc Ribot, Frith, Yamatsuke Eye, Alan Ginsburg (!), Hakim Bey (!!), Henry Kaiser, A. Lindsay, ad nauseum (it has 147 tracks). The label is ATAVISTIC. What the hell is this thing? Greg Mills Copywriter ADVERTISING: The bastard offspring of Art and Commerce kill their parents and go watch roller derby. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 18 Jan 1997 13:35:27 -0800 Jody, On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:02:55 -0500 (EST) IOUaLive1@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-01-14 19:24:00 EST, proussel@ichips.intel.com (Patrice > L. Roussel) writes: > > > > Saying someone plays and writes poorly, is just an opinion. These things > > > are > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > I can tell you that if I try to play clarinet and somebody says that I > play > > poorly, this would not be an opinion at all, but just stating a (sad, but > > nevertheless true) fact. > > It sounds to me like you are saying you CAN'T play the clarinet, and > obviously you would think that you play poorly. That's exactly the situation. > So if I think "Joe Schmoe" is a good clarinet player, but you think he plays > poorly, and maybe even he himself thinks he plays poorly, then is my original > opinion that he plays well totally negated?? It is a little bit more complex. Some very good players think there are bad because instead of looking around them, they focus on the best players, and hence their judgement uses a different reference point. If you are very indulgent with yourself and compare your playing with somebody who does not even know what end of the instrument to put in his mouth, yes, I guess, you are a good player. But I am personally not interested by such "artists". In fact, buy a clarinet and spend a week working on it and I guarantee that you will be among the 100,000 best players in the world :-). Are you thinking about such case? If yes, we are definitely using a different threshold and reference point. > It sounds to me like you have already defined the parameters... of what is > GOOD and what is BAD... and that there is no such thing as an opinion. > I guess I just don't get it... maybe you should be a tad less cryptic with > your posts. Please, tell me, what is an opinion, and how do I form one?? I am not sure that I follow you but there is something I am sure of: I play clarinet very bad. Hence, the concept of playing bad is not an abstract one in the sense that the producer (me) even agrees with :-). Now, yes, I am sure I can find an indulgent and confused audience that will claim that I am a good player (for reasons I will gently not ellaborate on -- my mom thought that was a good player, even a girlfriend... but before we split :-)). Will it change the quality of my playing? Not for me, unfortunately. The fact that a technical skill can range continuously from bad to excellent and that putting the threshold for a binary decision (good versus bad) is subjective, should not lead to a philosophical position that good and bad are subjective attributes that should be removed from the dictionary. When there is enough evidence on a quantitative level (complete lack of elementary control of the instrument), we should not feel affraid of making a qualitative judgement. In fact, if you refuse to use the qualifier bad, it seems to me that it makes the other one (good) completely useless. Because I want to keep using the attribute "good", I cannot remove the other one. To use a parallel with a similar problem, the day hate will disappear from the world, I am affraid that there won't love left either. I personally use good and bad when dealing with "the tails" of the distribution for which regardless of where you put the threshold, you know if you are on the left (bad) or on the right (good). Of course, most of the interesting musicians are in the middle of the distribution where judgements can be very subjective. Now, as anybody can claim being an artist (no law prohibits it, right?). I could also decide tomorrow to make clarinet records. If a critic decides to say that my playing is awful, he will be right (and I will have respect for him). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: State of the Union Date: 18 Jan 1997 13:52:43 -0800 On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:39:28 -0700 Greg Mills wrote: > > i came across this two cd set, State of the Union, that was produced by > Elliot Sharp and includes, among others, JZ, Marc Ribot, Frith, Yamatsuke > Eye, Alan Ginsburg (!), Hakim Bey (!!), Henry Kaiser, A. Lindsay, ad > nauseum (it has 147 tracks). > > The label is ATAVISTIC. > > What the hell is this thing? This is an ongoing project. 1982 - Zoar Records (USA), ZOAR 10 (LP) 1992 - Arrest Records (USA), AR 003 (CD) 1993 - Muworks Records (USA), MUW 1016 CD (CD) 1996 - Atavistic (USA), ALP69CD (2xCD) It was a LP in 1982 with about 40 x 1mn tracks. Then it became a CD in 1992 with the same tracks (from the LP) plus about 40 more. Then, few months ago, it mutated to a 2xCD containing the 1992 CD plus 70 new tracks. The record is really an amazing sampler that most of the people on this list should check out. The CD pressing was a little bit annoying because of its lack of numbering, making it hard to know who plays what. This has been fixed on the 2xCD (specially great for people who know how to use the random selection). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 18 Jan 1997 20:53:09 -0500 (EST) Patrice, Originally, I said that wether or not someone thinks Zorn plays or writes poorly is something that is subjective, as opposed to someone calling him a fake. (Which I think can be validated, somewhat anyway) I wasnt talking about someone who had never played an instrument before, I was talking specifically about Zorn. I still think it is a matter of opinion, wether or not you think Zorn can or can't play (or write). And there are probably as many people out there who think he sucks, as think he is great. Hence-- subjectiveness. BUT, to say that he is a "fake", based solely on the premise that he can't play or write, is really ludicrous!! (And that was the original statement that started this thread.) If someone could say that Zorn ripped off a particular aspect of his sax playing from "Joe Saxman", and point that out somehow, by a reference, his point that Zorn is a fake would be valid. But so far, no one has been able to prove to me that Zorn is a fake. Thanks, Jody ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wlt4@aol.com Subject: Re: Steve Beresford - Cue Sheets Date: 18 Jan 1997 22:59:43 -0500 (EST) Beresford released last Fall "Fish of the Week" (Scatter UK) which also features Alexander Balanescu, John Butcher and Clive Bell among others. Quite rowdy & interesting improvs. Lang Thompson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: xander@sirius.com Subject: Re: Steve Beresford - Cue Sheets Date: 18 Jan 1997 23:47:03 -0800 Picked up cue sheets about a week ago myself and I'm quite pleased with it too. Don't really care for the style of the lyrical piece, but as always, Andrew Brenner's lyrics are great. Actually, I have never heard AB stuff outside of records with Beresford. Does anyone know if Brenner has any other outlets for his lyrics. You can't do much better than a guy who likens cynicism to "living with ants in your anus, or refusing to swallow your flegm". Yes, I do love "Signals for Tea" on Avant almost as much as I love the Misha Mengelberg disc on Avant, so now you know where I'm coming from. Beresford has done a ton of other stuff, some of it quite silly (and in my opinion only occassionally effective) like the couple of 10" records that I used to have by him on Chabada: "L'Extraordinaire Jardin de Charles Trenet" and the one about Doris Day (can't remember the exact title). Both of these had one song apiece which I really liked and where otherwise mediocre. SB has also done plenty of improv oriented stuff like The Bath of Surprise" on Piano Records which is pretty cool and playful. There was also a record with Tristan Honsinger from 1980 which was just too dificult for me (and which I'm pretty sure is still in my box full of sale records, not that anyone would be interested). But by far my favorite Beresford record was the old General Strike cassette on Touch (about '84, but recently reissued on CD, though I haven't seen it yet). A collaboration with David Toop and David Cunningham, this is dub heavy tinkertoy stuff, very musical with a several Sun Ra covers and quite a few guests like Lol Coxhill. Alexander ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 19 Jan 1997 12:40:14 -0800 On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:53:09 -0500 (EST) IOUaLive1@aol.com wrote: > > Patrice, > > Originally, I said that wether or not someone thinks Zorn plays or writes ^^^^^^^^^^^ Your statement was more general than that. As usual with Internet, we know what we write but not always phrase it in such a way that our thinking get accurately set (it would take hours and multiple checking to be sure that what we write exactly conveys what we think), hence everlasting threads like this one. I reacted to the general statement, not to the statement applied to Zorn. On the Zorn issue we agree totally. > poorly is something that is subjective, as opposed to someone calling him a > fake. (Which I think can be validated, somewhat anyway) I wasnt talking > about someone who had never played an instrument before, I was talking > specifically about Zorn. > > I still think it is a matter of opinion, wether or not you think Zorn can or > can't play (or write). And there are probably as many people out there who > think he sucks, as think he is great. Hence-- subjectiveness. BUT, to say > that he is a "fake", based solely on the premise that he can't play or write, > is really ludicrous!! (And that was the original statement that started this > thread.) If someone could say that Zorn ripped off a particular aspect of > his sax playing from "Joe Saxman", and point that out somehow, by a > reference, his point that Zorn is a fake would be valid. > > But so far, no one has been able to prove to me that Zorn is a fake. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And fortunately :-). And if this was possible, I doubt that this list would be the good one. Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: Tim Berne Date: 19 Jan 1997 18:25:45 -0500 To Zorn fans of taste I have no connection to Tim Berne in any way, but I'd like everyone to know about his excellent 3 CD package of live recordings from 1996. These were recorded in March and April in Germany, and feature Bloodcount. Berne on alto and baritone, Chris Speed tenor and clarinet, Mike Formanek bass, and Jim Black drums. His earlier live Paris recordings on JMT included Marc Ducret on guitar, but he is not present here. Too bad, though I think his absence inspired Berne, whom I believe has never sounded this good. Speed, Black, and Berne should be familiar to JZ folks. Black really stands out on every piece. As usual with Berne, the band stretches out; there's over 200 minutes of music, but only eight tunes. Get it before it's gone. It is a Screwgun Records release, 104 St. Marks Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11217 $32 including shipping. Thanks Tim! Alan E Kayser aek1@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Benton Subject: OrkestRova Date: 19 Jan 1997 23:23:34 -0600 (CST) I found this on another mailing list, thought there might be some interest here. I certainly hope someone makes it down to this and comes back with a report, there's a small ice cube in hell chance I might be in SF this weekend, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Oh well, enjoy everybody: Rova Saxophone Quartet presents OrkestRova music for electric big band February 15, 1997 9:00 p.m. Slim's 333 11th Street with Henry Kaiser, Mike Patton, Trevor Dunn, John Schott, Lisle Ellis, William Winant, Scott Amendola, Jon Raskin, Bruce Ackley, Steve Adams, and Larry Ochs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIRD BRAIN Subject: Trio Fungus Date: 20 Jan 1997 09:14:22 -0500 Just thought I'd make a shameless plug for a buddy of mine. For those who live here in the Denver area - you should check out the group Trio Fungus. They're playing this Wednesday the 22nd at bar called Seven South, located at 7 South Broadway. The band consists of the following: Brett Sexton - alto sax (you'll definately hear the Ornette influence) Tom Sublette - electric bass (I've never heard a better e. bassist in this town) Tim ? - guitar (this dude can lay it down) Matt Homan - drums (another excellent musician) These guys keep getting better every time I hear them. You really shouldn't miss it. They usually start at 9 o'clock and hey, there's no cover! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DANIEL BITTON Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 20 Jan 1997 12:41:06 -0500 (EST) Just listen to Masada, him and Douglas are dancing in and out of eachother, the melodic ideas (and squawks) are fresh and well executed and it's full of boppy licks, the jack knows his sack. As for the guy who said he was the least impressive Masadite in concert, he was probably tired or something, I saw him in Burlington kind of taking it easy and giving Joey all the solos. In Victoriaville the man was holy like Rebbe Schneerson. Cosmojizzmatic. Probly the best show I ever saw. Someone said there was a Radio Canada tape of it? How do I get it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Frith and early NYC downtown scene Date: 20 Jan 1997 12:37:33 -0800 Somebody asked a few weeks ago about Frith and the NYC scene. Following is an article Frith wrote for the late MUSICS. It might be one of the very first testimonies on the scene we are covering on this list. Hope you enjoy, Patrice. From MUSICS, No.23, November 1979 2000 STATUES AND ZU MINI-STATUES, by Fred Frith New York, 5-9 June, 1979. The Zu-place -- 3 small lofts and a basement full of junk in W.24th St. On the top floor Giorgio Gomelski is picking up the pieces in the final stages of a 34-date tour by GONG, MOTHER GONG, YOCH'KO SEFFER and the ZU BAND; economically disastrous and unthinkably chaotic, but nonetheless the first attempt to bring 'European' rock music to America on a co-ordinated 'alternative' basis and as such worthy of admiration. Actually he is asleep and remains so throughout most of the day. On the middle floor his deprived dog stalks around, no doubt contemplating the final solution. Below, a large orchestra of improvisors, assembled by guitarist Eugene Chadbourne to play two of his pieces and one by reed-player John Zorn, limber up for the first time. The Orchestra consists of some students and alumni of Karl Berger's Creative Music Studio in Woodstock -- 'cellist Tom Cora, Chuck ver Stracton (trombone) and Mark Kramer (trombone and organ) -- plus Bob Ostertag (synthesizer) and Jim Katzin (violin) of Fall Mountain, Evan Gallagher, a percussionist from Mississippi, Davey Williams (guitar, banjo, mandolin) and LaDonna Smith (viola) from Alabama, John Zorn and Polly Bradfield (violin), Andrea Centazzo (drums), Toshinori Kondo and Lesli Dalaba (trumpet), Wayne Horvitz (piano and double bass), Mark Miller (percussion), myself, Steve Beresford and Chadbourne, presiding with his usual manic enthusiasm, jovial insults and energetic vagueness. The excitement in the air verges at times towards the atmosphere of a Boys Brigade Summer Camp. The Schedule is 4 days rehearsal, with 3 concerts in the evenings at ZU. These will consist of small groups and solos in which nearly all the orchestra members are featured (why not all?). Finally a day in a recording studio to put down Eugene's 'English Channel', and a concert at Columbia University of the fruits of our work. Rehearsals The Three Pieces: The English Channel. The players are numbered. The score consists of boxes with appropriate numbers in them. The boxes themselves are numbered and one proceeds in a relatively orderly fashion from box to box until the end of the piece, which is in 3 sections. Contained in this structure are solos of almost everyone, some seen as final events in a box, others as whole boxes. It's difficult to make out if there is supposed to be a quantitative or qualitative difference between these two types of solo, but it's scarcely important. The only other written instructions are directions as to which instrument to play (for those with more than one) and hints as to ambience -- 'Texas Chain Massacre', 'I Walk The Line', 'An imitation of Anthony Braxton', 'Swing', 'R & B Trades', 'Noodling', etc. There are 3 more or less set pieces -- a fragment of West Coast jazz, a loony calypso entitled 'I am the Dentist' which Eugene sings inaudibly into a contact microphone, and the inevitable Disco section. Oh yes, and an Incus Records takeoff. In the last 'movement', the idea is that a melody line moves around from instrument to instrument, but a melody line generated spontaneously by the musicians themselves. When the piece was performed by an orchestra of students at Woodstock, this was apparently very successful; here it remains unclear and Eugene decides to cut it from both the record and the concert. There are some inevitable contradictions at work, especially the old favorite of the composer saying that fundamentally he'd like us to do what we want in the improvised sections, only later to reveal that he has quite specific ideas about what it should sound like. Why not write them down? Attempts to discuss this and related issues during and after rehearsals were generally unsuccessful. A popular response was to questions about structure and improvisation seems to be 'This is the way I work'. Frustrating. The most helpful description of the piece for me was when Eugene said that what he was really after was for it to sound like him if he happened to be an orchestra. As such, it sounds pretty good in the end. Psychology This appears to be based on the idea of strip comics, and presents words or phrases for players to interpret freely, like 'plumbing', 'Miami', 'domesticity', 'Only one-horrible!', 'escape', 'dressing-up'. The orchestra is divided into 3 simultaneously unravelling strands, a Song Band, the Brass Section and Andrea Centazzo (Everything Italian). For me, this piece contained both too many instructions and too few. I mean I'd rather have had more specific things to do as in 'Stripsody' or just completely improvised a strip comic, which I've also seen done successfully. Anyway, we got bogged down and Eugene withdrew the piece after one rehearsal. Archery (John Zorn) 'Archery' is a complex set of instructions with a tendency towards the mathematical. We only barely had time to rehearse it with any degree of success, and it would take several performances for it to achieve any real coherence in my opinion. Players are identified by their initials. The 3 basic strands of the piece are clock events, duos-and-trios and solos. Every time the clock reaches zero, any number of players can 'improvise', in however sparse or dense a manner they please, for up to 60 seconds (in practice, it was usually between 5 and 20). These events take place during the first and last thirds of the piece, but not the middle third. Duos-and-trios occur in order, by sections. The sections are labelled A to O and each is divided into 14 sub-sections (O has 12). Each sub-section corresponds to a specific duo or trio combination from the Orchestra. The duos-and-trios proceed in strict consequence, but they can overlap and be of any duration (in practice, mostly pretty short). They can also consist of, or end with 'fixed points' or 'help points'. Solos can be taken up at any moment in the piece, but only one at a time -- the soloist stands up or indicates to the 'prompter' that s/he is taking a solo. That's the basic structure; there's a lot more, to do with 'divisi' -- other sections of 'clock events' (variously timed free sections), or other duos-and-trios, or events which divide the orchestra into different equal numbers of musicians who then improvise as a sequence of soloists (one at a time, each cuing the next). These 'divisi' are cued to the 'prompter' by specific players holding up cards; they override the basic structure (Archery), which has to stop at the next clock-zero to allow the cued section to happen; they are in turn overridden by any breaking of the rules (but in practice usually by a soloist standing up to signal a return to 'Archery' which happens, in theory, at once). Since durations of duos-and-trios, cues of divisi, solos and choice of whether or not to play 'clock events' are all in the hands of the musicians, there are inevitable struggles; we only begin to touch on the possibilities. During rehearsals there's a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that this could be a lot more fun to play than to listen to; plus incomprehension at some of the claims John makes for his piece in his notes to us on improvisation. Can it be said, for example, that this piece constitutes 'an analysis of an improvisation' anymore that an improvisation constitutes an analysis of an improvisation? And shouldn't any improvised piece require the same alertness and care in making choices as we were required to exercise in 'Archery'? The rehearsals are good-humoured but concentrated, intense; they have to be to enable us to play the thing at all. I think this concentration has a tangible effect on the concerts at Zu -- I've seldom seen such consistently good, diverse, surprising improvised music as there was over those three nights. It was as if we all felt the constraints of the days lifted, a sense of release. The concerts I can't review the Zu concerts properly; it would be difficult as I was involved to some extent each night, and not having intended to write all this, I didn't make notes. However, I'll try and pick out some details. For example, the solo performance by John Zorn. He used silence effectively and often, but it was not one of those tense, cerebral affairs. The tension has its element of wit, the technique, rather than hingeing on simultaneity of sound was linear, consisting of a rapid succession of quite different timbres and variations of dynamics, crammed into short moment's and interspersed with pauses, shuffling noises, quick changes from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. Rivetting. I also really liked Davey Williams and LaDonna Smith's duo. They've reached a rare degree of telepathy and manage to be fiery without being aggressive, delicate without being ephemeral. LaDonna also manages beautifully to suggest the tension between the degree to which she is in command of her instrument and the degree to which it wilfully carries her off to some other planet. Polly Bradfield's solo playing was quite different -- harder, less lyrical and treading a tightrope between controlled and contrived. I thought she had a lot of bottle actually, because she's chosen a difficult path; her playing is austere and uncompromising, a little stiff; she takes chances; her use of silence is similar to John Zorn's, though her humour's dryer (it's there though). After she'd played I felt mentally excited but earthbound. Chadbourne, Centazzo and Kondo cropped up together and in various combinations with those already mentioned at Zu. The three of them fit together in my mind, seem to represent a particular side of what was going on, inseparable from each other. Chadbourne and Centazzo in particular rest in my memory of that week as a kind of joint venture in bad taste, colossal and hilarious, refined in the former case and crude in the latter, energetically imposing their obsessive and quite singular ideas on whatever context they found themselves in, playing jokes and insulting at least each other and simultaneously carrying the music headlong and head-on. Kondo perfectly suited their schemes in his sensitive, extrovert way and managed to hold the balance, preventing them from ever sinking into meaningless jive by his timing and talent, while appearing on the contrary to encourage their excesses. His performances were real tours de force. The sextet with these three, Zorn, Bradfield and Tom Cora was particularly good I thought. Steve Beresford sat in with various groups. I like his playing very much when it's in shord burst like that, it becomes more concentrated and he doesn't have so much opportunity to get bored, an important factor in his longer concerts I always think. In the recording and at the final concert he played two great piano solos which gave me as much pleasure as anything that happened during the rest of the week. Bob Ostertag is the first synthesizer player I've heard (Sun Ra always excepted) with any kind of an interesting approach to the instrument. He derives a lot of his raw material from the radio, and is careful and discriminating. (It's clear that in remembering the concerts I've concentrated pretty much on personalities; but that's because for me, the concerts came across more sharply on that level than any other. Or is it a function of my memory? Of not having made notes about precise musical occurences at the time?) The recording A very strange experience, engineered with great skill in a small professional studio by the genial Les Paul Jnr. A whole album in a day, with a 17 piece band; problems like the brass sitting next to the strings in the same room, acoustic and electric guitars playing at the same time, three percussionists... the mixing was never likely to be anything less than erratic, but Les did a remarkable job. Eugene entered into his mad genius persona ("That's really awful -- fantastic!"), pressing on in the face of our murmuring voices wanting to do things again. In the end there were no 2nd takes of anything at all. It probably wouldn't have made much difference under the circumstances. Lesli Dalaba played two fined trumpet solos, quiet, slow, subtle, sure; in fact all the solos went much better than the ensemble improvisations, which was entirely predictable as a lot of us couldn't hear what half of us were doing! On leaving the studio I inadvertently broke a door. It cost us $100. I could have mended it myself for 2... The concert Eugene's piece in the first half, John's in the second. On the way to the theatre Tom Cora and I walk out of the subway and find ourselves in the middle of Harlem. A mistake. Thirty seconds of another world. We are firmly directed into the subway again by an amused local. 100 people in the audiences (it is a 1000 seater). There's a week-long festival of new music downtown, pretentiously packaged and extensively covered in the press, which has no doubt diverted many of the potentially curious. It's hard not to be inhibited by the structure of the music. We have fun, there are stirring moments, but the contrast with the energy of the first night and now is clear. It never quite takes off. Eugene's piece seems entertaining but lightweight. Is this a criticism? What most strikes me about John's magnum opus in its 1 1/4 hour performance is on the one hand the importance of the visual element, constant patterns of hand-gestures, holding-up of cards, eye-contact, concentration on the clock; and on the other, the degree to which the bones of the game dominate the flesh, players hurrying to exercise control, to counteract each others' cues, with little apparent thought as to the intended effect, what it will sound like. Not that that mattered -- in fact it led to a few moments of hair-line humour when the prompter found himself desperately juggling pieces of card and paper while simultaneously trying to keep an eye on the clock, to the accompaniment of a strained and puzzled silence from the musicians and giggles from the audience. I enjoyed that bit! By the end, when we all tiring, I felt that there was a tendency to respond to cues by making a noise, any noise, just to fulfil our obligations to the score on a minimal level, to bring it to a close. It was as if we were trapped inside the piece with a long slog ahead to get out of it. This was an obvious drawback, though a surmountable one -- provisions for ending could be much clearer. I'm looking forward to hearing the tape. Reactions varied. A critic friend found it over-weight, old-fashioned and boring but enjoyed individual performances. Others thought it visually compelling, often startling to listen to, but much too long. It needs to be played some more. I can't make up my mind, not only about the piece but about the philosophy of this approach to improvising. Should we merely be 'open' to all different kinds of improvisation, or should we at least develop some kind of critique to discover what processes are at work and to discuss them? Is this imposition of structure an anachronism? A contradiction in terms? Are restrictions placed on improvisors legitimate means to specific ends or are they just interfering with a richer creative process? Does free improvisation relate to anarchy in the same way that structured improvisation relates, say, to democracy? These are other questions... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: Ruins Date: 20 Jan 1997 15:56:00 PST Hey folks, I recently bought the Ruins CD "Hyderomastgroningem". Well, I when I opened the CD case I noticed that the CD was not placed in the "holder" correctly (which happens in manufacturing fairly often). Well, much to my suprise when I took the CD out of the case I realized that it wasn't in the holder because there was another CD there. Unfortunately it was not a second disc of different music, the manufacturing machine must have accidentally put a second copy of the CD in there. Did this happen to anyone else or am I just lucky? I guess this makes up for the times where I bought a CD to find out it wasn't in there, or the wrong CD was in there, or the music on the CD was different than what was printed (all of these have happened to me at least once). I guess my point is, anyone want to buy or trade for a copy of "Hyderomastgroningem"? (no cover, obviously - but I'll be nice and supply a jewel case). Fantastic disc, highly reccomended. Matt Walsh mattw@smginc.com Currently annoying co-workers with: Anthrophobia - "Framework" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: Voodoo Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:46:03 -0500 >Sorry to have shocked anybody by bringing up Voodoo. I think it's a cool >record. I was just trying to imagine how some bop head might hear it and >find it inept rather than original, the same way a lot of reviewers dogged >Braxton's In the Tradition. I had a very trad bop friend back in San Antonio during my college radio years... his tastes were very Phil Woods / Richie Cole, but when I played him "Voodoo" he really dug it. Thought Zorn sounded a lot like Rahsaan Roland Kirk, actually... >Like, I haven't seen any reviews saying Zorn can't play, but I've hardly >seen any reviews in proportion to his prolific output. Probably more to do with Zorn's no-promos policy than reviewers not wanting to write something about his stuff. What few reviews did get out tended to happen because Sphere Marketing overruled Zorn's wishes and sent out a few promos. Harmonia Mundi UK must do the same thing because The Wire always has reviews of current Zorn releases on DIW, Avant and Tzadik. And I can't tell you how many people used to call me to get Tzadik stuff when I was at Koch (some even resorted to buying it at reviewer's price). Steve Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DANIEL BITTON Subject: Zorn promo ixnays Date: 20 Jan 1997 18:16:12 -0500 (EST) What's his rationale behind not sending out promos? > > Probably more to do with Zorn's no-promos policy than reviewers not wanting > to write something about his stuff. What few reviews did get out tended to > happen because Sphere Marketing overruled Zorn's wishes and sent out a few > promos. Harmonia Mundi UK must do the same thing because The Wire always > has reviews of current Zorn releases on DIW, Avant and Tzadik. And I can't > tell you how many people used to call me to get Tzadik stuff when I was at > Koch (some even resorted to buying it at reviewer's price). > > Steve > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Steve Smith > Public Relations Manager > Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works > 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 > ssmith@knittingfactory.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: zorn reviews Date: 20 Jan 1997 21:03:02 -0500 Steve Smith wrote: > > >Sorry to have shocked anybody by bringing up Voodoo. I think it's a cool > >record. I was just trying to imagine how some bop head might hear it and > >find it inept rather than original, the same way a lot of reviewers dogged > >Braxton's In the Tradition. > > I had a very trad bop friend back in San Antonio during my college radio > years... his tastes were very Phil Woods / Richie Cole, but when I played > him "Voodoo" he really dug it. Thought Zorn sounded a lot like Rahsaan > Roland Kirk, actually... > > >Like, I haven't seen any reviews saying Zorn can't play, but I've hardly > >seen any reviews in proportion to his prolific output. > > Probably more to do with Zorn's no-promos policy than reviewers not wanting > to write something about his stuff. What few reviews did get out tended to > happen because Sphere Marketing overruled Zorn's wishes and sent out a few > promos. Harmonia Mundi UK must do the same thing because The Wire always > has reviews of current Zorn releases on DIW, Avant and Tzadik. And I can't > tell you how many people used to call me to get Tzadik stuff when I was at > Koch (some even resorted to buying it at reviewer's price). > > Steve > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Steve Smith > Public Relations Manager > Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works > 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 > ssmith@knittingfactory.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------Steve Cadence has also done Zorn reviews, though as far as I can recall they were only of his hatArt releases. I have two of them, one being Cobra, the other More News... August 1991: Cadence reviews tend to be a bit self-inflated, so it is not surprising to read "Pretension does however, rear its ugly head here on the silly balladeering which concludes the 'live' version, the utterly stupid vocals of 'Scherzo' and the heavy-handed use of cliches and quotes..." At the same time "...certain textures throughout the overly long realizations are beautifully sustained and even developed." A rather schizo review, but at least it IS a review. Of course, at the time Cadence was the American importer of hatArt from Switzerland, and still is I believe. August 1992: "At first glance, More... is a bit of a disappointment. ...it contains only two new pieces...What's impressive about More...is that these tracks sport a 'live'quality that eclipses the earlier versions track for track." Disappointed by a glance and impressed by the music. Huh? This type of reviewing I'm sure JZ and the rest of us can do without. I also recall that Downbeat has reviewed quite a few of JZs CDs, and most of them favorably. Since I have a rather large stack of them, it's not easy to locate a particular review. The Penguin guide, which uses a four star system, gives four to almost all JZ right up until 1990. They also call "Gundown" an essential record, and award it a special rosetta which is reserved for best of the best. I don't have the recently released new guide, so Masada is not reviewed. I would think since "Spy" gets four that Masada ditto. By the way, thanks for the tip and address on Tim Berne's 3CD set of Bloodcount. Got it, it's great. Alan E Kayser ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: Cadence and other reviewers Date: 20 Jan 1997 22:48:28 -0500 (EST) >On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Jeff Schwartz wrote: > >How are Cadence and Option? > Cadence doesn't review much Zorn-related material, although one of their reviewers rated Feldman's Music for Violin Alone on Tzadik and Dave Douglas' Constellations among the best of last year. Chris Cutler's p53 got a so-so review in a recent issue (a piece that I like), and their review of the Knitting Factory Cobra (which I haven't heard, but I love both the Hat and Avant versions) was downright unfavorable (seeking other opinions on how the KF version fares next to these others, since it is still widely available). However, in fairness to Cadence, they review more really obscure (and difficult) jazz than I've ever seen in one place, and I wonder sometimes how close Zorn's music is to anything that might fairly be called 'jazz' (although it is definitely 'creative' and 'improvised', two of the other words in Cadence's banner). I know of no other easy source for information and music on labels like BVHaast, Maya, Okka, FMP, etc. Certainly News for Lulu falls within the 'jazz' boundary, and I might not contest Masada (the recent Bar Kokhba set throws a wrench in these works' easy jazz classification) or Spy vs. Spy, but Naked City and the film music almost certainly don't, and the game and other composed pieces seem in a world of their own which I relate more to contemporary classical (like Stockhausen, Cage, and their offspring) than to jazz. Some of the supplementary material I've read puts Zorn in the avant-garde tradition, which I see as a deliberate blurring of these kind of boundaries and a willing embrace of all of them, plus whatever might be offensive and shocking to people who really care about these distinctions. I can't fault Cadence for not reviewing Zorn's stuff more, since they aren't making any attempt to be commercial and in fact have overall very high musical standards, and since their audience only has a slight overlap with Zorn's. I agree completely with the comments on Option. I used to look forward so much to getting the next issue in the mail, and now there's maybe one article per year that holds any interest. I shouldn't have renewed my subscription -- they aren't worth it any more. The Wire of course reviews Zorn often and very favorably. And I saw my first (and I think only) review of Kristallnacht in Wired (yes, the multi-font hiphiphip computer monthly), where they raved so much about it that I picked up a copy on Eva before they went under. On now: Zorn, Redbird -- Caleb T. Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com ;; For every complex question there is a simple answer. ;; And it is wrong. (H. L. Mencken) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wlt4@aol.com Subject: Re: zorn reviews Date: 20 Jan 1997 23:15:25 -0500 (EST) I've reviewed several Zorn albums, but have bought all of those except for "Harras" which Sphere or whoever's doing Avant must have sent to Option. (The most recent are Masada Chamber Ensemble for CD Review and the two new Filmworks for Goldmine; i'll post them if anybody's interested.) Sending out review copies is something of a bind for indie labels: it costs money that they can't really spare (i've heard that publicists consider a 10 percent rate of reviews to be a strong response) but without doing that, they won't get as many reviews. It's not just that some magazines will only review albums sent to them but a reviewer may not even know about the album until too late to cover it. Zorn is more or less a known quantity and in my case i would have bought the albums anyway. But there are plenty of others--such as, say, Prima Materia, Ned Rothenberg, Joe Morris--that i would never have written about if i'd waited until months later, read some other reviews and finally bought a copy. (On the other hand, i'd never heard Elton Dean before but loved the album that Cuneiform released and still couldn't interest any of four publications in it. So much for the power of critics.) Which is a kind of roundabout way of explaining why most Zorn reviews seem to be fairly positive (though Scott Yanow's review of the Knitting Factory Cobra album in Cadence was resoundingly negative). But there seem to be an unusually high number of people on this list with some connections to the music business so this is undoubtedly all old news. Lang Thompson http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wlt4@aol.com Subject: Re: Cadence and other reviewers Date: 21 Jan 1997 00:20:35 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-01-20 23:13:25 EST, cdeupree@erinet.com (Caleb Deupree) writes: << And I saw my first (and I think only) review of Kristallnacht in Wired (yes, the multi-font hiphiphip computer monthly), where they raved so much about it that I picked up a copy on Eva before they went under. >> Greil Marcus gave it a favorable mention (paragraph-long rather than a full review) in Artforum when it first came out. Lang Thompson http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Cobra comparisons Date: 21 Jan 1997 00:09:53 -0500 (EST) On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Caleb Deupree wrote of _Cadence_: > their review of the > Knitting Factory Cobra (which I haven't heard, but I love both the Hat and > Avant versions) was downright unfavorable (seeking other opinions on how the > KF version fares next to these others, since it is still widely available). The KF version has some nice bits (I especially like the all-vocal version, which starts off with "The world is everything that is the case"; absolutely hysterical for a philosopher), but it's by far the weakest of the three. The sound quality is shaky on some tracks, but more importantly, because the tracks are brief snippets of longer performances, you get no sense of largescale structure. Both the Hat and Avant recordings are excellent. People on this list are likely to be more familiar with the players on the Hat version, and that may be reason enough to go for that one (if you can find it); it's interesting to hear familiar musicians adapting their playing to Zorn's structure. Personally, I'd give a slight edge to the Avant version, the playing on which strikes me as slightly more consistent, but that might just be the novelty factor. (I've listened to the Hat version many, many times.) Is the Avant disc out of print, or just languishing in distribution hell? Chris Hamilton chhst9@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fenechd@charon.stm.com (David FENECH) Subject: Re: Tom Cora 's Roof Date: 21 Jan 1997 13:52:45 +0100 > From: onvt@micronet.fr (NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier) > > > Tom Cora : as usual, excellent. He said to me that now, he > lives in France (in Marseille) and is married with a French singer. > Yes , he now lives with Catherine JAUNIAUX and their adoptive kid in Marseille (south of France). This is where he met Hakim HAMADOUCHE. Hakim is an "oud" (arabian luth) player from Marseille also. They both did a gig in Villeurbanne (near Lyon, France) recently, and many of my friends went there and all claimed it was absolutely fantastic. Tom also plays with guys from my city (Grenoble, France) called Metamkine. He plays cello and electronics, while Jerome Noetinger plays tapes and electronics, and two other guys project images using reflecting mirrors. They improvise images and music together. This is quite different from the work he did with the Dziga VERTOV movie "The man with the camera". Tom has also played last year with Cathy JAUNIAUX in a group called "Les scratcheurs de vynil" based on vynil scratch. There was Christian MARCLAY and Otomo YOSHIHIDE in this band as well as local scratchers from Marseille (including the now quite famous ERIC M.). They played at the "Friche de la belle de Mai" (Marseille) and at the MIMI festival (Arles) last year. A record is under press I guess ... That's all for today . Bye david FENECH P.S : an excellent & exhaustive article on TZADIK in the new "Revue & Corrigée" (a french magazine in which I write quaterly). Please contact me for further details... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: andy.marks@mts.com Subject: Next batch of Tzadik releases Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:47:32 What's the poop on the next batch of Tzadik releases? It seems like its getting close to time for another batch to be released, but the web page hasn't been updated in a while. Anybody know any specifics? E-mail: andy.marks@mts.com Time: 8:47:32 AM Buckethead was raised in the chicken coop by chickens. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Pleshar Subject: Re: Cadence and other reviewers Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:22:43 -0600 (CST) At 10:48 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Caleb Deupree wrote: > >>On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Jeff Schwartz wrote: >> >>How are Cadence and Option? >> > >Cadence doesn't review much Zorn-related material, although one of their >reviewers rated Feldman's Music for Violin Alone on Tzadik and Dave Douglas' >Constellations among the best of last year. The main reason that Cadence doesn't review much Zorn-related material is that he doesn't send them (or anyone else) any copies of Tzadik or Avant releases for review. I don't think the Knitting Factory Cobra record is very good. It's mostly excerpts, so you don't really get the feeling(s) of the whole piece. Ralph ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schneide@augsburg.edu (Eric Schneider) Subject: book of heads Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:27:24 -0600 Can anyone provide any info/insight about "The Book of Heads," the Zorn composition performed by Marc Ribot? I'm thinking of getting it for a friend who is somewhat familiar with Zorn and really loves Frisell's playing. I'm familiar with Ribot's more rock-oriented playing (for Tom Waits, Maria McKee,etc.) but was wondering what his more experimental jazz work sounds like. Thanks. - Eric Schneider ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: Cobra comparisons Date: 21 Jan 1997 10:29:10 -0500 >Is the Avant disc out of print, or just languishing in >distribution hell? The latter, for the moment. Avant will be distributed by Koch International starting in March. This should increase availability... expect to see things in Borders now... but probably won't bring the price down much, alas. Steve Smith ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dennis summers Subject: Frith article. Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:41:51 -0700 (MST) Thank-you Patrice for sharing that article with us. I found it extraordinarily interesting, both in an historical sense, and how many of the issues raised still seem so contemporary. Also to all of you who may have noticed my conspicuous absence from the Zorn -a fake thread, which I strarted, I'm sorry to say that I've had major computer headaches over the last couple of weeks, including losing emial, and worse. Anyway, I found the interchange exciting, and exactly what I was looking for. My own take is that he always knows what he's doing, and if he's not the finest Bop player out there, that's really beside the point. Using bop as the standard would be like using trad-jazz as the standard for bop players. Also love Steve Beresford. I only have Tea, Cue Sheets, and I just picked up that Doris Day disk (in fact at the store where I got into the Zorn discussion, the proprietor, who hates Zorn, loves Beresford). Only listened to it once though, it seemed less "odd" than the other efforts and suffers because of it, I think. Anybody have a Beresford discography? (Patrice?). Couldn't agree more with the guy who wrote about the "young lions". I too am sick of all the press they get, and find the whole thing to be part of a very bad trend in current Jazz. When you start to prize to the past, you've taken the first step into the grave. Thanx for the reminder on the Tim Berne set I just dropped an order in the mail. yours in Zornocity --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Tzadik Festival 97 Date: 21 Jan 1997 13:37:55 -0500 (EST) Okay, does anyone have or know where i can find a COPMPLETE list of zorn/zorn-related shows in europe? My friend studying in Copenhagen hasn't seen the sun in weeks and could use some good music...:) -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Zorn/Canada ? Date: 21 Jan 1997 13:50:57 -0500 (EST) > > If sometime Quebec become a country i hope he will come here. Ha! Ha! :) / touche, Alain :) -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 21 Jan 1997 14:01:17 -0500 (EST) > giving Joey all the solos. In Victoriaville the man was holy like Rebbe > Schneerson. Cosmojizzmatic. Probly the best show I ever saw. Someone said > there was a Radio Canada tape of it? How do I get it? > yeah, yeah, me too. -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Next batch of Tzadik releases Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:10:05 -0800 On Tue, 21 Jan 97 08:47:32 andy.marks@mts.com wrote: > > What's the poop on the next batch of > Tzadik releases? It seems like its getting > close to time for another batch to be > released, but the web page hasn't been updated > in a while. Anybody know any specifics? Here is the next batch (courtesy of David Newgarden): Here's the schedule for March 18 releases (U.S. date - rest of world will ship slightly earlier). Zorn Filmworks III (1990-1995) w/ Thieves Quartet soundtrack (first JZ/DD/JB/GC recordings) 25 TV commercial cues 9 Cynical Hysterie Hour cues duo with Ribot Zorn Black Box (Torture Garden & Leng Tch'e) Film Series Fred Frith - Eye To Ear Marc Ribot _ Shoe String Symphonettes Elliot Sharp - Figure Ground Composer Series Bun-Ching Lam - ... Like Water New Japan Compostela - Wadachi Radical Jewish Culture John Schott - In These Great Times Roy Nathanson & Anthony Coleman - I Could've Been A Drum In Late Spring or Summer Mike Patton Burt Bacharach Filmworks IV ZOrn - New Traditions I n East Asian Bar Bands Koch distribution of Avant will begin March 18. most recent Avants are Derek Bailey "Guitar Drums n Bass" , Dim Sum Clip Job "Harmolodic Jeopardy', Duck Baker plays Herbie Nichols "Spinning Song" Smarnamisa! Resia Valley Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: book of heads Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:43:27 -0700 Eric Schneider wrote: > > Can anyone provide any info/insight about "The Book of Heads," the Zorn > composition performed by Marc Ribot? I'm thinking of getting it for a > friend who is somewhat familiar with Zorn and really loves Frisell's > playing. I'm familiar with Ribot's more rock-oriented playing (for Tom > Waits, Maria McKee,etc.) but was wondering what his more experimental jazz > work sounds like. Thanks. You can read my review of this CD for the SF Bay Guardian at http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba/articles.html I wouldn't expect the average Bill Frisell fan to like this music, necessarily. It's pretty out there stuff-- with none of the lyrical melodicism that pervades most of Frisell's stuff. -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Zorn/Canada ? Date: 21 Jan 1997 13:50:57 -0500 (EST) > > If sometime Quebec become a country i hope he will come here. Ha! Ha! :) / touche, Alain :) -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Tzadik Festival 97 Date: 21 Jan 1997 13:37:55 -0500 (EST) Okay, does anyone have or know where i can find a COPMPLETE list of zorn/zorn-related shows in europe? My friend studying in Copenhagen hasn't seen the sun in weeks and could use some good music...:) -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: machine gun Date: 21 Jan 1997 13:34:04 -0500 (EST) > improvisation predated Globe Unity. (Also, didn't the Brotzmann Octet > which recorded _Machine Gun_ exist as a unit before Globe Unity actually I've heard much about Machine Gun but haven't heard it. Has it been reissued on CD recently? Can i find it? -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Next batch of Tzadik releases Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:10:05 -0800 On Tue, 21 Jan 97 08:47:32 andy.marks@mts.com wrote: > > What's the poop on the next batch of > Tzadik releases? It seems like its getting > close to time for another batch to be > released, but the web page hasn't been updated > in a while. Anybody know any specifics? Here is the next batch (courtesy of David Newgarden): Here's the schedule for March 18 releases (U.S. date - rest of world will ship slightly earlier). Zorn Filmworks III (1990-1995) w/ Thieves Quartet soundtrack (first JZ/DD/JB/GC recordings) 25 TV commercial cues 9 Cynical Hysterie Hour cues duo with Ribot Zorn Black Box (Torture Garden & Leng Tch'e) Film Series Fred Frith - Eye To Ear Marc Ribot _ Shoe String Symphonettes Elliot Sharp - Figure Ground Composer Series Bun-Ching Lam - ... Like Water New Japan Compostela - Wadachi Radical Jewish Culture John Schott - In These Great Times Roy Nathanson & Anthony Coleman - I Could've Been A Drum In Late Spring or Summer Mike Patton Burt Bacharach Filmworks IV ZOrn - New Traditions I n East Asian Bar Bands Koch distribution of Avant will begin March 18. most recent Avants are Derek Bailey "Guitar Drums n Bass" , Dim Sum Clip Job "Harmolodic Jeopardy', Duck Baker plays Herbie Nichols "Spinning Song" Smarnamisa! Resia Valley Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M.Ho" Subject: Re: book of heads Date: 21 Jan 1997 14:06:37 EST I highly recommend it but Ribot's playing is nothing like Frisell's. His playing is jagged and angular, his left hand attacks are abrupt and his interpretations are often twisted, but brilliant, regurgetations of classic tunes. (Solo album, Don't Blame Me, has great covers of Rogers and Hart, Charlie Hadyn, etc. in the above style.) The Book of Heads, however, were originally written for Eugene Chadbourne and Zorn has the guitarist using ballons and a bow, etc. to provide extra variety in timbre. I am perhaps, one of the biggest Ribot fans and highly recommend you checking him out. He is a diverse player covering a wide variety of styles from the rhythm and blues of Elvis Costello's Kojak Variety cover album, to the classical sensibilities of Evan Lurie (he even did a solo classical guitar album of his former teacher, Frantz Casseus), to the guitar squankin', finger plunkin' of his solo albums or leader of his own band, Rootless Cosmopolitans. And that's only the beginning. I could provide a discography if you are interested, but keep in mind, his "sound" is probally the antithesis of Frisell's more ethereal sound yet no less brilliant. Write me if I can be of more help. -Mary > > Can anyone provide any info/insight about "The Book of Heads," the Zorn > composition performed by Marc Ribot? I'm thinking of getting it for a > friend who is somewhat familiar with Zorn and really loves Frisell's > playing. I'm familiar with Ribot's more rock-oriented playing (for Tom > Waits, Maria McKee,etc.) but was wondering what his more experimental jazz > work sounds like. Thanks. > > - Eric Schneider > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: machine gun Date: 22 Jan 1997 01:59:42 -0500 (EST) On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote: > I've heard much about Machine Gun but haven't heard it. Has it been > reissued on CD recently? Can i find it? FMP 24. Available from Cadence and, I'm sure, elsewhere. Does _Machine Gun_ come up often enough to belong in the FAQ? Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James L. Kirchmer" Subject: [Fwd: epulse! Zorn info] Date: 22 Jan 1997 03:21:12 -0800 owner-epulse-l@majordomo.netcom.com wrote: > --- CONTENTS / January 17, 1997 > >>> Welcome back to epulse, the musically omnivorous > weekly ezine of Pulse! and Classical Pulse! magazines ---snip--- > 2. 78 of the week: > Perfect, which seems to us to be the only surviving label putting out > 78s, has just released CHARLIE FEATHERS & JUNIOR KIMBROUGH's "FEEL GOOD > AGAIN"/"NOW, LITTLE GIRL." The A-side features the duo in what seems to be > a rough practice session from the late '50s. After a few aborted takes, the > pair begin with Junior Kimbrough singing. Of the two, the Feathers' solo on > the flipside is the less interesting track, too lo-fi to really be > appreciated. More 78s are promised to be released by the Balfa Brothers, > Jim O'Rourke and, believe it or not, John Zorn's Masada. With only 500 > copies pressed per platter, these will surely be collector's items, so buy > 'em when you see 'em. ---snip--- Who the hell has a player that can handle 78's!?!?! Hard to come by these days! (as new units) I suppose the more expensive ones offer this function though.... Well, enough said - yours truly, james kirchmer, seattle, wa > 3. tribute album of the week: > An undertaking such as covering Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 'Deja > Vu' with a jazz bent is a potentially hazardous proposition, especially > given the results of similar (in theory, at least) projects paying tribute > to the likes of Hendrix, Prince and others in recent years. Which is why > guitarist FAREED HAQUE's 'DEJA VU' (Blue Note; due March 25) is such a > surprise. Funky beats and bass lines intersperse with Latin rhythms and > guitar styles, bringing out aspects of such well-worn (and still-standing) > tunes as "Woodstock," "Teach Your Children" and "Carry On" that were only > hinted at before. And "Almost Cut My Hair," rendered without its inane > lyrics (as are all the cuts here), is actually listenable. > > 4. ah-one and ah-two great accordion releases of the week: > Generally the accordion is associated with Lawrence Welk or > Oktoberfests, but two releases this week dispel those myths and may well > explain the instrument as a worldwide cultural link. MARIA KALANIEMI is > described as a master of the five-row and free-bass accordion on her album > 'IHO' (Hannibal, out now). Kalaniemi is accompanied by members of the > Finnish group Aldargaz as they romp through both traditional Finnish folk > songs and original tunes. > The accordions on 'SQUEEZE PLAY: A WORLD ACCORDION ANTHOLOGY' > (Rounder, out now) accompany jigs, polkas and tarantellas. The songs, > dating from the early 1900s, come from Poland, Scotland, South Africa and > Louisiana--it's amazing how the distinctive sound has been interpreted into > such diverse cultures. Of note is a 1928 recording of the "Pawel Walc" > ("St. Paul Waltz"). The melody is strangely familiar because it became Tex > Owens' "Cattle Call," and many years later was immortalized by Eddy Arnold. > These two albums should change anyone's opinion of the accordion. > > 5. musical of the week: > Woody Allen's 'EVERYONE SAYS I LOVE YOU' has been getting its share of > critical flak for a variety of reasons. But the reality of the musical is > that Allen has created a cute, if lightweight, movie that hearkens back to > what musicals have always represented -- innocence and love. While most of > the Tin Pan Alley songs fail to soar, Allen wisely adds kitsch and elements > of surprise to the dance numbers. Itzhak Perlman even has a short cameo. > Allen may not be Gene Kelly (he's not even Busby Berkeley), but I had a > helluva lot easier time listening to his crooning than Madonna's in that > other musical out now. > > 6. jazz reissue of the week: > There were some skeptics around the office wondering if John Fahey > really has any input on the new label that's billed to his name, Revenant. > After all, the guy's been pretty much secluded in Oregon with illness for a > decade or so, and now suddenly he's putting out discs by the likes of Cecil > Taylor, Jim O'Rourke and Milford Graves? Well, perhaps we were too quick to > discredit the guitar legend. Revenant's first release, DEREK BAILEY's > 'MUSIC AND DANCE' (out now), is a reissue from a 1980 privately-released > cassette. Featuring Bailey with Japanese dancer Min Tanaka, these two > compositions lean much closer to music than performance art. Bailey's > atonal acoustic guitar playing is accentuated by the environmental sounds > of raindrops on a glass roof, the tapping of Tanaka's feet on the wooden > floor and even outside traffic. About halfway through "Saturday Dance" > Bailey briefly starts playing his feedback-driven electric guitar and much > of the raw blues quality is lost. Still, it's an interesting disc and a > good start for the new label. > > 7. classical record of the weak: > No sooner had the email been read than the laughter began here at > epulse. THE GREAT KAT -- "Juilliard graduate violin virtuoso/Cyberspeed > guitarist" -- has just announced the release of her latest CD, 'GUITAR > GODDESS' (self-released). Featuring four tracks that range from Rossini's > "Barber of Seville" to the original composition "Dominatrix," the album > covers the gamut of where (we think) cyberspeed music is headed. The press > release pretty much spoke for itself: "[the disc was] developed to appeal > to hyper kinetic Web surfers who crowd Kat's website daily and demand Kat's > fast, exciting Cyberspeed music and eccentric personality." And since > sometimes in life the journey is more rewarding than the destination, we'll > let you find her website on your own. > > 8. award show of the week: > It's become something of a trend to bash the GOLDEN GLOBES, the > annual film and television awards handed out by the much-reviled Hollywood > Foreign Press Association. You know: Bunch of hacks for no-bit Euro-rags. > Take junkets and "favors" from anyone who offers them. No credibility. > Yadda yadda yadda. But has anyone noticed that this year's GG nominees are > actually looking a bit, uh, cooler? That the nominees for Best Picture -- > 'Breaking the Waves,' 'The English Patient,' 'The People Vs. Larry Flynt,' > 'Secrets & Lies,' 'Shine' -- are actually films you might want to see? That > 'Fargo' is right up there next to 'The Birdcage' in the Best Motion Picture > -- Musical or Comedy category? Hey, we might actually have to watch it this > Sunday (8 p.m. EST, NBC). > > This week's epulse8 contributors: Peter Melton, Jason Verlinde, Ned Hammad, > Mara Wildfeuer and Barbara Baker. [!] > ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ > > --- Texas Tornados, part 2 > >>> Freddy Fender in the Digital Age > > Talking to Doug Sahm is probably the most insane experience a journalist > can have. His range of topics takes in baseball, Newt Gingrich, Guitar Slim > and Canter's Delicatessen. Somewhere in the course of this, he offers, "Do > you wanna talk to Freddy? He'd love you, man." > > Freddy Fender is best known for his mid-'70s string of massive country > hits, the biggest being "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights" and "Before the > Next Teardrop Falls," both of which were heavily inflected with Tex-Mex > influences. Not surprising, considering his Christian name is Baldemar > Huerta and he started out in the '50s, recording a seamless blend of > rockabilly and conjunto music for the Ideal label. Possession of marijuana > clotheslined his career, unless you count jail time as a career move (which > would be true in the case of Johnny Rodriguez.) > > Whereas Doug is all things perpetual motion, Freddy is reserved and > consciously dignified. He is a perfect Elder Statesman, soft-spoken but > enthusiastic to come forth with Keys to the Kingdom. Like Sahm, he recalls > the pre-Beatles era with real fondness. > > "It's roots," he emphasizes, "and the music was the only thing we had. We > didn't have anymore. We didn't want anymore. We had what we had, and we > accepted that, and we enjoyed the hell out of it. > > "We didn't have technology like you have today. When I first started > recording, it was monaural one-track. Primitive. So you had to sound good > playing, because the only thing you could do to the sound on the tape was > add bass or treble." > > While Sahm will regale you with stories of the West Texas club circuit, > when asked about the difference between Then and Now, Fender speaks of it > more as an approach. > > "It's really technology. You know -- if we wanted a glass of water, you had > to walk over to the sink and pour it. If we didn't want it to be easier, > it's because we didn't mind a little work. And, you know, the music shows > it. Those guys were playing! > > "Even in the '70s, when I was doing 'Teardrop' and 'Wasted Days,' it was > about getting a groove and playing. Those records really didn't count on > technology. So the change really didn't happen until a short time ago. > > "In the '60s, I was the engineer on a session of Lydia Mendoza [the Jimmie > Rodgers of Tejano music]. It was just her singing, and her 12-string > guitar. And she was so strong. She didn't need anything else. Like with > rockabilly -- the only technology was the echo. But now? It's very > different." > > Fender's hits are still a staple of the live Tornados show, as are Sahm's > Quintet hits with Augie Meyers ("Mendocino" and "She's About a Mover"). In > many ways, the Tornados are a throwback, even a nostalgia act. But, as we > shall examine next week, it is not governed by the need to re-create the > past. Rather, it is about guys from an earlier time who just aren't ready > to go gentle into that good night. --SKIP HELLER [!] > ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ > > --- THE EMAILBAG > >>> We love mail. Drop us a line at pulsemag@netcom.com. > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:01:13 -0500 > > From: "-=[His Master's Viola!]=-" > > To: pulsemag@netcom.com > > > > I would just like to complement the critics > > for picking the top 5 New discs with NEW pieces, > > rather than another recording of Beethoven's 9th. > > BRAVO! Now, if only the obscure world music labels > > were commonly available. But, I suppose part of > > the fun is looking for the disc, eh? =) > > > > Congrats, > > -Leo > > > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:40:25 -0500 > > From: Heather > > To: pulsemag@netcom.com > > > > Hey there. > > Just dropping a line to let you know that > > the URL you listed in epulse 3.02 to check > > out Pingu is inaccurate. It's http: > > //www.ncl.ac.uk/~nmac5/pingu.html > > Thanks for your time. > ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ > > --- Rubbernecking #8 > >>> Saving the Circus > > That old woman finally caught Townes Van Zandt -- her hair just like barbed > wire. "Her smile just like the grave." Townes foretold their meeting in > "The Hole" on 1994's 'NO DEEPER BLUE.' In that song, Townes escaped the > hag. In real life, however, he died two weeks back on New Year's Eve. He > was one of Nashville's premier songwriters ("Pancho & Lefty," "If I Needed > You") as well as its most notorious screwups. This summer I read in 'No > Depression' magazine about an Ann Arbor performance that consisted of the > man slumped onstage weeping. Van Zandt had an unpredictable performance > reputation -- but would dope or booze alone make a man break down like > that? And what about the audience? Why didn't someone hold up their hand > and say, "Townes. It's okay. Come sit with us -- have some pizza. We'll > play foosball after the show ... " > > Van Zandt's 'New York Times' obituary informs that he died from a "heart > attack." 'The Times' also tells that Van Zandt was born into a wealthy Fort > Worth family, and spent most of his formative years in Texas nuthouses. > Apparently he was a "manic-depressive with schizophrenic tendencies." > > This information illuminated his onstage weeping. And I hope that some of > you carry the same romantic notion that I do that art is dangerous -- the > artist who is either strungout and/or certifiably crazy merely emphasizes > the danger. I just saw 'The Master Class,' the Broadway play about Maria > Callas in her decline, and at the end of the show, the Callas character > puts forth this same notion. On the cab ride home, I debated the > danger-factor in art with my wife. "Performing onstage is dangerous," she > said. "Writing and painting is about as dangerous as plumbing." > > Well, you wouldn't want a schizophrenic plumper installing your Jacuzzi, > but is my wife right? Even in private, the plastic arts don't draw blood. > Certainly my Powerbook never caused me physical injury (no matter what I > wrote). But I want to believe that Van Zandt wasn't weeping because he was > onstage, but because he had brought back all those messages from the Other > Side -- "So walk my friends, in the light of day/Don't go sneakin' round no > holes/There just might be something down there/Wants to gobble up your > soul." > > In the middle of romanticizing Townes Van Zandt, I suddenly remember the > circus: Last fall, a circus from India came to New York and raised a tent > in Battery Park City under the World Trade Center. The climax of the show > was a spectacular stampeding of dozens of stallions, each galloping in a > tight circle as he was ridden by a Bengal woman standing barefoot on his > spine. Talk about riding bareback -- those equine women were magnificent! > It was only after the show that I realized if any of them had slipped, she > would have been trampled. And this is the epitome of a dangerous art, isn't > it -- when the audience (and by extension, the listener or the reader) is > only subliminally conscious of how dangerous the act is? > > I admit that weeping on stage in Ann Arbor (or any place else) is not > dangerous. Still, I want to give Townes the last word. On a recent live > album -- 'ROAD SONGS' -- Van Zandt covers a Joe Ely song about the circus: > an Indian (Native American, not New Delhi) cowboy lassos a runaway mare who > is racing for a lantern that "some fool" left dangerously close to some > hay. The cowboy saves the circus. > > And is then stampeded by some freaked-out elephants. > > Now I tell you that out in the center ring, women may be standing on the > horses, but the songwriters are backstage saving the big top from burning > down. And although Townes Van Zandt ended up being trampled by those > psychic pachyderms, I'd like to believe that this artist escaped the old > woman who was waiting for his soul. --DAVID BOWMAN [!] > ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ > > --- FINE PRINT > >>> who, what, where, when, how and more boring, legal stuff > > February Pulse! street date 1/31 > February Classical Pulse! street date 2/7 > > To subscribe to epulse, send the message "subscribe epulse-L" to the > address listserv@netcom.com. Tell your friends. > > To stop receiving epulse, send the message "unsubscribe epulse-L" to the > address listserv@netcom.com. > > CONTEST RULES: One email entry per email address. One email entry per human > being. Please include your full name, daytime (U.S. time) phone number and > email address in the body of the letter. Pulse! accepts no responsibility > for late email, lost, misdirected or illegible entries. Contest void where > prohibited by law. All local, state, federal and international laws apply. > Taxes are the responsibility of the winners. Prize is not transferable, > cannot be substituted and cannot be redeemed for cash. Prize courtesy of > Reprise Records. Employees of MTS, Inc., Reprise, WEA, their families, > agencies or affiliates are ineligible. If an outside source supplies the > winning question, they will not be eligible for the second drawing, nor > will any of his/her relatives. In the case of multiple entries of what is > essentially the same question, a winner will be decided from among them at > random. > > Tower's website is up and running at http://www.towerrecords.com. And visit > Tower's AOL site: "Keyword: tower." Pulse! is published 11 times annually, > Classical Pulse! bimonthly, epulse weekly. > > For subscription information to either magazine, please write to: Snail > Circulation/Pulse!, 2500 Del Monte St., West Sacramento, CA 95691. Both > magazines are available free at U.S. Tower Records/Video retail stores. > Epulse is published weekly by MTS, Inc. > > All correspondence addressed to epulse or its contributors will be assumed > intended for publication as will email addresses, unless privacy is > requested. The contents of this mailing are copyright (c) 1997 MTS, Inc. > All material is verified factual at press time but some information, such > as street dates and album and song titles, is subject to change. [!] > ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^ [end] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: machine gun Date: 22 Jan 1997 08:53:04 -0800 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:34:04 -0500 (EST) "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" wrote: > > > improvisation predated Globe Unity. (Also, didn't the Brotzmann Octet > > which recorded _Machine Gun_ exist as a unit before Globe Unity actually > > I've heard much about Machine Gun but haven't heard it. Has it been > reissued on CD recently? Can i find it? And I thought that the access to the list implied owning a copy of MACHINE GUN. Did you relax the admission criteria, Rizzi? Stop joking. MACHINE GUN is *THE* record! As important to European improv as FREE JAZZ (Coleman). The CD has extra takes and has been available for few years now. Definitely available at Cadence (there is a great alternative rock store in Portland which carries it, with many others!). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: [Fwd: epulse! Zorn info] Date: 22 Jan 1997 09:44:24 -0800 On Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:21:12 -0800 "James L. Kirchmer" wrote: > > owner-epulse-l@majordomo.netcom.com wrote: > > > --- CONTENTS / January 17, 1997 > > >>> Welcome back to epulse, the musically omnivorous > > weekly ezine of Pulse! and Classical Pulse! magazines > ---snip--- > > 2. 78 of the week: > > Perfect, which seems to us to be the only surviving label putting out > > 78s, has just released CHARLIE FEATHERS & JUNIOR KIMBROUGH's "FEEL GOOD > > AGAIN"/"NOW, LITTLE GIRL." The A-side features the duo in what seems to be > > a rough practice session from the late '50s. After a few aborted takes, the > > pair begin with Junior Kimbrough singing. Of the two, the Feathers' solo on > > the flipside is the less interesting track, too lo-fi to really be > > appreciated. More 78s are promised to be released by the Balfa Brothers, > > Jim O'Rourke and, believe it or not, John Zorn's Masada. With only 500 > > copies pressed per platter, these will surely be collector's items, so buy > > 'em when you see 'em. > ---snip--- > > Who the hell has a player that can handle 78's!?!?! > Hard to come by these days! (as new units) > I suppose the more expensive ones offer this function though.... A record collector does not need a record player :-). Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) Subject: Re: machine gun Date: 22 Jan 1997 10:52:53 -0800 (PST) Patrice L. Roussel, demi-God and Icon sez: > >> I've heard much about Machine Gun but haven't heard it. Has it been >> reissued on CD recently? Can i find it? > >And I thought that the access to the list implied owning a copy of >MACHINE GUN. Did you relax the admission criteria, Rizzi? You are correct Patrice, that has been the longstanding policy for membership in the zorn-list cabal. Unfortunately, I have been lax in my duties, comrade. I am now ready for the consequences. Take your best shot mike -- "Another nerd with a soulpatch" -=home=- http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/ ------ browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 --------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: N Vassiliou Subject: Re: machine gun Date: 22 Jan 1997 20:11:53 GMT > And I thought that the access to the list implied owning a copy of > MACHINE GUN. Did you relax the admission criteria, Rizzi? You (and many others) are making the assumption that everyone in this list cares about free Improv (which I don't think is the case), and can affort to buy everything under that genre. By saying this, I am not trying to imply anything against either you or Br0tzmann (I have no right to do that as I have not heard Machine Gun yet, and I am sure I would buy it if I could find it). However (no more parentheses from now on), I am sure that most of us could do without such elitist comments. Take care. Nick V. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: machine gun Date: 22 Jan 1997 14:49:00 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, m. rizzi wrote: > I am now ready for the consequences. Take your best shot i vote that rizzi must treat us all to a round of drinks and endure a stern "don't do that" lecture. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: Re: tim berne cd Date: 22 Jan 1997 18:26:34 -0500 Les Scurry wrote: > > I read your post on the zorn list about the triple live package. Is > this still around? Are you the person behind Screwgun? If you are, are > there any other releases? > > for payment, do you accept checks? > > thanks for putting up with all the questions? > > ls Les I have no connection to Mr. Berne other than being a fan of his music. I ordered the 3 CD set from Screwgun records. I also have no connection to Screwgun. As far as I know Screwgun exists only to release these CDs, therefore is a creation of Tim's for that purpose. However, this is just a guess on my part, based only on the idea that to release a 3 CD package on a known label is financial suicide. At least this way I feel that Tim gets a direct cut of the cash. I ordered by check. Either way, if you are a fan, which I assume you are, then GET IT! Alan E Kayser ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James L. Kirchmer" Subject: oops! Date: 22 Jan 1997 19:39:39 -0800 Hey there - hope y'all enjoyed the bit of Masada 78 info - but I need to apologize for inadvertently not clipping the rest of the epulse! digest that I snipped from. The end of the digest scrolled off my screen and I forgot to delete it. Ya live & learn! (I've NEVER pulled an email goof before!) keep on keepin' on - james kirchmer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) Subject: FAQ Draft 1.1 Comments Please (Long) Date: 22 Jan 1997 23:27:23 -0800 (PST) Time for my second shot at the zorn-list FAQ. (after this, it will be available via ftp and the web only...so as to not clog the list) Please take a gander and let me know of any inaccuracies, etc. A big thank you to everyone who has contributed and a little thank you to those that just sent questions. : ) Unfortunately, I dont have the time to research and compose decent answers at the moment. So if anyone is inclined...feel free to have a go at it. What are y'alls feelings about including non-zorn related questions? (I've listed the relevant submitted questions at the end of this email) What do y'all think of "personal" questions? I'm not in favor of including this kind of info in the FAQ, but am willing if (a) folks want me to and (b) they are willing to write the answer text. And finally, some of the submitted questions can have pretty wide open answers, should we just leave them out? Or does anyone care to take a stab at them? Cheers, mike rizzi Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for the The John Zorn Mailing List DRAFT 1.1 updated 22 Jan 1997 -=- -=- -=- * When is John Zorn going to be playing in a city near me? Since there is no single source for John Zorns touring schedule, this FAQ will be updated with upcoming shows reported by other members of the zorn-list. Please email any additions/updates to me, rizzi@netcom.com January 17, 1997 Slim's - San Francisco, USA John Zorn/Mike Patton/Ikue Mori January 22, 1997 Opium Den - Taipei, Taiwan John Zorn/Mike Patton/Ikue Mori March Paris, France Tzadik Festival Mar 11 Klezmer Madness Eyvind Kang Project The Ruins Mar 12 Death Ambient Plotkin Trio Elegy Anthony Coleman April 8, 1997 le hot brass - Paris, France Masada April 10, 1997 l'Ancienne Belgique - Brussels, Belgium Masada * How can I get a copy of Masada 4? You can't. Well, it's pretty unlikely at the least. It was never available for retail; it was given away by DIW in exchange of the proof of buying the first three Masada; the deadline for getting it was June 1995. * How do you pronounce "Tzadik"? TZ as in "glitzy" A as in "bad" DIK as in "deek" (the accent is on the first syllable) It means "holy man" in Hebrew . * Is "Heretic" by Naked City really a soundtrack? The Knitting Factory page says " 'Heretic' which also features a Naked City soundtrack, is an experimental narrative in the form of an extended trailer. A very funny take on psychotherapy starring Karen Finley." * Are Mike Patton and The Melvins on Naked City's "Leng T'che"? No, they are not. Some folks would say that "Leng T'che" is Naked City's take on The Melvins sludge style. One can only assume that is why they were thanked in the credits. * Is Zorn in Mr. Bungle? No, he is not. Zorn did however produce Mr. Bungle's self titled major label debut on Warner Brothers. He does play alto sax on one song, "Love is a Fist." * Towards the end of the Zorn/Bailey/Parker CD "Harras," the track "Evening Harras" has about 10 minutes of silence, followed by a section of what seems to be Bailey solo. Is this a mistake? "According to Derek Bailey, the abrupt cutoff was planned. Derek wanted to end it "on a high". The Bailey solo material appended after the silence was apparently Zorn's idea." (thanks to Peter Stubley/Lynn Rardin) * How do I order from Tzadik? Koch Distibuting (http://kochint.com/tzadik.html) has a list of Tzadik releases with descriptions and links. Also on this page is a few Zorn resources and a link to CDNow where you can purchase these Tzadik releases. * Is there a Zorn discography? Patrice Roussel has compiled and maintained an unbelievable and comprehensive Zorn discography, as well as discographies for some other great musicians. The Zorn discography was most recently updated November 1996. This is the tenth version. You can get Patrice's Zorn discography via the web at http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html * Where can I read interviews with, or writings about Zorn and his ilk? There's a great interview with Zorn in "Talking Music" by William Duckworth (Schirmer, 1995). A brief chapter about him in "Plunderphonics Pataphysics & Pop_Mechanics: And Introduction to Musique Actuelle" by Andrew Jones (SAF, 1995). Derek Bailey talks with Zorn in his book "Improvisation: Its Nature and Practice in Music" (Da Capo, 1992). Oh and there's this zine based in Oakland... * What's Zorn's phone number? I really need to ask him something. We don't know. Your best bet is to write him a letter via Tzadik. ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! CAN SOMEONE WRITE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS? * What's a "game piece"? * Did Zorn and Yamantaka Eye really release a 100 cd box? * What happened to the "Radio Vol. 2" and the live box from the Zornfest? * Is there a biography on Zorn? * Where can i read more about Zorn's musial aesthetics and theories? * I'm new to the world of Zorn, he's put out so much stuff, which record(s) should i listen to first? * What are all these labels: Avant, DIW and Tzadik? Does Zorn own them? What is his relationship to them? * Why is it so difficult to find Avant and DIW releases in the US? * What record stores in my area cater to this kind of music? * How can i find out more about upcoming Zorn and related projects? * Zorn/improv and related resources on the web (radio stations, labels, magazines, discog, etc.) * Is Zorn serious about this religion thing? * Is that a torn t-shirt he's wearing under his clothes? * What are those funny song names for Masada? * What is Masada, Kristallnacht? * Who are the various Asian film stars, early 20th century artists, etc. with pieces named after or dedicated to them? * Something about the various photographers and artists used for CD covers and the sources of the pics. * I heard about some sort of controversy around the use of purported pornographic images on Zorn's CD covers. What's the deal? * Is this super-heavy Zorn guy really as old as/older than my dad? * Are there other cool saxophone players? ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ARE THESE QUESTIONS RELEVANT TO THE ZORN-LIST FAQ? * Did the singer of the Boredoms change his name? In 1996 Yamatsuka Eye changed his name to Yamantaka Eye. [Didn't Zorn do something similar?] * Who is Scummy? * Who is Buckethead? We don't know. ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ARE THESE QUESTIONS OF A TOO PERSONAL NATURE? * I hear that Zorn and Eugene Chadbourne broke up because Zorn ripped off Eugene, and now they hate eachother. Is that true? -=- -=- -=- THANKS to the following people who helped (actively and inadvertently) answer the common questions that crop up on the zorn-list. herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy) zoopsi@inet.uni-c.dk (Torsten "Jonas" Nielsen) proussel@ichips.intel.com (Patrice L. Roussel) bcarlson@midway.uchicago.edu (Brian Carlson) yol@esophagus.com (Dan Kletter) cmatsumo@cmp.com (Matsumoto Craig) insulin@slip.net (Marc Kate) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #54 Date: 22 Jan 1997 23:16:32 -0800 (PST) > >> And I thought that the access to the list implied owning a copy of >> MACHINE GUN. Did you relax the admission criteria, Rizzi? > >You (and many others) are making the assumption that everyone in this list cares about free Improv (which I don't think >is the case), and can affort to buy everything under that genre. By saying this, I am not trying to imply anything against >either you or Br0tzmann (I have no right to do that as I have not heard Machine Gun yet, and I am sure I would buy it if I >could find it). However (no more parentheses from now on), I am sure that most of us could do without such elitist >comments. It's okay Nick, in the next sentence (the one you clipped out), Patrice said that he was joking. cheers, mike "Another nerd with a soulpatch" -=home=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: N Vassiliou Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #54 Date: 23 Jan 1997 10:48:45 +0000 (GMT) > It's okay Nick, in the next sentence (the one > you clipped out), Patrice said that he was > joking. > ok then. Nick V ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Russell Subject: FAQ Draft 1.1 Date: 23 Jan 1997 11:18:49 +0800 A response to the Zorn/Eye 100cd set. According to an advert in The Wire the proposed 100cd set was postponed. It will apparently be released in March. The set is supposed to cover Zorn/Eyeđs Japanese tour (I canđt remember the date off hand) and will feature different amounts of music on each disc. I hope this is of use to smeone. Scott Russell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: FAQ Draft 1.1 Comments Please (Long) Date: 23 Jan 1997 10:34:54 -0500 Hey Mike - >* When is John Zorn going to be playing in a city near me? > > Since there is no single source for John Zorns touring > schedule, this FAQ will be updated with upcoming shows > reported by other members of the zorn-list. Please > email any additions/updates to me, rizzi@netcom.com > If New York City can be counted as "a city near you" then here are a few more dates, all at the Knitting Factory (natch): Feb. 1 The Short Films of Henry Hills Naked City videos: Gotham, Osaka Bondage, Ignaceous Ejaculation plus Heretic and The Little Lieutenant of the Loving God (All Zorn soundtracks, though Zorn himself isn't expected to show.) Feb. 9 Painkiller (with Ted Epstein subbing for Mick Harris) Feb 21 Zorn and Yamataka Eye (that's evidently the new "official" spelling of Eye's name, Zorn spelled it out very slowly for me...) March 2 Zorn and Arto Lindsay (on a bill with Mainliner and Ruins) I might take a crack at some of the other FAQs later... Steve Smith ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: Machine Gun Date: 23 Jan 1997 10:38:00 PST >>From: N Vassiliou >>Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:11:53 GMT >>Subject: Re: machine gun >> >>"...I am sure that most of us could do without such elitist comments." Hey, calm down! It was obviously a joke. And pretty much a good hint that this is a disc most of us would definitely want to have. Damn, people can get so touchy and take things too seriously. Lighten up, man! By the way, due to having an insanely diverse taste in music and therefore do not often "go searching" for discs, I do not have "Machine Gun" myself. So Mike & Patrice, let me know when I'm kicked of the list. Do I get 2 weeks notice? I will start looking for this disc as I enjoy this list too much. Can someone give me Cadence's address or other method of contact? (privately) To James Kirchmer, while I was minorly upset that you didn't clip that whole message, I was amused and glad to read that bit on The Great Kat. While she is a fantastic musician, she is rather strange. I can't believe the Classical Dept. actually mentioned her. OK, so I'm wasting bandwidth... Matt Walsh mattw@smginc.com annoying co-workers with: Thought Industry - "Songs For Insects" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: N Vassiliou Subject: Re: Machine Gun Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:39:28 +0000 (GMT) > Hey, calm down! It was obviously a joke. And pretty much a good hint that > this is a disc most of us would definitely want to have. Damn, people can > get so touchy and take things too seriously. Lighten up, man! > hey, it's not like I put a contract on the guy, so 'touchy' and 'seriously' are probably not appropriate here. I was just making a comment, which I felt covered some other people in this list as well. Obviously, judging by your aggressive comments, this is not the case and I regret sendind this mail. As for the hint, it is obvious in my reply that I took it, as I said I will most probably buy the record. But I guess some people don't take hints. Apologies to the other members of the list for this mail Nick V. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: FAQ Draft 1.1 Date: 23 Jan 1997 16:00:10 -0500 >A response to the Zorn/Eye "Live In China" 100cd set. >According to an advert in The Wire the proposed 100cd set was >postponed. It will apparently be released in March. The set is >supposed to cover Zorn/Eye's Japanese tour ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A slight correction here ... the set is a recording of their 1995 China tour. Additional info: I believe it has been pushed back again to the fall of 1997. ------ On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Barry Gilbert wrote: I spoke with Zorn at last night's show in Boulder. He said this set would be delayed until probably the fall. He also said that the shortest CD's would be about one second long. ------ The set has been personally arranged & edited by Zorn. Limited Edition: 1000 >(I can't remember the date off hand) and will feature different amounts of >>music on each disc. I hope this is of use to smeone. -Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jason Caulfield Bivins Subject: "elitism"? Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:54:58 -0500 (EST) Forgive me if I sound pedantic, but I'd like to object to the characterization of Patrice and Mike as elitist. While I'm sure the remark was not made in a hostile spirit, it strikes me as wrong. The way I read it, the two of them were expressing admiration for what is an important historical document and a very good record. I normally don't participate in this sort of discussion, but perhaps judgmentalism is to be avoided more than "elitism". Jason Bivins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIRD BRAIN Subject: Zorn a fake Date: 23 Jan 1997 20:09:36 -0500 When I first heard Zorn, about five years ago, I also thought he was a "fake". There I feel better. I remember during spring break my friends and I left our small Wyoming cowtown destined for Denver to go on a record buying binge. One bought Torture Garden because of the cover art and when we listened to it all I remeber thinking was - this is interesting but nothing more than a novelty. Needless to say my opinions and musical tastes have changed, mostly because of Zorn's music. When I moved to Denver to study music I was surprised to learn that the director of jazz studies once played with Zorn when they both attended the University of Oregon in Eugene. But he didn't seem to like the music Zorn was putting out at the time (Naked City), which was turning my world around. He did have a Zorn composition framed and hanging on his office wall. I believe it was written for three soprano saxes playing in unison. I was also surprised to find out my saxophone instructor had never heard of Zorn and when I played some of Zorn's music for him he was very unimpressed. The words "Zorn needs to get a life" return to my memory. After that moment I lost respect for this teacher, and soon left that school. I wonder if the opinions have changed recently among the faculty in our higher learning institutions. Any thoughts, or experiences? If opinions have changed I would like to know, 'cause I'd like to go back to school, but I need instrutors who love the music of Dolphy, Coltrane, Ornette, and Zorn to name a few. I remember the jazz improvisation class I took we had to learn a solo every week (transcribe it by ear) and memorize it and play it in class along with the recording. One week I learned Ornette's solo on Ramblin' and played it for the class. My instructor afterwards told me in so many words that Ornette solos would be frowned upon - for what ever reason. I also began to transcribe Zorn's composition The Conqueror Worm (from Heretic) with the idea of playing it for my recital but after presenting my advisor with the idea he told me it wasn't a good idea. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Benton Subject: Davey's Sanctuary Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:15:00 -0600 (CST) Ok, so this is sort of a dated question, but I'm going to ask anyway. In I guess late December, the Knit put on some kind of 'Composer Series' concert, I think Zorn was there doing Redbird, but my question was regarding Dave Douglas. This was another performance of his Sanctuary group, which seems to be something of a long form composition for a not quite set instumentation. Multiple (occasionally single) bass, drums, sampler, trumpet. In the past it's been augmented by sax or bone as well. I wanted to see if anyone made it to this performance and had any impressions. There's supposedly a recording of this group coming up on Avant I think; Any wisdom on this? Thanks all, carry on... -Tom- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: FAQ Draft 1.1 Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:36:28 -0500 (EST) On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Scott Russell wrote: > A response to the Zorn/Eye 100cd set. > According to an advert in The Wire the proposed 100cd set was=20 > postponed. It will apparently be released in March. The set is=20 > supposed to cover Zorn/Eye=B9s Japanese tour (I can=B9t remember the date= =20 > off hand) and will feature different amounts of music on each disc. I=20 > hope this is of use to smeone. > Scott Russell I heard from this list that all 100 CDs would contain a grand total of 2=20 hours of music. Ha ha ha...ha? -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: [Fwd: epulse! Zorn info] Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:41:09 -0500 (EST) > > Who the hell has a player that can handle 78's!?!?! > > Hard to come by these days! (as new units) > > I suppose the more expensive ones offer this function though.... > > A record collector does not need a record player :-). > > Patrice. There's a book called "THE RECORDING ANGEL" which talks about the phenomenon of recorded music. It's very intersesting, and liable to make you take a long hard look at your growing wall of CDs and either laugh or cry... There's a beautiful bit at the beginning about this fanatical record collector who owns thousnads upon thousands of records. He's also stone deaf (!). -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: FAQ Draft 1.1 Comments Please (Long) Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:46:49 -0500 (EST) > Feb. 9 Painkiller (with Ted Epstein subbing for Mick Harris) WOW! I thought they weren't playing any more. Damn, here i am living in canada.... oh well. Tell me how it was. -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: machine gun Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:50:40 -0500 (EST) > Forgive me if I sound pedantic, but I'd like to object to the > characterization of Patrice and Mike as elitist. While I'm sure the > remark was not made in a hostile spirit, it strikes me as wrong. The way > I read it, the two of them were expressing admiration for what is an > important historical document and a very good record. I normally don't > participate in this sort of discussion, but perhaps judgmentalism is to > be avoided more than "elitism". > Jason Bivins (sniff sniff) Guys....stop fighting (sniff sniff)..it...(sob)...it was *MY* fault....*I'M* the one who doesn't have Machine Gun....(sniff)....*i'm* the one to blame.....(choke...sob)..... -jascha (wiping a tear from his eye) :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard Shih Subject: Re: Davey's Sanctuary Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:49:13 -0500 (EST) On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Tom Benton wrote: > regarding Dave Douglas. This was another performance of his Sanctuary > group, which seems to be something of a long form composition for a > not quite set instumentation. Multiple (occasionally single) bass, > drums, sampler, trumpet. In the past it's been augmented by sax or bone > as well. I wanted to see if anyone made it to this performance and had > any impressions. There's supposedly a recording of this group coming up > on Avant I think; Any wisdom on this? Thanks all, carry on... I didn't make it to the Sanctuary show but I talked to Dave after his performance w/Myra Melford & Tiny Bell Trio back in December. He said that the Avant disc should be coming out in the Spring or Summer. Oh, and a new Tiny Bell disc in the Spring as well. I highly recommend the Myra Melford disc: The Same River Twice. I had gone to the performance to see Tiny Bell but was really impressed w/Melford's music. It can get really abstract & out there in a Cecil Taylorish way but then there's always a killer hook to reel you back in. The band is Myra Melford on Piano, Dave Douglas on trumpet (duh), Chris Speed (Sax/Clarinet), Eric Frielander (cello), and Michael Sarin on drums. Does Melford have any other discs out? oh, and did anyone catch any of the Masada shows at the Knit in Decmeber? Howard Shih howards@m4dd.com Cybrarian/Assistant Programmer Meta 4 Digital Design Phone: 201-309-0005 Ext. 242 FAX: 201-309-0110 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schneide@augsburg.edu (Eric Schneider) Subject: anthony coleman trio Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:26:44 -0600 I know it's been discussed here before, but... How's the new Anthony Coleman Trio album? (Anyone, Bueller, anyone?...) With the rhythm section of Baron and Cohen, I'd imagine it to be quite amazing. Any opinions would be helpful... thanks. - Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jason Caulfield Bivins Subject: Re: machine gun Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:22:20 -0500 (EST) Maybe I missed something . . . was there a fight? I hope not (but the album is entitled "Machine Gun" after all), since I meant to defuse and not to ignite. Oh well, that's the nature of the medium I suppose. Peacefully, Jason Bivins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: FAQ Draft 1.1 Comments Please (Long) Date: 24 Jan 1997 18:31:59 -0500 >> Feb. 9 Painkiller (with Ted Epstein subbing for Mick Harris) > >WOW! I thought they weren't playing any more. > >Damn, here i am living in canada.... > >oh well. Tell me how it was. > >-jascha Guess now's as good a time as any to mention that Zorn called this morning and said that Laswell can't make this date either. First Epstein subs for Harris, then Laswell can't show... this could very well end up being a Slan gig if this keeps up! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Boster Subject: momentum (fwd) Date: 24 Jan 1997 20:57:44 -0800 (PST) This would be shameless self-promotion, but it seems the Laswell end of the zorn population is opening up to electronic stuff more and more. Fans of drum n' bass, ambient, and Marclay/Shea style collage might be right at home here... Bob ------------------ momentum: an uninterrupted concert of electr(on)ic music presented by friction media and 2779 Saturday February 1st, 8pm-2am at 2779 (formerly Komotion) 16th and Folsom, SF, CA . 4 dollars, in and out OK. Info: 510-655-8636 (day of show 415-626-4420) or email: friction@pobox.com. featuring original music and multimedia by: Maggi Payne, Frank Henriksen, Kent Jolly, A.L. Dentel, Detergent, Michael Berry, Citizen Band, Mr. Meridies, Conceptual Musik Union, dj Cheb i Sabbah, and (in absentia) Lesser. ----more detailed information below, feel free to delete here---- 1 What is momentum? 2 Artists Profiles 3 Other Info momentum is an attempt to bring together performers and audiences from various subdivisions of the general category: electronic music for a large scale meeting of minds... The concert, which runs 6 hours start to finish, will include collaborative moments in the crossfades from one artists set to another's, as well as surround audio and some video accompaniment. This marks the first in a series of Bay Area concerts produced by Friction Media which will follow the aesthetic agenda of bringing together artists from different creative disciplines and styles. The Bay Area member (and founder) of the Friction Media collective, Bob Boster, has been committed to smashing artistic boundaries since his experience in the eclectic Chapel Hill music scene (culminating in the visionary compilation CD: Cognitive Mapping Vol. 2.) It is his feeling that the divisions between such genres as dance music, ambient, tape music, appropriative collage, musique concrete, drum n bass, audio art, noise, and illbient are false and that these divisions need to be confronted for electronic music to expand as a whole. This concert is the first fully formed attack on these divisions. Further, the vision of these musics as being made within something of a modern folk tradition binds them together - and like folk music, these artists are traditionally under-promoted and usually struggle to get access to performing opportunities. Hence the cover charge has been kept low to make the show available to the largest possible audience. This is not a profit-driven event, all money will go towards supporting 2779 (another collective-run venture) and the performers... Artists Profiles (in order of appearance): Maggi Payne is co-director of the Mills College Center for Contemporary Music, where she teaches. Her music tends to focus with incredible attention on sound design and environment, and is often presented with her video work. Maggi has performed throughout the US and Europe and has released music on Lovely Music, Music and Arts, and Centaur. Frank Henriksen is a composer from Norway, whose work exploits the fine degree of detail and control available within computer synthesis. His work involves movement and sonic transformation and always takes advantage of the possibilities of dispersing sound in space. Kent Jollys work brings ideas of composition from the visual arts into the audio realm in unprecedented ways. Using synthesis, especially in conjunction with neural networks, Kent presents an elaborate and fully-formed vision of sound in ways completely separate from the expected in music. A.L. Dentel, aside from being a cornerstone of the 2779 collective, is presenting one of her series of 365 Daily Pieces. While this piece involves field recorded sound in both original and transformed states, her series has music for a variety of traditional and non-traditional instruments. Detergent (Chris Palmatier) is a painter and rock guitarist (Jobys Opinion) as well as a recording engineer. A recent Chapel Hill ex-patriate, this marks his Bay Area debut. His sense of rhythm and form comes from dance music, his sense of sound design from the studio, and his vision from free jazz. Michael Berry "spends his time building real-time audio processors on computers and then playing with them." Citizen Band "is a collection of three composers (Thomas Day, Xopher Davidson and Gregory Lenczycki) whose goal is the utilitarian pursuit of sound exploration through all available means." Mr. Meridies (Bob Boster) works with stolen material (from CDs) and noise to construct new musics that re-configure authorship and creativity. His music has been released by Friction Media and his DJing by Knitting Factory Works. Conceptual Musik Union (Floyd Diebel) arrives as a representative of the Sacramento noise scene. CMU composes using formal elements applied to found sounds, noise, and various musical sources - often in strongly thematic ways. dj Cheb i Sabbah is a long-time participant in the Bay Area club scene, an artist of uncompromising stylistic vision (combining beats and environments with North and West African samples), and promoter of great music both on the KPFA and in local performance venues. and scattered throughout the mix: Lesser is something of an enigma, and will remain one by sending in an offering of tape loops from the road (Lesser is on a national tour as we speak). Equal parts high-energy dance music and musique concrete, Lesser also has the audacity to perform live on occasion. Other info: Participants and audience alike can't be expected to sustain 6 hours of music (although Friction Media offers a special prize to anyone who actually does) so feel free to come and go. There will be a flea market of the participants' music as well as some related material. This event should be appropriate for all ages and dancing is encouraged. Please call the information numbers for directions, details, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Newgarden Date: 25 Jan 1997 04:36:29 -0500 (EST) Here's the poop on the Tzadik European Tour - Evening A Anthony Coleman Trio Eyvind Kang Group Death Ambient (Kato Hideki / Ikue Mori / Jim Plotkin) Evening B Ruins David Krakauer Trio Elegy (slides & prerecorded music -- perhaps someone else can better describe the visuals... I was in Guatemala during the 'month of Zorn') 3/5/97 Thessaloniki, Greece - A 3/6/97 Thessaloniki, Greece - B 3/7/97 Wels, Austria - A 3/8/97 Wels, Austria - B Wien, Austria - A 3/9/97 Wien, Austria - B Insbruck, Austria - A 3/10/97 Insbruck, Austria - B 3/11/97 Paris, France - A 3/12/97 Paris, France - B Koln, Germany - A 3/13/97 Koln, Germany - B 3/14/97 Hamburg, Germany - A Dortmund, Germany - B 3/15/97 Dortmund, Germany - A Hamburg, Germany - B 3/16/97 Berlin, Germany - A 3/17/97 Berlin, Germany - B 3/18/97 Brussels, Belgium - A Ghent, Belgium - B 3/19/97 Brussels, Belgium - B Ghent, Belgium - A Also - appearing @ Taktlos Festival 3/20/97 Bern - Death Ambient & Ruins 3/21/97 Basel - Anthony Coleman Zurich - Death Ambient & Ruins 3/22/97 Basel - Death Ambient & Ruins Bern - Anthony Coleman 3/23/97 Zurich - Anthony Coleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: zorn faq Date: 25 Jan 1997 11:22:54 -0500 (EST) >From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) >Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:27:23 -0800 (PST) > >* How do I order from Tzadik? > > Koch Distibuting (http://kochint.com/tzadik.html) has a list of > Tzadik releases with descriptions and links. Also on this page > is a few Zorn resources and a link to CDNow where you can purchase > these Tzadik releases. > Wayside (http://members.aol.com/Cuneiform2/cuneiform.html) claims to be an 'official mail order source' for Tzadik and appear to have a complete list with brief descriptions of each one. > >* What's a "game piece"? > I'll take a stab. A game piece, of which Cobra is the best known and most recorded (at least three different versions on Avant, Hat, and Knitting Factory), is a method of group improvisation where the structure of the piece (the rules of the game) is set by a prompter at performance time, and the players have complete freedom within the structure. It differs from free improvisation (jazz) because of the prompter. It differs from contemporary classical aleatory music (Cage, Stockhausen, Pousseur) and conduction (Butch Morris) in the complete absence of any notated musical notes of any kind. The playful and whimsical connotations of the word 'game' are also relevant to Zorn's game pieces. > >* I'm new to the world of Zorn, he's put out so much stuff, which > record(s) should i listen to first? > And here's a stab at this one. I'm not a big fan of the bop pieces, so someone else should pick an entry point there. If you're interested in his game pieces, you can't go wrong with the Hat Cobra. The first Naked City (on Nonesuch) is the best place to start with the thrash core. The Big Gundown and Filmworks II are good place to start for more controlled/composed group pieces. Bar Kokhba is amazing and beautiful, but not representative of anything else he's done to date. > >* Is this super-heavy Zorn guy really as old as/older than my dad? > He was born in 1953. How old's your dad? >* Are there other cool saxophone players? > Tons. John Butcher, Tim Berne, Peter van Bergen, Peter Brotzmann, Mats Gustafsson are some great younger players, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, and Albert Ayler are among the legends of the previous generation. > > >! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! >ARE THESE QUESTIONS RELEVANT TO THE ZORN-LIST FAQ? > >* Did the singer of the Boredoms change his name? > > In 1996 Yamatsuka Eye changed his name to Yamantaka Eye. > [Didn't Zorn do something similar?] > >* Who is Scummy? > >* Who is Buckethead? > If these questions are indeed frequently asked, the answers are probably relevant for the FAQ. > >! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! >ARE THESE QUESTIONS OF A TOO PERSONAL NATURE? > >* I hear that Zorn and Eugene Chadbourne broke up because Zorn ripped off > Eugene, and now they hate eachother. Is that true? > > The question can probably be phrased to remove the personal bias (like 'and they no longer work together'), which would then be more relevant to Zorn's musical career and less to his personal life. -- Caleb T. Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com ;; For every complex question there is a simple answer. ;; And it is wrong. (H. L. Mencken) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dennis summers Subject: University: a big waste of time Date: 25 Jan 1997 11:53:51 -0700 (MST) >From: BIRD BRAIN >Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:09:36 -0500 >Subject: Zorn a fake > After that moment I lost respect for this teacher, and >soon left that school. I wonder if the opinions have changed recently among >the faculty in our higher learning institutions. Any thoughts, or experiences? >If opinions have changed I would like to know, 'cause I'd like to go back to school, >but I need instrutors who love the music of Dolphy, Coltrane, Ornette, >and Zorn to name a few. Speaking as an exhibiting visual artist, who did go to college (incl. grad school) I'd bet that there may be only one or two schools in the whole country likely to give you that support. In the visual arts end of things, there is just so much jostling for position going on, that the more "contemporary" the artist, the less likely s/he will be to support you in anything even more contemporary. One of the highlights of my grad career was listening to Frank Zappa. The Composers Society of America (or some group of some similar name) was having their national meeting at OSU, and Zappa of all people was the keynote speaker. I told the class that I was teaching at that time, that we were going to go and listen to Zappa, as he was likely to teach them more in an hour than I would all term long. One of his comments which I think particularly pertinent to Bird Brain, was "All of you college music composers are in shit up to your chins and saying don't make waves." It seems to me Bird Brain, that with the extraordinary availability of music, taking Frank's example, and just doing it on your own is the best advice. Schools have a way of diminishing creativity. They are however, a good place to make connections, if you are a good networker, and want to become rich (ha) and famous. yours --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: University: a big waste of time Date: 25 Jan 1997 11:18:33 -0800 >>From: BIRD BRAIN > >> After that moment I lost respect for this teacher, and >>soon left that school. I wonder if the opinions have changed recently among >>the faculty in our higher learning institutions. Any thoughts, or experiences? > >>If opinions have changed I would like to know, 'cause I'd like to go back >to school, >but I need instrutors who love the music of Dolphy, Coltrane, >Ornette, >>and Zorn to name a few. The idea that school exists to teach someone about what one likes is likely to lead one not to go to school. The primary value I see in my formal education, which ended about 17 years ago after more schools than I can remember, is that I learned about the things I didn't like, and why I didn't like them. Occasionally I learned to like the things I didn't like. And more than anything, I learned about thinking and technique rather than specifics. After all, to understand the outside, you need to understand the inside. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: zorn faq Date: 25 Jan 1997 15:13:11 -0500 (EST) On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Caleb Deupree wrote: > >From: rizzi@netcom.com (m. rizzi) > >Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:27:23 -0800 (PST) > > > > > >* What's a "game piece"? > > *SNIP* > It differs from contemporary classical > aleatory music (Cage, Stockhausen, Pousseur) and conduction (Butch Morris) > in the complete absence of any notated musical notes of any kind. First, do Morris's conductions always involve notated notes? I know this is the case with the David Murray Big Band, but I thought not on some of Morris' own records. Second, I recall someone mentioning on this list an unrecorded Zorn game piece which required/allowed players to write down brief bits of notation and impose them on other players at certain points in the game. > >* Are there other cool saxophone players? > > > > Tons. John Butcher, Tim Berne, Peter van Bergen, Peter Brotzmann, Mats > Gustafsson are some great younger players, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, and > Albert Ayler are among the legends of the previous generation. As a legend from the sixties, I'd think Brotzmann belongs in the latter category, along with Steve Lacy, Evan Parker, Ornette Coleman, Frank Lowe, Anthony Braxton, Roscoe Mitchell, Joseph Jarman, Oliver Lake. Maybe Lee Konitz. (This is of course not an exhaustive list of cool players; I'm just trying to think of Zorn-related figures here.) I'm blanking right now on younger players. Charles Gayle might plausibly be listed on either side, as he's only recently started recording. Chris Hamilton chhst9+@pitt.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: University: a big waste of time Date: 25 Jan 1997 15:51:56 -0400 I've just finished the first semester of my return to grad school, and probably am looking at 4 more to get my D.M.A. One of the biggest reasons I decided to do it was for the discipline and training - both so that I could be respected as a performer and have the facility to perform with solid technique so I don't hurt my voice, not to mention attempt to be a professional musician. The truly contemporary and cutting-edge performing and composition I do has almost no connection with what I'm doing in classes, but since I'm so interested in progressive stage performance, I spend extra time doing and researching it. At the same time, I'm a firm believer in the tenent of knowing the rules before you can break or bend them (though I often must boost my motivation by reminding myself of this). It's especially true in my case because you can do serious damage to your voice if you don't know how to use it correctly, and contemporary vocal music/performance tends to call for using the voice in odd ways that highten the risks. When I get out of school, I'll probably continue to sing opera as part of the profession, but I won't let the interest in contemporary music fall to the wayside. So I guess the message is that healthy technique and good musicianship should be learned, and if you truly have enough interest in the contemporary facets of your instrument, then you'll find ways to study them and make time for them. The University environment is good because you find others with similar interests and can learn a great deal from the experiences of your teachers. But then again, University study just doesn't work for everybody, and you have to do it on your own. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s university of maryland http://www.butterfly.net/mozart school of music | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Robert Lloyd? Date: 25 Jan 1997 20:34:04 -0800 I recently happened onto a 1993 recording of a NYC guitarist named Robert Lloyd. Sonny Sharrock plays with Lloyd, so I figure this list is as good as anywhere to ask if anyone knows anything about Lloyd. The disc is called _Think About Brooklyn_ and also has Bill Laswell, Anton Fier, and a few other people on it. The music is mostly bluesy jazz improv, with some spoken word stuff. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: zorn faq Date: 26 Jan 1997 10:12:52 -0500 (EST) At 03:13 PM 1/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > >As a legend from the sixties, I'd think Brotzmann belongs in the latter >category, along with Steve Lacy, Evan Parker, Ornette Coleman, Frank Lowe, >Anthony Braxton, Roscoe Mitchell, Joseph Jarman, Oliver Lake. Maybe Lee >Konitz. (This is of course not an exhaustive list of cool players; I'm >just trying to think of Zorn-related figures here.) I'm blanking right >now on younger players. Charles Gayle might plausibly be listed on either >side, as he's only recently started recording. > Yeah, after I hit the send button I thought that Brotzmann was not really among the 'younger' players, but as compared to Coltrane, Ayler and Dolphy, Brotzmann has released some inspired recordings in the last couple of years (Dried Rat-Dog and Die like a Dog come to mind). And Gayle's the same generation, born around 1940. But I think we agree on the main point, that for the FAQ question on other cool sax players, there is a potentially very long list to which we could all add our favorites. >I recall someone mentioning on this list an unrecorded Zorn game >piece which required/allowed players to write down brief bits of notation >and impose them on other players at certain points in the game. I wasn't aware of the notation in Zorn's game pieces. I have an old vinyl copy of Archery, but the liner notes don't mention anything there about method. I admit that my description was based primarily on Cobra, which I like better than the Archery recording anyway. On Morris, perhaps a better distinction would be that there is more sonic intent in Morris' conductions, whereas the only intent in Cobra is structural. -- Caleb T. Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com ;; For every complex question there is a simple answer. ;; And it is wrong. (H. L. Mencken) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kmurren@wesleyan.edu (keefe murren) Subject: Sanctuary Date: 26 Jan 1997 13:29:59 -0500 I've seen sanctuary twice now: once at the end of '95 and then this past show on the 29th of december. Both times the instrumentation was the same. drums,bass, trumpet, two samplers, trombone, and sax/clarinette. I'm not exactly sure of all the performers, but there was deffinately anthony coleman, chris speed, yuka honda, and dave douglas and ben perowski. The difference between the two performances was the rythm section. The second time i saw it there was a different drummer and bassist. Another difference was that the second time douglas used an elaborate and ineffective conglomeration of electronics and effects. The sound the group gets is hard to characterize. They move through composed and improvised sections slowly. The piece takes its time to develop (that doesn't mean it's boring). After exploring various imporvisations and composed sections the two players on samplers start to have a more pronounced role even improvising a section as a duo. Yuka Honda busts a few beats and the players improvise around that. Speed, Coleman, douglas and the trombone player each get extended solos and the drummer gets a couple of breaks, but the piece tends toward ensemble playing. i wish there was something i could compare it to, but there isn't. I will say that i liked it much more the first time. The beats the first time were better and so were the drummer and bassist. YOu may very well differ on this point. hope this helps. i'm curious what other people have to say about this piece. keefe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: University: a big waste of time Date: 26 Jan 1997 13:07:12 -0800 At 11:18 AM 1/25/97, Jeff Spirer wrote: >>>From: BIRD BRAIN >> >>> After that moment I lost respect for this teacher, and >>>soon left that school. I wonder if the opinions have changed recently among >>>the faculty in our higher learning institutions. Any thoughts, or >experiences? >> >>>If opinions have changed I would like to know, 'cause I'd like to go back >>to school, >but I need instrutors who love the music of Dolphy, Coltrane, >>Ornette, >>>and Zorn to name a few. > My university music experience turned out completely different. I went to Oregon State University, a mostly science and engineering school, not at all known for it's music dept., much less jazz. But since music was a low priority at the school, the jazz teacher was not a university-type at all, but a local jazz musician, Rob Blakeslee, a very fine trumpeter with deep connections to the west coast avant jazz world. Check out his records on 9-winds, if you're interested, "Lng Narrows" is especially fine. Anyway, I consider the education I got studying with Rob to be far superior to what I would have gotten at a bigger school. We were taught the traditional jazz harmonic vocabulary, but also to develop our own voice, to explore different approaches to improvising, we studied tunes by Ayler, Ornette, Vinny Golia, etc, and we played way more student compositions than standards, each student was encouraged to write. Mainly, we were forced to be *musicians*, not students. Unfortunately, Blakeslee no longer teaches at OSU, budget cus eliominated his position last year. But, there are good teachers out there , you just have to look for them. >The idea that school exists to teach someone about what one likes is likely >to lead one not to go to school. The primary value I see in my formal >education, which ended about 17 years ago after more schools than I can >remember, is that I learned about the things I didn't like, and why I didn't >like them. Occasionally I learned to like the things I didn't like. And >more than anything, I learned about thinking and technique rather than >specifics. > >After all, to understand the outside, you need to understand the inside. > We did study the outside on on equal footing with the inside. This offended a number of players who just wanted to learn the standards. But a lot of students who wouldn't have ever played free improv otherwise developed a taste for it. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: University: a big waste of time Date: 26 Jan 1997 20:57:47 -0500 (EST) > The idea that school exists to teach someone about what one likes is likely > to lead one not to go to school. The primary value I see in my formal > education, which ended about 17 years ago after more schools than I can > remember, is that I learned about the things I didn't like, and why I didn't > like them. Occasionally I learned to like the things I didn't like. And > more than anything, I learned about thinking and technique rather than > specifics. The most important thing university taught me was that i didn't really want to go to university to learn what i wanted to... -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: University: a big waste of time Date: 26 Jan 1997 21:06:51 -0500 (EST) On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > I've just finished the first semester of my return to grad school, and > probably am looking at 4 more to get my D.M.A. One of the biggest reasons I > decided to do it was for the discipline and training - both so that I could This makes sense. I just want to add an alternative option - find a teacher you respect a lot. If they teach in a university, go there, but if they don't, ask if you can learn from them anyway. As a music prof in my first (and only) full term of university said: "take your begging bowl, and find someone who will teach you what you want to learn. Become an expert on your instrument first, and then go and study music history and theory or what-have-you afterward if you still desire to." -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Sanctuary Date: 26 Jan 1997 21:09:53 -0500 (EST) i saw sanctuary over the christmas holidays of 1995. I wasn't really struck by the piece, but it wasn't bad, either. To me, it sounded as though it could almost make a good soundtrack to something... -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Zorn at Carnegie Hall Date: 26 Jan 1997 21:34:30 -0500 (EST) Did anybody out there see the Carnegie Hall debut of ZORN, FRISELL, JOEY BARON, etc?? They played a couple of Sundays ago, and the was some sort of lecture before the show. I am really curious. IOUaLive1@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Daves Sanctuary Date: 26 Jan 1997 21:34:28 -0500 I saw the performance of this (the first?) on December 27th, 1995, when this group opened for Masada. I thought it was incredible. The drummer was Dougie Bowne, and he was wild! James Genus played upright bass. I wish I had a recording of it, because I cant really recall any specifics about it, but I liked it! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Zorn at Carnegie Hall Date: 26 Jan 1997 22:34:17 -0500 (EST) > Did anybody out there see the Carnegie Hall debut of ZORN, FRISELL, JOEY > BARON, etc?? They played a couple of Sundays ago, and the was some sort of > lecture before the show. I am really curious. Carnegie hall?!? -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kmurren@wesleyan.edu (keefe j murren) Subject: Carnegie Hall Date: 27 Jan 1997 01:08:51 -0500 Sorry if this is long, but... I saw the performance at carnegie hall on january 12. If i could find the play bill i would post exactly what was performed, but perhaps someone else can provide that. Of the pieces played however, zorn's was the most interesting. It was concieved as a requiem for 7 different people who have ment something to him. He mentioned a few in the pre-performance discussion:John Cassavetes, marlene dietrich, his dad, francis bacon,and three others. (again perhaps someone else can fill in the blanks). The performance was given by the American Composers Orchestra and zorn's work was comissioned by Stephen Drury--the pianist who performed it. The first piece played was written by a professor at Princeton named Mackey and involved Joey Baron and Bill Frisell improvising against fixed orchestra arrangements. Frankly speaking i was unimpressed by the piece as a whole. There were points where the groove was pretty cool and as always Joey Baron stole the show--even from Frisell. Frisell seemed preocupied with switches and knobbs though he had some truly lyrical passages. All in all, I would have prefered to hear Frisell and Baron blow minus the orchestra. THe next piece was by a composer named Sessions that I don't remember well enough to comment except that i wasn't really moved by it. then there was a Low Harrison arrangement of a John Cage piece for Toy Piano and finally zorn's Requia For Piano and Orchestra. Zorn's piece was at least exciting and at best truly compelling. It employed a lot of extended techniques like bowing cymbals and claping hands. He had boy sapranos for the Francis Bacon section and brought the percusionists out for the section devoted i believe to a flamenco dancer whose name i can't recall. The piano parts were amazing and stephen Drury was incredible. He danced all over the keyboard in lightning fast bursts. (He wore an oversize white sport jacket and white slacks plus some white tennis shoes and a wacky tie). Zorn said his approach to orchestration and composition when writing for orchestra was to treat the ensemble as a potential group of smaller ensembles or chamber groups. He had various members of the orchestra playing with each other at various points in the piece even employing duos and solos. He also wrote out all the parts. As far as i could gather there was no improvisation. He didn't directly say that Drury was not at all imporivising though i got the idea that his part was completely written out as well. The piece was deffinately good. As a whole it was slow and contemplative. Zorn deffinately got reactions of excitement from the crowd. I would like to hear more from zorn in this department. --By the way does anybody know anything about zorn's other compositions commissioned by Drury? Are they available? i hope this helps. keefe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: oger@worldnet.fr (Jacques Oger) Subject: Paris 1992 concert Date: 27 Jan 1997 11:33:08 +0100 I was there. I mean the Paris 1992 concert everybody is talking about (Houdini-De Sade). It took place on april, 22. In fact it was not in Paris but very near : in Saint-Ouen (a town in the proletarian suburbs, we call it "the red belt or red suburbs" because many inhabitants vote for the communist party) during a festival called "Blue Suburbs" :-). This always lasting festival is sponsorized by the mayors of several towns of this suburb (all of them are communists). But most of people who are attending the concerts come from Paris. Especially for this Zorn concert. So we can say that taxes paid by the workers in these poor towns are used to organize concerts for the rich parisian people. I hope some other french guys are reading this message, maybe they don't agree with this a little provocative point of view, just let me know, directly if you want. Well, what to say about this concert ? Of course it was very provocative. Patrice gave some details. The videos (musicians on stage couldn't see them) on 2 little TV sets (JZ asked bigger ones, but it was refused) showed lesbianism/SM and scatology. JZ wanted all people to leave the concert. It didn't occur. On the first rows, there were (near the videos) the official guests : the mayor of the city, people with great responsabilities in the culture ministery government, sponsors VIPs=8A So you understand why there was some trouble in the air ! To my point of view, at this time, I would prefer the music played live by Naked City. The musicians were : A. Lindsay (voice, readings), B. Frisell (guit), F. Frith (bass), Anthony Coleman and Steve Dury (synth), W. Winant (perc), J. Baron (dms), Mike Patton (screams). John Zorn didn'play at all. Maybe he was tired because he had played just before (first part with Painkiller - B. Laswell, M. Harris). The trio (BF,FF,JB) finished the concert with the piece called "Leng Tch'e". That was good (easy listening). I was told that some musician(s) on stage didn't know about the porn videos. It's hard to believe, but who knows ? So JZ has a provocative reputation in Paris and France. Of course, His last concert (with Masada) was very different. =46or people who like to read french, there is a good article in "Le Monde" (issued on january 27 1997) about the true story of Masada. Jacques ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DANIEL BITTON Subject: Re: University: a big waste of time Date: 27 Jan 1997 12:25:16 -0500 (EST) Music at university is a pretty retarded concept, at least the way it's done most places. You take a bunch of unrelated courses that attack you with different knowledge from five different places at once instead of developing them all in an integrated manner, but for me as a self-taught musician it's been important for me to take some courses just to see what I need to teach myself, and how not to teach it to myself. I mean if you're trying to be an improviser you've gotta spend all day sitting around lifting solos off records and blowing your own solos, learning how to hear and how to familiarize yourself with your instrument enough so that your hands say what your brain thinks before you're even aware of it so it's like you hands are doing the thinking. It's like developing a second mouth. Theory and harmony are important, but the best way to learn them is to dissect whatever thing you happen to be passionately in love with and studying on your horn that way you're just putting names on concepts that your ear already hears. That way if you're studying a solo of a tune that makes you cry you're learning technique and therory al at the same time in an integrated manner. School tends to throw you the harmony vs the technique from completely different almost unrelated angles and you absorb them all at once working on assignments for each subject instead of one assignment or study integrating all subjects, so you don't get the time to focus or digest until later which doesn't allow for developing your own voice and methods of thinking and hearing, which is what being an imporviser in the jazzthing gerne is all about. Yusef Lateef says something like (I'm quoting from memory) My goal as a teacher is to provide students with certain ideas and concepts so as to motivate them to teach themselves what they desire to know. Ain't he hip? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Risser Subject: Re: Zorn a fake? Date: 27 Jan 1997 13:46:42 -0500 -- [ From: Peter Risser * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- I know it's a late entry, but still, the feeling is the same. The question here is, is Zorn a fake, not is he good or bad. The answer lies in the definition of fake. Fake, I assume, means someone who is pretending to be someone he is not. This does not apply to Zorn. I don't think he has ever represented himself as anyone besides a guy who loves music. And to this end, I think he is very real. Whether he is a good or bad player, is irrelevant at that point. Milli Vanilli were fakes. John Zorn, not a fake. In the meantime, Peter -- ===================== Group 42, Inc. www.group42.com (513) 831-3400 ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: Zorn at KF Date: 27 Jan 1997 18:09:00 PST >Feb. 1 The Short Films of Henry Hills >Naked City videos: Gotham, Osaka Bondage, Ignaceous Ejaculation > plus Heretic and The Little Lieutenant of the Loving God > (All Zorn soundtracks, though Zorn himself isn't expected to show.) >Feb. 9 Painkiller (with Ted Epstein subbing for Mick Harris) >Feb 21 Zorn and Yamataka Eye (that's evidently the new "official" spelling >of Eye's name, Zorn spelled it out very slowly for me...) >March 2 Zorn and Arto Lindsay (on a bill with Mainliner and Ruins) Does anyone from the Philadelphia (or Jersey - on the way) area plan (or interested) in going to any of these? I'd love to go, but never being in NYC makes me leary of driving there. Respond to me privately. Also, is there anyway for us to obtain these short films? Matt Walsh mattw@smginc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: serpentine Date: 27 Jan 1997 20:02:10 -0800 (PST) the Hans Bennick (sp?) and Dave Douglas album was just reviewed on NPR tonight. sounds excellent. is this the one that was released on SoulNote a few months ago which was so difficult to find? hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hywel davies Subject: masada 4 - now available? Date: 28 Jan 1997 11:29:45 -0800 i don't want to get your hopes up but feb.'s issue of 'the wire' has an ad from depth charge records (106132.1203@compuserve.com) offering MASADA 4 for sale - anybody any news?! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: N Vassiliou Subject: Re: masada 4 - now available? Date: 28 Jan 1997 14:18:36 GMT > i don't want to get your hopes up but feb.'s issue of 'the wire' has an > ad from depth charge records (106132.1203@compuserve.com) offering MASADA > 4 for sale - anybody any news?! is that Depth Charge Records in York, UK? I go there quite often and I haven't noticed anything... Nick V... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lgiven@julian.uwo.ca (Lisa Given) Subject: Re:Serpentine Date: 28 Jan 1997 09:31:10 -0500 (EST) Serpentine is on Songlines, the small Canadian label that also released the first Tiny Bell disc. It is a great album. Finally, a recording session which comes close to capturing Bennink's energy. Having seen him a couple of times, I am always disappointed with recordings of him (not that they aren't good, but he always seems more subdued than on stage). Serpentine, recorded in a studio, has him ranging from his array of tiny percussive things to some of the best all out bashing I have heard him do. I recommend this disc to anyone. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: treif@songlines.com (Tony Reif) Subject: Re:Serpentine Date: 28 Jan 1997 11:56:55 +0000 >Serpentine is on Songlines, the small Canadian label that also released the >first Tiny Bell disc. > >It is a great album. Finally, a recording session which comes close to >capturing Bennink's energy. Having seen him a couple of times, I am always >disappointed with recordings of him (not that they aren't good, but he >always seems more subdued than on stage). Serpentine, recorded in a studio, >has him ranging from his array of tiny percussive things to some of the best >all out bashing I have heard him do. I recommend this disc to anyone. > >Dan Not to mention some really nice brushwork on a couple of old standards... Since this small Canadian label has been lurking on Zorn-list for some months, maybe it's time to say hello. And if I could put in a plug for some other fine artists such as Ellery Eskelin, Ben Monder, Andy Laster, BABKAS, Patrick Zimmerli (whose Slines CD Kevin Whitehead reviewed on Fresh Air in November), Paul Plimley, Human Feel, Rob Reddy, Francois Houle, who all have CDs on Slines.... Anyone who'd like more info can email me offlist for a descriptive catalog and/or bibliography by artist of reviews etc. Two more things. The Plimley disc is an ECD and may be of interest to musicians on the list who are working with non-traditional grooves. The CD-ROM portion, which btw has won a bunch of important multimedia awards, includes a piece called Rhythm Runes with specific directions for rehearsal and small-group performance and an interactive demo. There's also an introductory compilation out, The Songlines Anthology, which includes otherwise unreleased takes and sessions of most of the Slines artists and some guests. It's not just a thrown together sampler though and has been getting really good reviews. As our CDs may be hard to find currently in the stores (although our new distributor, Allegro, should be getting them out there starting in a couple of weeks), I'd like to make the following special offer to anyone on the list: order 2 Songlines CDs and get the sampler free. Or, if you just want to hear the Anthology for now, send me $10 and I'll apply the savings to a future order of two or more CDs. Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lgiven@julian.uwo.ca (Lisa Given) Subject: Re:Serpentine Date: 28 Jan 1997 15:15:40 -0500 (EST) >Since this small Canadian label has been lurking on Zorn-list for some >months, maybe it's time to say hello. And if I could put in a plug for some >other fine artists such as Ellery Eskelin, Ben Monder, Andy Laster, BABKAS, >Patrick Zimmerli (whose Slines CD Kevin Whitehead reviewed on Fresh Air in >November), Paul Plimley, Human Feel, Rob Reddy, Francois Houle, who all >have CDs on Slines.... I didn't know yopu were on this list Tony, or would have left the description of Serpentine to you. As for the rest of the label (I think I have all the releases) all are exceptional. There are none which I wouldn't recommend to anyone on this list, or anyone interested in the current state of jazz/improvised music. The standout for me, alongside Serpentine, is the Ellery Eskelin disc. If anyone is interested in taking advantage of Tony's deal of buying two and getting the sampler free, I would recommend Serpentine and the Eskelin as a great intro to one of the best labels around (a little Canadian pride coming through here :)). And the sampler is the best buy I have heard of for a label compilation, as the material is all unavailable elsewhere. Worth having if only for the 10 minute Tiny Bell track. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stefan.Negele@munich.netsurf.de (Stefan Negele) Subject: bungle list/zorn-mori-patton/help Date: 28 Jan 1997 23:03:11 MEZ > Does anyone have the address for the Mr Bungle list? There's one official one (where Trey Spruance sends out any infos on his current projects) write to mimicry@humboldt1.com to get on that one. and there's that Caca Volante mailing list, which also features Faith No More, John Zorn or basically any related. the address for that one is "majordomo@optera.com" (as usual with Majordomo, send "s ubscribe cv-list" to that address to get on the list. WARNING: It's pretty much screwed up at the moment, means we get double posts and shit like that, hopefully someone fixes that pretty soon. Saw john Zorn jan 17 with Ikue Mori and Mike Patton @ Slim's in SF. It was an 'okay show'. I got somehow the feeling that they were just goofing around and just doing some stuff to kill some time. Ikue Mori created some awesome effects with.. ummm.. whatever she had. a drum machine or something. I couldn't see that thing and she was barely moving. just sitting there and pressing some buttons. Patton as usual just screamed and created some sound effects with his little keyboard and feed back box. it gets pretty redundant after seeing that a couple of times. John zorn again.. hate to say it.. 'as usual' added a little sax squeak here and a little improv scream there. the only amazing thing he did was a 10min straight sax solo towards the end of the second set. he tried to tell the soundboard guy to turn up the volume before he started it and the next time he could talk to someone or give instructions was 10 mins later. the encore had just patton putting a tape in and adding some keyboards meldies to it. after that a bunch of quiet giggeling emerging into a load scream and some noise. also the good old feedback thing was there, before the show ended. all in all I wasn't that excited about it and being able to compare such a thing I'd prefer the Slusser/Patton/Bennink thing I saw last august in Saalfelden (Austria). that one was way more listenable, but then again.. listenable doesn't automatically mean good. oh well.. Finally, I'd like to get more info on Zorn shows from the past. I'm doing this database thing with Faith No More and Mr.Bungle (live shows reviews and setlist and whatever else there is) at http://cv.org/database and as you might see there's also a John Zorn section. I know there are many other Zorn pages on the net but I haven't seen one who covers that live stuff, so anyone who wants to be a part of that thing send setlists/show dates reviews of shows or whatever else you want to share about John Zorn to me and I'll add it to the database. I appreciate your help. Thanks for reading. Stefan -- EMail: Stefan.Negele@munich.netsurf.de Stefan.Negele@mch.sni.de WWW: http://munich.netsurf.de/Stefan.Negele http://cv.org/database ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Subject: Re: Carnegie Hall Date: 28 Jan 1997 17:44:22 -0500 (EST) the description of this show sounds really interesting...are there any plans to immortalise this musical creation on little shiney plastic discs? That's probably the only way i could hear it. -jascha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: Zorn at KF Date: 28 Jan 1997 18:50:22 -0500 Matt Walsh wrote: >>Feb. 9 Painkiller (with Ted Epstein subbing for Mick Harris) >Does anyone from the Philadelphia (or Jersey - on the way) area plan (or >interested) in going to any of these? I know I posted this once before, but just to be VERY certain since I got a call from someone planning to drive in from Atlantic City... the Painkiller gig is definitely off, Laswell wasn't available. As soon as I know what Zorn will be doing that day I'll post it. Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Subject: Re: Carnegie Hall Date: 28 Jan 1997 18:50:13 -0500 >the description of this show sounds really interesting...are there any >plans to immortalise this musical creation on little shiney plastic discs? >That's probably the only way i could hear it. > >-jascha Couldn't tell you about the Mackey piece, although I know Nonesuch has no plans for it at the present (they've already got Frisell's next two albums in the can, the next one being the "notorious" country music album recorded with Wayne Horvitz in Nashville). The Zorn piano and orchestra piece is being recorded (or perhaps was recorded live) for Tzadik. Probably won't be released before fall or later, my guess. Frisell fans, by the way, should pick up the new issue of GQ (!) for a pretty great Frisell article. And if that sounds bizarre, wait till you see the upcoming William Parker feature in Esquire (!!!). Steve Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kmurren@wesleyan.edu (keefe j murren) Subject: Requia for Piano and Orchestra @ Carnegie Date: 28 Jan 1997 19:24:00 -0500 On Tuesday Jan. 28 Jascha wrote in reference to the Carnegie Hall piece: >are there any plans to immortalise this musical creation on little shiney >>plastic discs? >That's probably the only way i could hear it. An article on Stephen Drury the New YOrk Times said that the concert at Carnegie Hall of Zorn's Requia for Piano and Orchestra was being recorded for Avant. I'm clueless as to the expected release date though past experience with Avant makes me sceptical about it ever being released (New Traditions). keefe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Josh Miller Subject: ribot Date: 30 Jan 1997 01:44:56 -0800 this may sound like a stupid question, but could anyone tell me how to pronounce marc ribot's last name? see, i do this little college radio show and i want to play stuff from the rootless cosmopolitans record, but it's pretty embarassing when you don't know how to pronounce a name. i'd appreciate it if someone could help me out. thanks a lot. josh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M.Ho" Subject: Re: ribot Date: 30 Jan 1997 9:45:14 EST It's pronounced "ree-bo". > > this may sound like a stupid question, but could anyone tell me how to > pronounce marc ribot's last name? see, i do this little college radio > show and i want to play stuff from the rootless cosmopolitans record, > but it's pretty embarassing when you don't know how to pronounce a name. > i'd appreciate it if someone could help me out. thanks a lot. > > josh > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M.Ho" Subject: Re: Daves Sanctuary Date: 30 Jan 1997 12:53:40 EST > > I saw the performance of this (the first?) on December 27th, 1995, when this > group opened for Masada. I thought it was incredible. The drummer was > Dougie Bowne, and he was wild! James Genus played upright bass. I wish I > had a recording of it, because I cant really recall any specifics about it, > but I liked it! > > > I am crazy about Dougie Bowne's drumming. Does anyone know what he's been up to for the past several years? All I have is stuff he did with John Lurie and the Lounge Lizards and also Kazutoki Umezu. -Mary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim McLoughlin Subject: Re: Daves Sanctuary Date: 30 Jan 1997 13:45:07 -0500 (EST) > I am crazy about Dougie Bowne's drumming. Does anyone know what he's > been up to for the past several years? All I have is stuff he did > with John Lurie and the Lounge Lizards and also Kazutoki Umezu. > -Mary I recently acquired Dougie Bowne's album "One Way Elevator". It's a Japanese release (I forget the label) featuring John Medeski on piano and Fred Hopkins on Bass. They were selling it at the Knitting Factory in December - I bought it before seeing Greg Cohen's septet (w/ zorn, to add list relevant content). Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jason Caulfield Bivins Date: 30 Jan 1997 15:39:22 -0500 (EST) Okay, I may be opening up a big can of worms here but here goes: can someone give me the scoop on Keiji Haino?? Since he's got a release on both Avant and Tzadik, I figure this is a legit question. Let me say that all I've heard are the Tzadik release (I was disappointed) and a PSF disc with Barre Phillips and some percussionist (which I found mediocre). The reason I'm so curious is that the press I've encountered tends to describe him as an all-out skronker, a sonic terrorist, etc. Any hints, suggestions, descriptions? And by the way, regarding Steve's message latest message: William Parker in "Esquire"???? Jason Bivins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kmurren@wesleyan.edu (keefe j murren) Subject: the kitchen Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:24:10 -0500 Hey guys, Can someone send me the address and phone # of the kitchen. it doesn't seem to be on their web site. thanks, keefe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: the kitchen Date: 30 Jan 1997 13:33:05 -0800 On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:24:10 -0500 keefe j murren wrote: > > Hey guys, > Can someone send me the address and phone # of the kitchen. it doesn't > seem to be on their web site. Maybe you can try their e-mail address: The Kitchen Phillip Bahar e-mail: kitchen@panix.com www: http://www.panix.com/kitchen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: martinj@SONOMA.EDU Subject: I missed it Date: 30 Jan 1997 13:56:30 -0800 (PST) Ok, I know there was a track listing for masada 4 that went around a little while ago, but I don't have it saved anymore. My email went a bit wakcy. If anyone still has it could they send it to me? Thanks. j (I know...as if you hadn't heard enough about masada 4 by now...) martinj@sonoma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mr R Teh Subject: Re: Daves Sanctuary Date: 31 Jan 1997 09:16:29 +1100 (EST) > I recently acquired Dougie Bowne's album "One Way Elevator". It's >a Japanese release (I forget the label) featuring John Medeski on piano >and Fred Hopkins on Bass. They were selling it at the Knitting Factory in >December - I bought it before seeing Greg Cohen's septet (w/ zorn, to add >list relevant content). Bowne is also on Cassandra Wilson's Blue Note release "Moon River Daughter". Highly recommended!! I believe he's also on a couple of other Blue Note releases. Richie Teh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gsg@juno.com (Geoff S Gersh) Subject: Carnegie Hall Date: 30 Jan 1997 19:53:26 PST hello..... the Steve Mackey piece that was performed is called 'DEAL'. In reference to Frisell and Baron 'dealing' with the different playing situations that arise in the piece. Or maybe it was Mackey haveing to 'deal' with the disturbances in his workplace.....geeses, dog, phone ringing.......that was worked into the piece. I forgot what he said at the preconcert talk. I thought that Baron and Frisell blended in with the orch very well...quoting certain passages...adding texture....I was deffinately paying alot of attention to F&B and not the orchestra....so, i can't really comment that much on what I thought about the orchestral part of the piece. Hopefully a recording will come out soon.....i think the world premiere performance was recorded, the one done in LA last year.... The Zorn piece was also written for John Cage, Oliver Messian....and.....the memory fails me again. The use of percussion in this piece was very cool. and the boy soprano's...... >From what I read in the NYTimes....the performance was recorded for an AVANT release. To me, its a piece that needs to be heard a few times to really absorb whats going on, well, thats my opinion for myself....I need to hear this a couple of more times....but i like what i have heard so far. Other Zorn pieces to look out for.....that S. Drury has done, a solo piano piece called Carny. an orchestral piece for the Brooklyn Philharmonic-'For Your Eyes Only' kind of like a Naked City tune for orchestra....i know that the Kronos Qt. has done a piece of his called the Dead Man....anyone know if its been recorded?? by anyone? i saw the last few seconds of it done by the Sirius Qt. a while back...... so, Jan. 12 at Carnegie Hall, for me, was a good one......lots of new music in the air..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Carnegie Hall Date: 30 Jan 1997 22:44:04 -0700 > -'For Your Eyes Only' kind of like a Naked City tune for > orchestra....i know that the Kronos Qt. has done a piece of his called > the Dead Man....anyone know if its been recorded?? by anyone? i saw the > last few seconds of it done by the Sirius Qt. a while back...... > 'For Your Eyes Only' was recorded in 91 by the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra, and it's nice. I heard Kronos do the 'Dead Man' piece, and I thought it was fantastic--my favorite of Zorn's string quartets. -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Newgarden Subject: re: requia / dougie bowne Date: 31 Jan 1997 05:06:36 -0500 (EST) Zorn's Requia for Piano and Orchestra was recorded by Tzadik in a studio two days after the Carnegie Hall concert. Release date TBA. Filmworks 3 (March) & 4 (May), New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands (March), Naked City Blackbox (May) will be out meanwhile. Numerous 'long-awaited' Avant titles are finally being recorded this year... Re: Dougie Bowne DIW recently released Dougie Bowne's first album as a composer/leader, "One Way Elevator", which is a really wonderful jazz trio with John Medeski (piano) and Fred Hopkins (bass) [Zorn - exec producer]. Since the Lounge Lizards, some of Dougie's notable recordings have been with Cassandra Wilson, Alfred 23 Harth, Arto Lindsay, Hoppy Komiyama, Holly Cole Trio, Chris Whitley (drumming and some producing), Dave Douglas (forthcoming Sanctuary album on Avant)...and some completely anonymous session gigs for very huge rock bands with lousy drummers... Pre-Lounge Lizards, Bowne played for a couple of years with Iggy Pop (ca.Party) and John Cale. Sadly, Dougie has recently suffered from a nearly crippling illness but he's making steady progress in his recovery. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DR S WILKIE Subject: masada 4 Date: 31 Jan 1997 10:55:33 GMT0BST well, it looks like masada 4 is avaialable in feb. harmonia mundi's ad in 'the wire'mention masada 1-7(they are the uk dist.) [ don't know about the US arrangements...] -now you can all rush out and pay full price for three tracks;( does this mean altering the FAQ?!) harmonia mundi (uk) are at info.uk@harmoniamundi.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DR S WILKIE Subject: a fistfull of yen... Date: 31 Jan 1997 13:48:34 GMT0BST okay,no-one has to buy them,but why are Diw charging full price for 20'of music(masada 4),and is the naked city 'black box'going to be 1 or 2 cds?-don't we already have 'torture garden' on grand guignol ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Rath Subject: Re: Date: 31 Jan 1997 09:06:29 -0600 At 03:39 PM 1/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >Okay, I may be opening up a big can of worms here but here goes: can >someone give me the scoop on Keiji Haino?? Since he's got a release on >both Avant and Tzadik, I figure this is a legit question. Let me say that >all I've heard are the Tzadik release (I was disappointed) and a PSF disc >with Barre Phillips and some percussionist (which I found mediocre). The >reason I'm so curious is that the press I've encountered tends to >describe him as an all-out skronker, a sonic terrorist, etc. Any hints, >suggestions, descriptions? He definitely has different moods, depending on which disc you pick up. As of last count on Dave Keffer's web page (http://www.cems.umn.edu/~keffer/), he has (or plays on) about 64 albums, most in the last four or five years. If you want to hear some of his "all-out skronking, sonic terror" check out EXECRATION THAT ACCEPT TO ACKNOWLEDGE, which I think is on Forced Exposure. Or check out his Fushitsusha stuff, probably PATHETIQUE (on PSF) or THE WOUND THAT WAS GIVEN BIRTH TO MUST BE LARGER THAN THE WOUND THAT GAVE BIRTH (on Blast First, I think). If you want to see more of his range of moods, check out I SAID, THIS IS THE SON OF NIHILISM on Table of the Elements, my current favorite. It's one song, about 1 hour long and displays many shifts of emotion and intensity. I got the opportunity to see him live at the Table of the Elements festival in Chicago last November with Fushitsusha and was blown away. Probably the most intense live show I've seen, definitely the loudest, entertaining at the very least. I recommend checking out the web page sometime. I thought my collection was doing quite well until I did. -f fripp@ibm.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Russell Subject: Re: Keiji Haino Date: 31 Jan 1997 15:18:39 +0800 Jason Caulfield Bivins wrote: > > Okay, I may be opening up a big can of worms here but here goes: can > someone give me the scoop on Keiji Haino?? Since he's got a release on > both Avant and Tzadik, I figure this is a legit question. Let me say that > all I've heard are the Tzadik release (I was disappointed) and a PSF disc > with Barre Phillips and some percussionist (which I found mediocre). The > reason I'm so curious is that the press I've encountered tends to > describe him as an all-out skronker, a sonic terrorist, etc. Any hints, > suggestions, descriptions? Jason, you are correct about the Haino Avant album. It is untypical of his output and yes,he is a first rate skronker! He has been around for over 20 years apparently, recording with a variety of bands and solo. I havent heard a great deal of his work but he does play truely terrifying, cataclysmic free-rock guitar improvisations. If you can imagine a heavy rock Derek Bailey then you are just about in the same galaxy as Haino. He is prone to 45 minute improvisations involving massive feedback and metallic noise, also shrieking and shouting when he gets really emotional. His band Fushitsusha have released a variety of albums but I can heartily reccomend The Caution Appears. This has a selection of 'approachable' shortish tracks which are heavy on the devastating, white noise rock-out! There are a few Haino/Fushitsusha web pages about, you can find them through Lycos and The Wire magazine has been covering this kind of mayhem for the last 18 months in a fair amount of detail. If you find Haino's sound is to your liking you should also check out a band called Ascension. They are a UK Free-rock duo (guitar and drums) and specialise in pulverising, distortion workouts. Their guitarist Stefan Jaworzyn also runs a mail order list and an improv label featuring many other acts of disgusting sonic violence. Scott Russell. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: masada 4 Date: 31 Jan 1997 08:38:33 -0800 On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:55:33 GMT0BST DR S WILKIE wrote: > > well, it looks like masada 4 is avaialable in feb. harmonia mundi's > ad in 'the wire'mention masada 1-7(they are the uk dist.) [ don't know ^^^^^ If it is really written "1-7", my guess is that this should be interpreted as: 1-3,5-7. > about the US arrangements...] -now you can all rush out and pay full > price for three tracks;( does this mean altering the FAQ?!) > harmonia mundi (uk) are at info.uk@harmoniamundi.com Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy) Subject: Requia (?) & Torture Garden on CD Date: 31 Jan 1997 09:09:22 -0800 Uh, I'm pretty sure that Zorn's piece for piano & orchestra, premiered by the American Composers Orchestra is called "Aporias" rather than "Requia". I don't know whether Black Box is one or two discs (though the works previously released would all fit on a single disc), but all of Torture Garden, as released by Shimmy Disc on 12", is NOT on Grand Guignol. GG only includes those tracks not already released on Naked City. There were at least a few other pieces in the Torture Garden series that weren't on the Shimmy Disc release, though. I'd be surprise if there were enough to make this release two CDs, though. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Requia (?) & Torture Garden on CD Date: 31 Jan 1997 13:32:41 -0800 On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:09:22 -0800 Herb Levy wrote: > > Uh, I'm pretty sure that Zorn's piece for piano & orchestra, premiered by > the American Composers Orchestra is called "Aporias" rather than "Requia". > > I don't know whether Black Box is one or two discs (though the works > previously released would all fit on a single disc), but all of Torture > Garden, as released by Shimmy Disc on 12", is NOT on Grand Guignol. GG > only includes those tracks not already released on Naked City. > > There were at least a few other pieces in the Torture Garden series that > weren't on the Shimmy Disc release, though. I'd be surprise if there were > enough to make this release two CDs, though. I agree with Herb. TORTURE GARDEN is barely 30mn and LENG TCH'E barely 25mn. Should fit perfectly on one CD. 094 - TORTURE GARDEN: Naked City 1/ Blood is Thin (Zorn) 1:00 2/ Demon Sanctuary (Zorn) 0:38 3/ Thrash Jazz Assassin (Zorn) 0:45 4/ Dead Spot (Zorn) 0:31 5/ Bonehead (Zorn) 0:51 6/ Speedball (Zorn) 0:37 7/ Blood Duster (Zorn) 0:13 8/ Pile Driver (Zorn) 0:33 9/ Shangkuan Ling-Feng (Zorn) 1:14 10/ Numbskull (Zorn) 0:29 11/ Perfume Of A Critic's Burning Flesh (Zorn) 0:24 12/ Jazz Snob Eat Shit (Zorn) 0:24 13/ The Prestidigitator (Zorn) 0:43 14/ No Reason To Believe (Zorn) 0:26 15/ Hellraiser (Zorn) 0:39 16/ Torture Garden (Zorn) 0:35 17/ Slan (Zorn) 0:23 18/ Hammerhead (Zorn) 0:08 19/ The Ways Of Pain (Zorn) 0:31 20/ The Noose (Zorn) 0:10 21/ Sack Of Shit (Zorn) 0:43 22/ Blunt Instrument (Zorn) 0:53 23/ Osaka Bondage (Zorn) 1:14 24/ Igneous Ejaculation (Zorn) 0:20 25/ Shallow Grave (Zorn) 0:40 26/ Ujaku (Zorn) 0:27 27/ Kaoru (Zorn) 0:50 28/ Dead Dread (Zorn) 0:45 29/ Billy Liar (Zorn) 0:10 30/ Victims Of Torture (Zorn) 0:22 31/ Speedfreaks (Zorn) 0:29 32/ New Jersey Scum Swamp (Zorn) 0:41 33/ S & M Sniper (Zorn) 0:14 34/ Pigfucker (Zorn) 0:23 35/ Cairo Chop Shop (Zorn) 0:22 36/ Fuck The Facts (Zorn) 0:11 37/ Obeah Man (Zorn) 0:17 38/ Facelifter (Zorn) 0:34 39/ N.Y. Flat Top Box (Zorn) 0:43 40/ Whiplash (Zorn) 0:19 41/ The Blade (Zorn) 0:36 42/ Gob Of Spit (Zorn) 0:18 Recorded in Brooklyn, New York City and Tokyo 1989-1990 John Zorn: alto, vocals; Bill Frisell: guitar; Wayne Horvitz: keyboards; Fred Frith: bass; Joey Baron: drums; Yamatsuka Eye: vocals. 1990 - Shimmy-Disc (USA), S-039-CS (CT) 1990 - Shimmy-Disc (USA), (45 RPM 12") 1990 - Earache (UK), Mosh 28 (LP) 1990 - Earache (UK), Mosh 28 CD (CD) 1990 - Earache (UK), Mosh 28 MC (CT) 1991 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88557 (CD) 1993 - Shimmy-Disc (USA), 039 (CD) 1996 - Tzadik (USA), TZ ???? (CD) Note: all the songs except (2,6,7,18,24,26,36,37,39) are also available on GRAND GUIGNOL (1992). Note: (2,6,7,18,24,26,36,37,39) were previously released on NAKED CITY (1990). Note: the Tzadik reissue is not released yet (planned for March 18, 1997). Note: the Tzadik reissue also includes LENG TCH'E (1992). BTW, does anybody own the Earache pressings? Patrice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: Zorn & Chadbourne (was FAQ 1.1) Date: 31 Jan 1997 22:20:27 -0500 (EST) > (FAQ candidate question) > >* I hear that Zorn and Eugene Chadbourne broke up because Zorn ripped off > Eugene, and now they hate each other. Is that true? > In a recent Wire, I saw an ad for a Chadbourne record on Leo, Boogie with the Hook, that features Zorn as a sideman. Is this a recent recording? (Is it any good?) If it's recent, is the above FAQ candidate question still valid? On now: Hal Russell (another candidate for cool sax players), Hal's Bells. -- Caleb T. Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com ;; For every complex question there is a simple answer. ;; And it is wrong. (H. L. Mencken) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gsg@juno.com Subject: sorry for the plug..... Date: 12 Jan 1997 13:56:27 PST Straylight - when ambient and world music collide........ at the Knitting Factory in the Alterknit Theatre 11pm $7.00