From: "Felix" Subject: Filmworks Date: 01 Aug 1998 22:35:54 +0200 I just got my first Filmwork, the very first tome and I love it! It's really good to hear a fresh zorn again, after spending so much time with his more experimental/improv/ambient stuff. Does the quality increase cronologically or is it random? Which would be the best one to buy next? Thanks Felix jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Recent Goodies Date: 01 Aug 1998 19:52:55 -0400 Some items, new and old, that have made their way into my house this past week: John French O Solo Drumbo Avant Strange record; probably the first solo drum record I can remember that comes so much from a rockish perspective. Some of the pieces sound like simply the drum tracks to CB songs (which apparently they are), others are elaborated on a bit, often very imaginatively, but we're in a different musical universe from Milford Graves or Jerome Cooper. French still has a low, thick tone (sounds like he's playing with legs of lamb), but sometimes seems to start off on a nice riff only to lose track halfway through the piece. Still, not bad. Strange liners, where French alternates between self-deprecation and childishness. Hasidic New Wave Jews and the Abstract Truth KFW More rousing wedding music, etc from Frank London and crew. Nothing groundbreaking, but no complaints either--good stuff in the same vein as "The Schvitz". AMM The Inexhaustible Document Matchless Continuing on in my belated appreciation of this group. Great music, different from anyone else's, but I imagine most z-listers with interest in AMM have had this for some time. I've got this and 'Newfoundland'; any recs on which one to pick up next? Liu Sola Haunts Also Pretty nice album from this Chinese vocalist/pianist (w/ Fernando Saunders, Amina Claudine Myers, Pheroan Ak Laff and Chieli Minucci). Stylistically about halfway between her 'Blues from the East' and her duo with Wu Man on Avant, this contains some very enjoyable, hypnotic pieces and restrained, sensitive vocal work. BTW, list price is apparently $10 for some reason. La Banda La Banda Enja Hmmm...I was _really_ looking forward to this 2CD set, and now I'm not so sure. La Banda is a version of a type of village wind ensemble popular (for about 200 years) in much of Italy. This group is 36 pieces (33 winds--including about a dozen clarinets!--) and 3 percussion, joined, for the second disc, by Willem Breuker, Pino Minafra, Gianluigi Trovesi and several others. The first disc consists of standard banda repertoire, which is to say instrumental versions of opera warhorses with fluegelhorns taking the vocal parts. If you listen to this one way, you have simply an equivalent to your generic Pops concert. I find it more profitable to think of it as some field recording done in a remote Italian village, with the local band playing "exotic" ethnic standards, but, admittedly, that's kinda hard. The second disc has new pieces by Breuker, tubaist Michel Godard and, the highlight, Bruno Tommaso's neat arrangement of a bunch of Nino Rota tunes. Both Godard's and Breuker's works struck me as so-so; some nice moments breaking up some ponderous ones. Good idea, one that I'd like to see developed, but this first venture is only partially successful. Items I saw but didn't pick up: Cecil Taylor The Tree of Life (?) FMP " " (cd release of the Nuits de la Fondation Maeght) Eberhard Blum Japanese Flute Music Hat [now] Anyone? Also, caught Joey Baron (w/ Eskelin and Roseman) at Tonic. Wonderful set! Baron amazes me more and more each time I hear him. I'm beginning to (cautiously!) place him in the line from Roach to Blackwell to McCall as far as pure musicality and inventivenes goes (not to mention percussive excitement and joy). Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: AMM (was: Recent Goodies) Date: 01 Aug 1998 21:19:10 EDT In a message dated 8/1/98 7:57:12 PM, olewnik@IDT.NET wrote: <> I'd say The Nameless Uncarved Block or LIve In Allentown, both of which are also later recordings, in their somewhat more mellow mode. AMMusic 1966 and The Crypt, along with the first disc of Laminal, are their only recordings thus far released from the sixties and tend more toward a louder, sometimes noise-based, "rock" mode. Combine and Laminates and Generative Themes are also superb. All that being said, you really can't go too wrong with any of those seven I just mentioned (or the two Brian already has). The only ones I don't think are essential are the recent one on PSF, the ECM one (just Rowe and Prevost; nice record, but not really an AMM record), To Hear And Back Again (which is just Lou Gare and Prevost and is the most jazz-influenced of their records), and the last disc of Laminal (a 1994 concert from Context, the only time (!) they've played New York to date. I was at this show and wasn't that impressed then either.) The first two discs of Laminal are eye-opening, though, and it's a good way to see how they've involved. I haven't heard the most recent one, Before Driving To The Chapel..., quite enough to know where it fits in. Every record you hear of AMM helps you to understand the ones you've heard before. I think of it as one long thirty year improvisation that we are afforded occasional glimpses into through records. If I was pressed to name my favorite band in the world now, I think it would be AMM. Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Carpenter's Dark Star Date: 02 Aug 1998 03:21:41 +0200 Hi all, here's one for you experts: In John Carpenter's "Dark Star", there's a track the astronauts are listening (well, sort of) to called "When Twilight Falls On NGC 891", by some Martin Segundo (?). While I think these names are wrong, the track (sounds somewhat jazzy) doesn't sound like it was made by Carpenter. Can anybody fill me in? Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Filmworks Date: 02 Aug 1998 03:33:15 -0400 At 10:35 PM 8/1/98 +0200, Felix wrote: >I just got my first Filmwork, the very first tome and I love it! It's really >good to hear a fresh zorn again, after spending so much time with his more >experimental/improv/ambient stuff. Does the quality increase cronologically >or is it random? Which would be the best one to buy next? I've got one, two, four and seven. Two is all for one film, so it has a consistency that the others don't, all small combo stuff like much of one. Seven is the classic Cynical Hysterie Hour, music for Japanese cartoons. Excellent, but very short. Four contains five very different pieces of music from five different films, and includes a great ambient blues piece and a wild sampler piece, among others. I like them all, and based on these four find the filmworks series one of JZ's most consistently imaginative collections. Eight, the newest, is another of the Masada variations, and is reputed to be excellent as well. The Tzadik web site contains personnel and more detailed track information for all of the above. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Desert In Hand by Shakushain Date: 02 Aug 1998 13:56:59 +0400 Hello Zorn-list, I found "Desert In Hand" by Shakushain on Music Boulevard web-site. They said that it is Knitting Factory CD. But there is no any information on KFW site. Does anybody knows anything about this CD? Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@jazz.ru URL: http://www.jazz.ru/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: AMM (was: Recent Goodies) Date: 02 Aug 1998 09:03:18 -0400 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > Every record you hear of AMM helps you to understand the ones you've heard > before. I think of it as one long thirty year improvisation that we are > afforded occasional glimpses into through records. > > If I was pressed to name my favorite band in the world now, I think it would > be AMM. Thanks for the recommendations and insight, Jon. Perhaps you or someone else could shed some light on something I've been wondering about re: AMM. One of my first impressions was the "landscape" quality of their sound, unique in that they seem to have actualized what many just talk about: paying equal (and extreme) attention to each sound and giving each sound equal (and extreme!) importance. I visualize ultra-high resolution photographs of scenes without obvious central focus (I hesitantly proffer Ansel Adams, without the picturesqueness). This is a similar sense I've gotten over the years from Morton Feldman, though MF's sound is certainly more ethereal and AMM's grainier, for me, they inhabit a related sound-space. So my question: I know Tilbury is a big proponent of Feldman, having written on him and recorded his work. Was AMM's work changed significantly, possibly towards a "smoother" (relative term, here), more tonal (in a Feldmanesque manner) aspect when Tilbury joined the group? Have the original members acknowledged indebtedness to MF and the NY School? I could be totally off base, but AMM (in my limited exposure) seems a direct descendant of this approach, though obviously on an improvisatory tack. I could, of course, simply go out and buy the discs and hear for myself, but I have to give the old wallet a breather once in a while. Thanks, Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: AMM (was: Recent Goodies) Date: 02 Aug 1998 10:17:12 EDT In a message dated 8/2/98 9:06:15 AM, olewnik@idt.net wrote: <> Good question. I know that Christian Wolff was a member of AMM in 1968, although his presence was not captured on record. Prevost says in his book No Sound Is Innocent, "Evan Parker and Christian Wolff are the two musicians outside of the immediate circle of AMM with whom an indefinable rapport is felt-and a confidence that the AMM aesthetic would be pursued and respected." That aside, I would say that the answer to your question is that Tilbury is obviously quite influenced by MF and the NY School, and thus, any AMM records that he's on tend to move more in that direction, including the two that you have. Keith Rowe and Eddie Prevost are the heart of the band, however, and I'd say pinning down their influences is a lot tougher. Rowe was a member of Mike Westbrook's band in the mid-sixties and Prevost played in a hard-bop quintet, but it seems to me like there are very few remnants of these formative influences evident on record. If you check out The Crypt, you won't hear much Feldman there, closer to a proto-Sonic Youth or Merzbow at times. Hope that helps, Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: More AMM Date: 02 Aug 1998 10:34:48 EDT poking around a little more in Prevost's book, I find: "In 1965 not only were Cage's ideas unknown to AMM, but most of the musicians had only the vaguest idea who he was! In an interview I was asked about Cage's influence, and simply assumed he was a drummer I hadn't heard of. Awareness arrived with Cardew." (Cornelius Cardew was a member of AMM for a while early on also.) also, something I found enlightening. "AMM, especially in Rowe's contribution, is indebted to Jackson Pollock. Even the scene of execution is similar, with Rowe adjusting the basic canvas (in his case laying the guitar flat on its back) to enable certain 'actions' to be carried out, to let dribbles of sound meander, collect in drowning pools of volume or run off the edges into congealed silences. This manner of working- seen/heard in Tilbury's exploitation of the piano stool or in letting bottles slowly oscillate, vibrated by, and in turn vibrating, the piano strings; or in Lawrence Sheaff's use of toys and humming tops; or in my own 'dish gong' and cymbal quasi-Doppler effects, the scratching, scraping and bowings and the over-spped drumming, designed to fall, through an impossible momentum, into chaotic unknowable sequences.-became common practice applied by all AMMmusicians individually." anyway, there's more in the book about their influences, including Taoism, but if you're that interested, you should probably pick up a copy. Other Music probably still stocks it. it's hard going, but very worthwhile. Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Seth Gordon Subject: Re: Dark Star Date: 02 Aug 1998 11:22:59 PDT Sorry, can't remember which list it was on where someone asked about this... so forgive the intrusion if it wasn't here, but: Martin Segundo was a psuedonym for John Carpenter. It's a reference to something, but I can't remember what. It means something along the lines of "Martin 2" (it's literal translation, I think)- but what "Martin 1" was I can't for the life of me think of just now... - Seth - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: More AMM Date: 02 Aug 1998 19:46:49 -0400 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > Awareness arrived with Cardew." (Cornelius Cardew was a member of AMM for > a while early on also.) Actually, something else I saw at Other Music on vinyl that I almost picked up, was Cardew's record on Matchless called something approximating "For Trautmann" (I know that's not it, but it's not ridiculously off!). Apparently music at least somewhat based on themes from Irish worker's songs? Know of it? > "AMM, especially in Rowe's contribution, is indebted to Jackson Pollock. Even > the scene of execution is similar, with Rowe adjusting the basic canvas (in > his case laying the guitar flat on its back) to enable certain 'actions' to be > carried out, to let dribbles of sound meander, collect in drowning pools of > volume or run off the edges into congealed silences. Grrrr...A longstanding pet peeve of mine is the comparison of this or that new music to Pollack specifically or, often, Abstract Expressionism generally. I know it's tough to gainsay Prevost here, or Feldman vis a vis Philip Guston, but I can't help but think that these connections are often leaped at by musicians who feel a need to equate their "new" form to whatever happens to be "new" in an adjacent field, no matter how, IMHO, misaligned they are. Now I happen to hold the (probable minority) opinion that Pollack was a piss-poor painter (ahhh, let's say Borah Bergman to de Kooning's Cecil Taylor), and I think Prevost's comparison above (flat canvas to flat guitar) is trivial but, in any case, there are plenty of other recent painters whose work, again IMHO, resonates far more sympathetically with AMM's creations than Pollack's (the sand paintings of Antonio Tapies spring instantly to mind; Klein, Reinhart and Stella also seem more to the point; don't even get me started on someone like Vermeer! As to Feldman, Agnes Martin seems far more in sync with him than Guston, but maybe that's just me). I think Pollack's name often serves as a catch-all for people to cite when they don't really know the field; this makes for facile comparisons that do neither art-form justice. Forgive the rant; it's just not too often I get to spout off about painting on this list....gotta take advantage of those rare opportunities! Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: Re: More AMM Date: 02 Aug 1998 22:45:48 -0400 (EDT) ), and I think Prevost's comparison >above (flat canvas to flat guitar) is trivial but, in any case, there >are plenty of other recent painters whose work, again IMHO, resonates >far more sympathetically with AMM's creations than Pollack's (the sand >paintings of Antonio Tapies spring instantly to mind; Klein, Reinhart >and Stella also seem more to the point You definately hear something different in AMM or see something different in Reinhart or Stella (I know little of the others) than me. Pollack seems an appropriate, if obvious and not optimal, choice to compare the more "slash and burn" aestetics of early AMM with. DeKooning's maintenance of images doesn't fit AMM's absolute lack of melody/harmony; perhaps Ayler=DeKooning, AMM=Pollack. Although his later, more abstract work could be compared to 80s/90s AMM. As for Reinhart, I would really hate to believe that AMM are playing for the same reason he painted: to create art objects with no purpose other than pure art objects (at least that's my understanding of his philosospy). The simple reliance on imporvisation invalidates this connection, and allies them with more "gestural" schools of thought. Also I hear an attempt at communication and expression in AMM: an invitation despite obvious initial alien nature of the sound. I get no feeling like that from Stella or Reinhart, and from Reinhart writing, at least, I don't get the impression I'm missing anything. Having said all that, though, if you have just heard the 90s material I can see where a minimalist (art not music) connection might come from. In any case, wouldn't the incorporation of the transistor radios link AMM to Jasper Johns or Robert Rauchenburg? These are the two I've certainly associated them with, esspessially because of the Cage connection with Rauchenburg Sorry if my ad hoc art history knowledge is entirely specious, as well as for the certain misspellings of the names matt ; don't even get me started on >someone like Vermeer! As to Feldman, Agnes Martin seems far more in sync >with him than Guston, but maybe that's just me). I think Pollack's name >often serves as a catch-all for people to cite when they don't really >know the field; this makes for facile comparisons that do neither >art-form justice. > >Forgive the rant; it's just not too often I get to spout off about >painting on this list....gotta take advantage of those rare >opportunities! > >Brian Olewnick > >- ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: More AMM Date: 02 Aug 1998 22:58:32 EDT In a message dated 8/2/98 7:49:43 PM, you wrote: <> Brian, I certainly don't know as much about painters as you, and it seems like neither does Prevost. But your question was what influenced him (and AMM), and he says Pollock, among other people. Understand that Prevost is referring to initial influences here; I think that AMM has tried to consciously steer clear of outside influences as much as possible since their inception. I understand that you're venting a bit here, but it seems somewhat misplaced. Now if it was a critic comparing AMM to Pollock, that's entirely different. I'm psyched to go check out some de Kooning, though. Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William York Subject: more AMM and other recent stuff Date: 02 Aug 1998 23:44:37 -0400 (EDT) On the topic of AMM, I just got _Live in Allentown_, my first, and was actually playing it on the air at the radio station when I checked my messages and saw all of the discuusion, strange coincidence. Anyway this CD has lots of quiet spots and the wide dynamic range (and length) make it hard to listen to, really a headphones CD, but it lives up to all the praise I had heard. I was surprised to hear the tonal and almost pretty piano parts. Does anyone know if they start completely from a blank page when playing, because the intro avoids the usual quiet pecking and testing out I find annoying in so many improv performances. Also, I finally got around to getting Hans Reichel _Death of the Rare Bird Ymir_ which is also very interesting, like alien folk guitar. More stuff: Tim Berne + Michael Formanek _Ornery People_ This doesn't have the energy of the Bloodcount CDs but after getting used to that I liked it a lot. Their approach to melody/harmony is unique, it amazes me how they can play such complex stuff and have it come across on such a direct level. Microscopic Septet -Offbeat Glory_ and Philip Johnston _Normalology_ I don't usually like stuff this happy but they write some great tunes and its really fun to listen to (Zorn played in the Micros in 1983 but didn't record with them) Enough for now I guess, William York - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: E#, S. Cain, P. Jones gig Date: 03 Aug 1998 00:53:47 EDT Hello, Did anyone catch the recent gig at Irving Plaza with Elliott Sharp, Sim Cain and Percy Jones?? If so, please tell me about it. And I know its a long shot, but if anyone has, or can get a recording of that gig, please email me!! I'm sure I have something to offer in trade. Thanks/ Jody McAllister - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marcin.Witkowski@wor.tvp.com.pl Subject: Tipographica question Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:27:20 +0200 Hello, I've heard somewhere about CD: Tipographica+friends: "Jazz - Bacharach" Does it really exist? Does anybody own any of that? There is nothing about it on Tipographica web site. http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html Thanks for any info. Marcin - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Kowalski Subject: motian plays weil... Date: 03 Aug 1998 10:35:41 -0400 For the patient zornster looking for info on Motian's take on Weil, a belated reply : Tethered Moon (Verve jMT, 697 124 059-2, 1994) Paul Motian, Masabum Kikuchi and Gary Peacock play Kut Weil. Its worth seeking out...enjoy. happy listening Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: e# and uitti Date: 03 Aug 1998 10:44:20 -0400 The latest Anomalous Records update contains a free improv between Elliot Sharp and Frances-Marie Uitti (the cellist who uses two bows -- she has a fabulous and eerie album on BVHaast). Has anyone either heard this, or heard these two live? I'm sort of interested, but am having a hard time picturing what this would sound like. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jan-Wen Lu Subject: Re: Tipographica question Date: 03 Aug 1998 23:19:25 +0800 --------------A1F83ACEF2F33C1936BE4B49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello, > I've heard somewhere about CD: > Tipographica+friends: "Jazz - Bacharach" > > Does it really exist? Does anybody own any of that? > There is nothing about it on Tipographica web site. > > http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html > > Thanks for any info. > Marcin > Yes, I have one copy of this CD. In fact, it's titled Alfie-Jazz Bacharach. Not a Tipographica album. The music is played by a quartet with three members of Tipographica(Tsuneo Imahori,Hiroaki Mizutani and Akira Sotoyama) and a piano player(Satoru Shionoya). They play famous Bacharach tunes. Released in late '96 by Pony Canyon Records. Item no. PCCR-00250. Jan-Wen Lu P.S. Does any have the new CD of Hiroaki Mizutani's new project "LowBlow"? Any commendation on it? --------------A1F83ACEF2F33C1936BE4B49 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Hello,
I've heard somewhere about CD:
Tipographica+friends: "Jazz - Bacharach"

Does it really exist? Does anybody own any of that?
There is nothing about it on Tipographica web site.

http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html

Thanks for any info.
Marcin
 

Yes, I have one copy of this CD. In fact, it's titled Alfie-Jazz Bacharach. Not a Tipographica album. The music is played by a quartet with three members of Tipographica(Tsuneo Imahori,Hiroaki Mizutani and Akira Sotoyama) and a piano player(Satoru Shionoya). They play famous Bacharach tunes.

Released in late '96 by Pony Canyon Records. Item no. PCCR-00250.
 
 

Jan-Wen Lu

P.S. Does any have the new CD of Hiroaki Mizutani's new project "LowBlow"? Any
       commendation on it?
   --------------A1F83ACEF2F33C1936BE4B49-- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Burton Subject: Re: Mori/Ribot/Coleman/Lindsay/Kang + Oval Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:47:15 -0400 (EDT) On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Felix wrote: > One question though: I have the opportunity to see Ikue Mori, Marc Ribot, > Anthony Coleman, Arto Lindsay, some person named Kang and something named > Oval all together. Questions: Who is Kang and Oval? Has anyone ever heard > this set? If so, how good is it? oval is a german guy named markus popp. oval creates music by painting on/damaging cds, then sampling the resulting clicks and skips. popp then arranges the sampled sounds into song structures. very mesmerizing if you're acclimated to sparse, damaged electronic sounds. b - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yves Dewulf Subject: Re: Mori/Ribot/Coleman/Lindsay/Kang + Oval Date: 03 Aug 1998 18:11:12 +0200 >oval is a german guy named markus popp. oval creates music by painting >on/damaging cds, then sampling the resulting clicks and skips. popp then >arranges the sampled sounds into song structures. very mesmerizing if >you're acclimated to sparse, damaged electronic sounds. I believe Oval used to be a duo, but now only Popp remains. He also designed some interactive software to compose with/modify these samples in real-time. I saw concert by Oval about half a year ago and the performance consisted of Popp sitting behind his laptop, quietly moving his mouse to adjust some parameters (for over an hour). The music was very ambient (not especially dark or extreme experimental), not unlike some Eno-stuff (who's also dealing with music generating software nowadays.) YVes - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: e# and uitti Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:54:47 -0400 (EDT) The new (August) The Wire gives the disk a bad review. Take that for what you wish. And/or check it out to see what the reviewer says. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote: > The latest Anomalous Records update contains a free improv between > Elliot Sharp and Frances-Marie Uitti (the cellist who uses two bows -- > she has a fabulous and eerie album on BVHaast). Has anyone either > heard this, or heard these two live? I'm sort of interested, but am > having a hard time picturing what this would sound like. > > --- > Caleb T. Deupree > ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. > > Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. > (Pablo Picasso) > > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Germuska Subject: Re: Seattle based people - HELP others delete this message Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:02:07 -0500 Everyone interested in the Pacific Northwest improv scene should check out the hard-working suckers at the tentacle: >Visit the Tentacle Web site at http://www.tentacle.org for up-to-the-minute >news and concert listings and comprehensive directories of Northwest labels, >music sources, radio programs, and links to Northwest creative musicians' >home pages. And if you want a more interactive forum, check out the pnw-improv list Joe -- * Joe Germuska {j-germuska@nwu.edu} | Learning Technologies Group | Northwestern University "It would be equally incorrect to assume that 'magic', however defined, is not a kind of technology." - George Lewis (composer/trombonist) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Archery 2XLP for sale Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:35:46 EDT Hello, I hope no one minds that I am posting this here... I want to sell my copy of the Archery 2XLP set. If you are seriously intersted, please e-mail me privately. Anyone reading this knows that this is a rare piece so please send serious offers only. Thanks much. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lang Thompson Subject: Option Magazine Date: 03 Aug 1998 19:19:58 -0400 Since this ties into an earlier thread: I've just received word that Option Magazine is temporarily suspending publication. The issue that's been on stands for a month is the last one; the Sept issue was cancelled. According to the notification, the main reason for the suspension is to figure out where Option should be going, how much should be print or online, how the spinoff magazines should work, etc. The publisher seemed quite confident that it would start up later but you never know with these things. Still, if you ever felt like suggesting things that need to be covered or done differently, now would be the best time. LT Lang Thompson http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4 New at the Funhouse website: Alternate 100 American Films, Anthology of American Folk Music, Godzilla Bites! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Option Magazine Date: 03 Aug 1998 16:23:32 -0700 On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:19:58 -0400 Lang Thompson wrote: > > Since this ties into an earlier thread: I've just received word that > Option Magazine is temporarily suspending publication. The issue that's > been on stands for a month is the last one; the Sept issue was cancelled. > According to the notification, the main reason for the suspension is to > figure out where Option should be going, how much should be print or > online, how the spinoff magazines should work, etc. The publisher seemed > quite confident that it would start up later but you never know with these ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I got the impression that he was saying that just to be sure that the creditors would not feel liberated from their obligation of paying their bills :-). If you take this into account, I think the magazine of over... > things. Still, if you ever felt like suggesting things that need to be > covered or done differently, now would be the best time. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: suebob@mindspring.com (bob burnett) Subject: AMM Date: 03 Aug 1998 22:28:18 -0400 I've been following the discussion about AMM and am interested in finding out about the group. Somehow my net has completely missed them. Any background or cd suggestions appreciated. Thanks Bob suebob@mindspring.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: More AMM Date: 03 Aug 1998 21:41:32 -0800 As usual, probably late 'cause I'm on digest, but Brian Olewnick wrote: >Grrrr...A longstanding pet peeve of mine is the comparison of this or >that new music to Pollack specifically or, often, Abstract Expressionism >generally. I know it's tough to gainsay Prevost here, or Feldman vis a >vis Philip Guston, but I can't help but think that these connections are >often leaped at by musicians who feel a need to equate their "new" form >to whatever happens to be "new" in an adjacent field, no matter how, >IMHO, misaligned they are. Now I happen to hold the (probable minority) >opinion that Pollack was a piss-poor painter (ahhh, let's say Borah >Bergman to de Kooning's Cecil Taylor), and I think Prevost's comparison >above (flat canvas to flat guitar) is trivial but, in any case, there >are plenty of other recent painters whose work, again IMHO, resonates >far more sympathetically with AMM's creations than Pollack's (the sand >paintings of Antonio Tapies spring instantly to mind; Klein, Reinhart >and Stella also seem more to the point; don't even get me started on >someone like Vermeer! As to Feldman, Agnes Martin seems far more in sync >with him than Guston, but maybe that's just me). I think Pollack's name >often serves as a catch-all for people to cite when they don't really >know the field; this makes for facile comparisons that do neither >art-form justice. Yeah, it's common for analogies between artistic media to be somewhat over the top and/or wrong-headed & yeah, Pollack serves more often as poster boy for AbExp than he might should ought to. I think though, from reading Feldman's various collected writings that he was more generally interested in his work's similarities to visual art in general, that the enlarged time frame he used was to be analogous to how one experiences a work of visual art when viewing it over time. The dedication to Guston, was more due to the friendship between the two men than any specific parallels between the works as such. Getting back to the ostensible subject line of the thread, in addition to the forementioned Christian Wolff connection to AMM, Cornelius Cardew had lots of experience working & performing with several folks from the "NY School" (Cage, Tudor, etc), in his pre-Maoist phase. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yves Dewulf Subject: Marclay Date: 04 Aug 1998 12:00:25 +0200 I was recently in the museum of fine arts of Geneva and was amazed to find an installation by Christian Marclay between mummies en remnants of medieval castles. The installation consisted of a grand piano with some mirrors inside and won an important price for contemporary art in Switzerland. (the title was something like "Piano 1994"). My Question: Is this the same Marclay we all know ? YVes - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Staley, Hirsch, Raydeeoh Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Some of you might be familiar with the Jim Staley albums on which Zorn and friends play. I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Shelley Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her other projects are? On another note, I should mention that I have a new show over at WMUC Radio in College Park, MD. I do all new/experimental/avant-garde music, and this summer (and hopefully this fall) the time is on Mondays from noon to 3pm. The reason I can announce this on a mailing list (of all things) is that we have a RealAudio feed from the station, so you can listen to my show from anywhere in the world! When the time is right (mondays, 12-3), go to http://www.wmuc.umd.edu and follow the links to the RealAudio feed. If you're interested in sending me any recordings or getting our radio station on your mailing list for new promos, please email me privately and I'll give you our address. m | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | | | | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | | | | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: E#, S. Cain, P. Jones gig Date: 04 Aug 1998 09:10:18 -0400 > On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:53:47 EDT, IOUaLive1@aol.com sed > > Did anyone catch the recent gig at Irving Plaza with Elliott Sharp, Sim Cain > and Percy Jones?? If so, please tell me about it. And I know its a long > shot, but if anyone has, or can get a recording of that gig, please email me!! > I'm sure I have something to offer in trade. Thanks > Not too far fetched. There was at least one crew that night filming the Plastic People. It looked like the cameras were set up and maybe on when Elliott did his set (which was excellent, by the way). So... who knows, maybe we'll see a video of this! Jason -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Marclay Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:01:52 -0700 On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:00:25 +0200 Yves Dewulf wrote: > > > I was recently in the museum of fine arts of Geneva and was > amazed to find an installation by Christian Marclay between > mummies en remnants of medieval castles. > The installation consisted of a grand piano with some mirrors > inside and won an important price for contemporary art in > Switzerland. (the title was something like "Piano 1994"). > My Question: Is this the same Marclay we all know ? Sure. Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these past years. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Corey Marc Fogel Subject: Re: Marclay Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:19:18 -0700 (MST) On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:00:25 +0200 Yves Dewulf wrote: > > The installation consisted of a grand piano with some mirrors > > inside and won an important price for contemporary art in > > Switzerland. (the title was something like "Piano 1994"). > > My Question: Is this the same Marclay we all know ? > > Sure. Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these > past years. no, I don't understand. please explain. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Marclay Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:35:36 -0700 On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:19:18 -0700 (MST) Corey Marc Fogel wrote: > > > > On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > Sure. Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these > > past years. > > no, I don't understand. please explain. I meant that Marclay got more interested by visual art/installations in the late '80s, to the point that he almost stopped recording. There is a long hole in his discography, testifying of his other interests. If you do some search on the web, you will find that he has been quite active in the art field. The good thing (for us interested by his music) is that there are signs (altough tenuous ones...) that he might spend more time with music performance. I am still curious to know what Asphodel will put out (as you have noticed, all his "recent" recordings are quite old). Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Burton Subject: Re: AMM (was: Recent Goodies) Date: 04 Aug 1998 11:46:35 -0400 (EDT) On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > All that being said, you really can't go too wrong with any of those seven I > just mentioned (or the two Brian already has). The only ones I don't think are > essential are the recent one on PSF, the ECM one (just Rowe and Prevost; nice > record, but not really an AMM record) let me add a voice of dissent here. i'm crazy about "...pueblo colorado," the record that rowe and prevost recorded for ecm as amm III. of course, i'm listening to it in the context of the late '70s and how prescient this configuration was in terms of subsequent efforts by sonic youth, storm & stress, william hooker, gastr del sol, crom-tech, etc. while certainly nowhere near the density of of the original incarnation of amm, the ecm record sort of peels back the curtain on the amm mystique, unveiling a pronounced jazz debt and a future influence on punk. just guitar and drums. b - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Handley" Subject: Re: Marclay Date: 04 Aug 1998 09:34:41 PDT Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these >past years. > > Patrice. > Bruce Gallanter told me, maybe two or three years ago, that Marclay was having hearing problems...or was this David Shea? One of the two. I don't suppose it matters, but does anyone know about this? --scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Staley, Hirsch, Raydeeoh Date: 04 Aug 1998 11:54:40 -0500 (CDT) On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > Some of you might be familiar with the Jim Staley albums on which Zorn and > friends play. I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Shelley > Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her other projects are? I have several Shelley Hirsch recordings. I'll try to remember to bring them for you when next we get together. Among them is perhaps her best known, "O Little Town of East New York" on Tzadik, some collaborations with David Weinstein, and a quartet gig with David Moss, Anna Homler, and... uh... someone else. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Recent goodies: Haino/Hayward/Min Date: 04 Aug 1998 13:03:04 -0400 Hello Folks on the Zorn-list: After the Haino/Musica Transonic collaboration came out in June, there was some discussion about that not being an essential Haino recording... Well, the 4 new Haino cds on Tokuma have reached the U.S. (via Forced Exposure and others). The real excitement in this set is Haino's new band "Aihiyo". This disc features a voice-guitar/bass/drums trio covering Japanese folks songs (supposedly). Anyway, the disc is definitely a new direction for Haino so fans should be excited by that. Moreover, the songs are great and Haino is in peak form. If you are thinking about sampling one of the four cds, the Aihiyo disc is the one to check out first. Also, there are 2 Fushitsusha discs (I have only listened to the first so far and it is more in the mellow Fushitsusha vein, which is cool with me, although I know some folks are fans of the Fushitsusha density and power.) One of the 4 new Tokuma cds is Haino solo on voice and Hurdy Gurdy. (I have no idea why Haino is enamored with calling the instrument the "Hard-y Guide-y".) but it is one 72 minute monster drone track, more like the 17 minute hurdy gurdy track on the cd included with Halana! issue 2. It seems to my ear to be less abrasive than the first Haino hurdy gurdy album on PSF "The 21st Century Hard-y Guide-y Man". BTW, a ways back, I raised a question about the availability in the US of the Charles Hayward/Keiji Haino/Otomo Yoshihide/Tatsuya Yoshida/Peter Brotzmann release "Double Agent(s) Live in Japan Volume 2" on Locus Solus. That disc is now out via Wayside, even though I haven't seen it listed in their on-line catalogs. One more thing: The new Min Xiao-Fen cd on AVANT is advertised as: "Min Xiao-Fen is one of the outstanding pipa virtuosos of our time... and has developed strong working relationships with composers as diverse as Chen Yi, Tan Dun, Wadada Leo Smith, Carl Stone, George Lewis and John Zorn. This CD features the fruit of these collaborative friendships in seven major new compositions..." This blurb is a little misleading since neither George Lewis nor John Zorn have composed any of the music on the cd. David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: benjamin elliot axelrad Subject: Re: Staley, Hirsch, Raydeeoh Date: 04 Aug 1998 12:30:31 -0500 (CDT) On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote: > On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > > > Some of you might be familiar with the Jim Staley albums on which Zorn and > > friends play. I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Shelley > > Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her other projects are? > > I have several Shelley Hirsch recordings. I'll try to remember to bring > them for you when next we get together. Among them is perhaps her best > known, "O Little Town of East New York" on Tzadik, some collaborations > with David Weinstein, and a quartet gig with David Moss, Anna Homler, > and... uh... someone else. Can anyone recommend The September Band's (Hirsch/Rudiger Carl/Hans Reichel/???) disc on FMP? Thanks, Ben - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dominique Leone" Subject: Tzadik site Date: 04 Aug 1998 10:53:04 PDT If you don't already know, the Tzadik no longer delivers CDs directly through its website. I got two CDs from Tzadik, shipped from Knitting Factory. Dominique ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bobonic@westol.com (Adam MacGregor) Subject: AMM vs. pollock influence... Date: 04 Aug 1998 15:34:13 -0400 Well, for what it's worth, I did discover in speaking with Keith Rowe (AMM guitarist) after a AMM gig in Pittsburgh in 1994 or 95 that he is a painter by trade and does derive much influence and/or inspiration from painters rather than other musicians that exploit the prepared instrument technique. I asked him if he had taken anything from Cage's prepared piano experiments and incorporated them in his style, and he told me that more or less his technique finds more of an origin in graphical arts, although i dunno if he meant abstract expressionism in particular, but he may just have mentioned Pollock.... He said he dug Shostakovich too... --adam - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard C Williams Subject: Re: looking for Kurt Weill material Date: 29 Jul 1998 17:15:33 -0500 Fritz Feger wrote: > Which recordings are particularly good, especially - but not restricted to > - with lyrics (i.e. with vocals)? I'm rather fond of "Supply and Demand" by Dagmar Krause on Hannibal, which is a pretty common cut-out bin item. All of the material is either Brecht/Weill or Brecht/Eisler, and Dagmar sounds much more in her element than on the Frith/Cutler cmpositions that she's mostly known for. Rich - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Mark yer calendars Date: 04 Aug 1998 16:39:31 -0500 10/17 at the Knitting Factory An improv evening with : Glenn Branca Rudolph Grey Z'ev Dust off those earplugs! Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coleman Greene Subject: Re: Tzadik Website Date: 05 Aug 1998 03:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Hm, I would present an educated guess, and say its due to Zorn stopping the realaudio broadcasts of him at the knit, forcing changes to be made, then moving to greener, if not air-conditioned, pastures. It is extremely likely that Zorn wants little or nothing to do w/so called 'knitmedia' anymore. I don't know how many of you witnessed the Masada show when he went nuts over them broadcasting to the tap bar, and over the internet, but he wasn't very pleased. And realistically, I dont think a great percentage of artists playing in the main space, had any idea they were being broadcast anywhere but to the tap bar. Expanding the knit is one thing, and the old office is a nice lil space, but I must say, I was quite turned off by being badgered constantly about my undying requirement to 'buy a drink ticket'. Turned out my drink cost a good 4 dollars more than my drink ticket.... Somehow i wasn't suprised Anyhow, Coleman On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:15:32 UT peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote: > > Anyone know what's up with the Tzadik site? It hasn't been updated since like, late May. > Are they going to keep up with that? > Does anyone know what's new out there from them? > What's coming? Looks like a typical KF behavior: on January 1st everybody decides to get t heir actstogether and stop messing around, then, after a few weeks/months, things are stopped without any notice or explanation. Is it that can't keep any solid staff, and rely too much on kids with short attention span (or kids than they quickly delude)? Michael Dorf should know by now that getting a larger space is one thing, but being able to build and keep a good staff is another. I am seriously wondering if he has the slightest managerial skill... Patrice (appaled by the "news" section on the KF web site). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: VINYL/CD Sale ... Date: 05 Aug 1998 09:58:28 -0400 Hi, I'm having a vinyl sale (a couple CDs too, for right now). About 30 items. Instead of cluttering the list with all the titles, I've placed them (and basic info) at the following website: http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list. Just let me know. The list includes, among other things ... _lots_ of Scorn (some rare), Quoit, Possible 12"s, Pan(a)sonic (limited), Godflesh, Porter Ricks, Microstoria, L@N, Borbetomagus, Hijokaidan, Solmania etc. Thanks for looking. -Patrick pm.carey@utoronto.ca - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris Hunter" Subject: CD Shops in Tokyo Date: 05 Aug 1998 21:56:43 +0800 I'm hoping to make it to Japan next month and while there hope to hear as much as possible of the free/jazz/improv music that you hear on the Tzadik and Avant labels etc. When I was last there (years ago) it seemed that while the major stores such as Tower Records had massive ranges of the categories they chose to cover (Rock, Jazz, J-pop, enka, classic etc) I don't recall seeing much marginal stuff. Can anyone recommend any venues or CD shops in Tokyo ( or Fukuoka ) with a more radical bent? -- Cheers, Chris huntch@vianet.net.au "The study of 'non-Euclidian' geometry brings nothing to students but fatigue, vanity, arrogance and imbecility. 'Non-Euclidian' space is the false invention of demons, who gladly furnish the dark understandings of the 'non-euclidians' with false knowledge. The non-Euclidians, like the ancient sophists, see unaware that their understandings have become obscured by the promptings of the evil spirits". Matthew Ryan - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: CD Shops in Tokyo Date: 05 Aug 1998 09:48:08 -0700 At 09:56 PM 8/5/98 +0800, Chris Hunter wrote: >I'm hoping to make it to Japan next month and while there hope to hear as >much as possible of the free/jazz/improv music that you hear on the Tzadik >and Avant labels etc. > Well it's been a few years since I have been there but Wave in Tokyo was the place. However, there were numerous stores in the Akihabara that had much broader selections than one would find in the US. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hugues Roulon" Subject: Re: Riessler Date: 05 Aug 1998 19:52:12 +0200 > >can someone recommend any Michael Riessler cds? if anyone has any of >his cds that they could tape for me , please let me know privately and >i can do something in exchange... Hywel Davies I bought, perhaps two years ago, a record named Palude with Michael Riessler on sax and calrinet, Valentin Clastrier on Hurdy-gurdy and Carlo Rizzo on tambourine. A good record trying to create a "new hing" by mixing the roots of european traditionnal music and modern composition and improvisation. I'm always amazed when I listen to the things Carlo Rizzo can play with a single tambourine! Hugues Roulon hroulon@club-internet.fr http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: shelley hirsch Date: 05 Aug 1998 16:04:59 -0400 Matthew Ross Davis: Matthew> I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Matthew> Shelley Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her Matthew> other projects are? Joseph Zitt mentioned her collaboration with David Weinstein, but today, as I'm blissfully ignoring my colleages, listening to the first Filmworks on headphones, and there's this lovely ethereal voice in the last set of pieces (She Must Be Seeing Things). I reach to the cover to see who it is, and lo and behold it's Shelley Hirsch. And that reminds me that she has a track on the Burt Bacharach tribute album as well. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: Marclay Date: 05 Aug 1998 17:08:28 -0400 I've seen at least one of his installations here in New York at the Whitney a few years ago. It was a tape spool unwinding onto floor into a big pile. As for future activities, here's an interview excerpt: Otomo Yoshihide is someone I'm working with right now on a collaboration for Asphodel. He's an interesting DJ and really knows how to improvise with the records. He has great energy. Then there is the New York illbient scene with DJs like Olive, The Audio Janitor, and Toshio Kajiwara. They're always telling me about other kids doing interesting things and I'm just discovering new things through them. I've collaborated with Toshio and Olive in group improvisations. The other project I'm releasing with Asphodel is a compilation of live recordings that I've done over the last year with some of these younger DJ's. These are live performances. It's not a solo project -- when you think DJs, you think of them as solo artists with big egos. But if the turntable is really an instrument then why not have a band and play the instrument in combination with others. To react to sounds that don't come out of your own records, that's the ultimate challenge for a DJ. I've been trying for many years now to push this notion of the DJ as a band member, and I have been interested in groups of DJ's improvising together like a jazz band. So this record will be really featuring the instrument as a collaborative tool. It's hard to tell who's doing what when you're listening to these recordings. There's certain stylistics particular to each DJ, but when you hear a skipping loop, you think 'who's doing it' but who cares really? The result is a real collaborative effort and you have to listen to all these sounds democratically. The whole thing's up at http://www.furious.com/perfect/christianmarclay.html Jason -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: about Norman Yamada's THE SAD SMILES OF THE YOUNG... Date: 05 Aug 1998 14:40:29 -0700 I found mention of the following record in the liner notes of Norman Yamada's last one (BEING AND TIME, on Tzadik): *** - THE SAD SMILES OF THE YOUNG NASHVILLIANS: Norman Yamada ???? - Kattywampus (???), ??? (??) Does anybody know about it? I would specially like to know: - when was it released? - what is the label (never heard of it)? - who is playing on the record? - catalog number? Thanks, Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dikeman" Subject: Thomas Chapin's Death Date: 05 Aug 1998 16:59:48 PDT Anybody know exactly how and when Thomas Chapin died? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Hale Subject: Re: Thomas Chapin's Death Date: 05 Aug 1998 22:00:00 -0500 John Dikeman wrote: > > Anybody know exactly how and when Thomas Chapin died? Leukemia, on Feb. 14. James Hale - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re:Shelley Hirsch Date: 06 Aug 1998 14:09:41 EDT I'm sure anybody has yet mentioned the Butch Morris record "Homeing" where Hirsch is prominantly featured. I think it's on sound aspects. It's been a while since I've listened to it but I remember enjoying it quite a bit. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Selling again......:-) Date: 06 Aug 1998 21:08:47 EDT Fellow Zornophiles, For those of you that have been patronizing my CD sale lists (and anyone else for that matter), I've recently added quite a few items. Email me for the latest version of the list. Thanks in advance! Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Handley" Subject: graewe+houle+leandre=? Date: 07 Aug 1998 10:44:47 PDT I seem to hear a lot of talk on this list about Joelle Leandre and Francois Houle, both of whom I intend to check out. But how about the below release w/my man Georg Graewe? LIVE AT BANLIEUES BLEUES Joëlle Léandre, bass, voice; Georg Graewe, piano; François Houle, clarinet. Bei-spiel (05.42), Halos (02.57), From limbo (02.53), Aizi (03.22), Démonique (01.26), Qalam (04.29), Such as it is (03.15), Shekinah (03.39), Let the thus be (04.00), Anaphora (03.57), Cracks and clouds (02.54), Lumière irréparable de l'aurore (08.09), Aizimen (05.02). Recorded at Banlieues Bleues, Paris on 11 April 1996. Haven't heard it, haven't heard anything about it...but wow! The firepower. Anyone heard it? --scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: naked city video Date: 08 Aug 1998 11:59:00 -0400 I just received a copy of the Naked City Marquee Club video. It's available for $25 + $5 shipping (unless you happen to be in Chicago) from: VideoBeat Music Videos 2616 N Clark Street Chicago, IL 60614 773-871-6667 FAX: 773-872-1482 VideoBeat@aol.com (They also have a Web page, but I've misplaced the URL.) They have quite a collection, and I got it within 6 days of wandering into the store and asking about it. Scott Handley wrote: > > Thanks to patrice, this info has been on the web for a while (check the > videography at the end of his goliathan JZ mediography): > > NAKED CITY AT THE MARQUEE CLUB, NYC: 4/9/92 - 120 min. video - 9 (filmed > right after RADIO session) -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: naked city video Date: 08 Aug 1998 16:02:38 EDT In a message dated 8/8/98 12:02:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jzitt@humansystems.com writes: > I just received a copy of the Naked City Marquee Club video. It's > available for $25 + $5 shipping (unless you happen to be in Chicago) > from: > > VideoBeat Music Videos > 2616 N Clark Street > Chicago, IL 60614 > 773-871-6667 FAX: 773-872-1482 > VideoBeat@aol.com > (They also have a Web page, but I've misplaced the URL.) What a RIP OFF!! And not to mention the audacity to sell a bootlegged, audience shot video. That Marquee show was also professionally shot, and aired on Japanese TV, but it was only about an hours worth, and I bet this place is selling 120 minutes of the audience shot video (like that place in MA was doing). The whole show was about 150 minutes. Anyways, this is bad news!!! Stay away from this place! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: naked city video Date: 08 Aug 1998 17:16:55 EDT In a message dated 98-08-08 16:06:24 EDT, IOUaLive1@aol.com writes: << What a RIP OFF!! And not to mention the audacity to sell a bootlegged, audience shot video. >> This is an area I'm very familiar with but not involved in - $25 is the going rate for any bootlegged video. Its a buyer-driven market, just like bootleg audio. If people want it, and its available, they'll buy it. Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: naked city video Date: 08 Aug 1998 17:32:54 -0400 IOUaLive1@aol.com wrote: > What a RIP OFF!! And not to mention the audacity to sell a bootlegged, > audience shot video. That Marquee show was also professionally shot, and > aired on Japanese TV, but it was only about an hours worth, and I bet this > place is selling 120 minutes of the audience shot video (like that place in MA > was doing). The whole show was about 150 minutes. Anyways, this is bad > news!!! Stay away from this place! I've only watched the first half hour of it (which, if I guess correctly) is a performance of Leng T'che. I was wondering what was with the other cameraman seen occasionally on stage. So: if the professional video is so much better, and if we should stay away from what appears to be the only other video document of the band in action, including 90 minutes (yes, it's 150 minutes of video) that the professional video omits -- please tell us how we might be able to see the supposedly superior version. -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: naked city video Date: 09 Aug 1998 03:35:07 EDT A few years ago, I too would have dropped 25 bucks for this video. People will obviously spend the money. But I was just letting people know that this is an audience shot video and not professionally done (the place selling it may neglect to mention that in their catalog...). My point was- try and find it somewhere else, find someone who will trade you a copy for free. And if you search hard enough you can also get a copy of the pro-shot version. Believe me, if I had the time I'd make copies of this for everyone that wanted one. So search around first, but if all else fails and 25$ seems like a bargain to you, then by all means buy it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Felix" Subject: Mori+Coleman+Lindsay+Ribot+Kang Date: 09 Aug 1998 22:28:14 +0200 WOW! Last night I witnessed to one of the most amazing shows since Zorn brought Masada to Portugal. Opening was Carlos Zingaro (violin) with Gunther Müller (percussion), Otomo Yoshinide (turntables and guitar) and another portuguses Emidio Buchinho (guitar). They were great, specially Yoshinide and Müller, who kept making these weird sounds. I strongly suggest them. Oval was interesting, and the guy was on stage only for about half an hour so it didn't get too annoying. Then came the ones I was hoping for - Ikue Mori, Anthony Coleman, Marc Ribot, Eyvind Kang and Arto Lindsay, all together. They were a little uninspired at first, and there were some stupid people booing their sounds, but then they showed what they were really made off. Ikue Mori was very peacefull and serene. Is she always like that when playing live? Kang and Ribot were always twisting in their chairs. Lindsay had this look like he was having the time of his life and Coleman I couldn't see because of the seat I was in, but his playing was awe inspiring (specially his solo with piano, organ and effects). All in all it was a great show and the crowd ended up crying for two encores. BTW, I reccomend the following portuguese artists and guarantee their quality: Carlos Zingaro (whom I spoke off above) and Nuno Rebelo (a guitarrist who makes wonderful experimental music to acompany contemporary dancing). Felix jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jascha Subject: Bloodcount Date: 09 Aug 1998 21:05:42 -0400 (EDT) The other day i was listening to the Bloodcount 3cd set at a store, and my random samplings of the three discs landed me at the first song of the 'average daze' disc, 'loose ends'. EGAD! I've never quite heard anything like it. The stuff on the other discs didn't strike as being transcendentally cool as that song did, so i'm wondering: i'm too short of cash to go around buying 3cd sets because of one song, but i could afford to send a blank tape and a SASE to some kind Bloodcount fan who could maybe copy that song for me, and perhapse a sampling of other transcendentally cool tracks from the other CDs so that i might later go and buy one of my very own (...see, it's not copywrite violation, it's advertising...). What are the other albums like, anyway? The long, long tracks on the other discs of the set were good, but wouldn't be something i'd listen to over and over again. any more stuff along the lines of 'loose ends'? To my faceless, tape-making e-friend, whoever you are - thanks!, -jascha - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: NAKED CITY DISCS Date: 09 Aug 1998 23:37:56 EDT hello friends abroad. i am interested in naked city. i own the self-titled album and abstinthe and bought radio today. now everyone i've talked to doesn't really think highly of radio, and i want to know why. i think it's an excellent disc, which is certainly better than abstinthe. it's quite interesting. there is some really funky shit on hear, and the eye screaming is somewhat tolerable. so i wanna hear it. what is the problem everyone has with this album?and if you like it, then support it like i have. also i'd love to hear some reviews/synopsis' of grand guignol and heretic. i've heard some of the classical stuff from gg and i like it. oh and also what is this radio v. 2 thing? the FAQ says it's never been released or anything, or even recorded, but i'd like to know some more. thanx alex - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: naked city video Date: 10 Aug 1998 00:08:27 -0400 Good points. If I can find the professional video around at a non-pain-inducing price, I'll definitely grab it, my interest having been piqued by the bootleg. I hadn't found either around before, and the bootleg seemed worth the $25 gamble when I stumbled across it. Others' mileage may vary. (BTW, who is the long-haired guy who was trading screams with Y.Eye?) IOUaLive1@aol.com wrote: > > A few years ago, I too would have dropped 25 bucks for this video. People > will obviously spend the money. But I was just letting people know that this > is an audience shot video and not professionally done (the place selling it > may neglect to mention that in their catalog...). My point was- try and find > it somewhere else, find someone who will trade you a copy for free. And if > you search hard enough you can also get a copy of the pro-shot version. > Believe me, if I had the time I'd make copies of this for everyone that wanted > one. So search around first, but if all else fails and 25$ seems like a > bargain to you, then by all means buy it. > > - -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: naked city Date: 10 Aug 1998 00:16:14 EDT >(BTW, who is the long-haired guy who was trading screams with Y.Eye?) kevin sharp from brutal truth - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Comma to perform with Baltimore's John Berndt Date: 10 Aug 1998 00:24:32 -0500 Comma, of which I am a third (along with Tom Bickley and Joe Zitt), is performing this Saturday for those who are interested: Saturday, August 15: Brend and Bend with John Berndt, saxophone, self-built instruments and electronics 8:00 PM, $5 Ruthless Grip Art Project 1508 U Street, NW Washington, DC 20009 The evening will consist of mostly free improvisation with some structure= d improv thrown in. Comma will perform a few pieces from their repertory, followed by a solo by John Berndt, then concluding with all four in simultaneous/synchronous music making. I hope those who can will come! It's our last concert at Ruthless Grip th= is summer. The final concert of the Comma:summer::new:music series will be o= n September 19th, "Masses of Time, Cycles of Light: Stockhausen at 70" at t= he University of Maryland and will feature a portion of "Tierkreis" along wi= th selections from "Aus den Sieben Tagen" and "F=FCr Kommende Zeiten." More information about Comma:summer::new:music can be found on our web pages at http://www.artswire.org/comma/csnm On another note, the three members of Comma will be featured Monday eveni= ng (that's August 10) on live radio, WMUC FM, 88.1 in the College Park, MD area. WMUC is also available via the Internet and RealAudio, so go to http://www.wmuc.umd.edu and follow the links to the RealAudio page and tu= ne us in! Contact me if you need directions to Ruthless Grip! | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | | | | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | | | | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jtalbot@massart.edu Subject: praxis-metatron Date: 10 Aug 1998 12:43:31 -0500 i have a copy of praxis "metatron" on cd. i am lookin to trade this for another cd. if anybody is interested please respond privately. thanks jason jtalbot@massart.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Handley" Subject: relatively cheap stuff Date: 10 Aug 1998 11:25:34 PDT I hope nobody gets annoyed by this, but for those who haven't noticed, CDNow is concurrently having a sale and discount, which ends tomorrow. I just thought it'd be relevant because I picked up (on backorder, of course) a couple Winter & Winter releases and Towering Inferno's KADDISH. The W&W "jazz" stuff is $13. And if you fiddle around and go to "IMUSIC.com" you can get a $10 discount. This expires tomorrow. I am in no way connected to CDNow, but I now we could all save coins. If this is spam, correct me, and apologies. --scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hugues Roulon" Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #432 Date: 11 Aug 1998 00:16:53 +0200 > >Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:44:47 PDT >From: "Scott Handley" >Subject: graewe+houle+leandre=3D? > >I seem to hear a lot of talk on this list about Joelle Leandre and >Francois Houle, both of whom I intend to check out. But how about the >below release w/my man Georg Graewe? > >LIVE AT BANLIEUES BLEUES > >Jo=EBlle L=E9andre, bass, voice; Georg Graewe, piano; Fran=E7ois Houle, >clarinet. > >Bei-spiel (05.42), Halos (02.57), From limbo (02.53), Aizi (03.22), >D=E9monique (01.26), Qalam (04.29), Such as it is (03.15), Shekinah >(03.39), Let the thus be (04.00), Anaphora (03.57), Cracks and clouds >(02.54), Lumi=E8re irr=E9parable de l'aurore (08.09), Aizimen (05.02). > >Recorded at Banlieues Bleues, Paris on 11 April 1996. > >Haven't heard it, haven't heard anything about it...but wow! The >firepower. Anyone heard it? Sorry for answering so lately but I'm on digest. I have this record. I have to admit that It's been a long time since I listened to it but it is good improv stuff. You can buy it if you like bo= th Leandre and Houle. I remember I bought it with another record by Leandre that I listened to = a lot: LES DIABOLIQUES with Irene Schweizer (piano) and Maggie Nicols (Voic= e). It is a collection of little funny surrealistic songs. Hugues ROULON http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Williams Subject: Knitting Factory Prog fest Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:27:53 -0500 Heres some (forwarded)news that should make a few people happy! Beginning Saturday, September 5th through Tuesday the 8th, New York's Knitting Factory plays host to a summit of the rock avant-garde's past, present and future. Pillars of experimental rock's European wing will gather at the Knit for several exclusive, soon-to-be historic collaborative performances. The festivities commence Saturday with an incendiary performance from Brainville, teaming the legendary Daevid Allen with his fellow Soft Machine alum Hugh Hopper, as well as his former colleague in Gong, drummer Pip Pyle, alongside hometown eccentric and Shimmy-Disc czar Kramer, best known for his work with Bongwater. Those left standing from Saturday's blowout will gather Sunday evening for two intimate shows from the recently resurgent troubadour, Roy Harper. The highly revered songwriter of 1970's Britain (and featured guest vocalist for Pink Floyd) will surely sell out, so devotees nation-wide best act quickly. Monday's very special festivities reunite old cohorts from the immortal Henry Cow. Avant-Rock stalwarts Peter Blegvad, Chris Cutler and John Greaves will appear in two distinct combos, Unearthed and Breadvan - the former, joined by famed H. Cow guitarist Fred Frith, highlights Blegvad's spoken-word explorations, the latter showcases the instrumental capabilities of these innovative giants (fans should also expect a visit from Mr. Frith during this performance, as well!) Truly, the results should be the stuff of lore. Tuesday the 8th, the aformentioned visionaries will be joined by several very special guests of the experimental bent, all to celebrate the groundbreaking work of Robert Wyatt. A fitting end to four days of unique forays into out-sound mania, this event promises to serve as a showcase for all the pioneers of rock's Outer Reaches, a State-of-the-Laboratory address those in the know cannot afford to miss. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tucker Dulin" Subject: coleman and trombone Date: 10 Aug 1998 21:06:18 -0400 Anybody know of recordings (Selfhaters or otherwise) on which Anthony Coleman plays trombone? I have the Abysmal Richness ... and his use of the trombone timbre is interesting, but terse ... wondering if there is more .. Thank you! Tucker - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Lankin Subject: seeking info for Myra Melford discography Date: 10 Aug 1998 21:12:30 -0400 I've recently compiled a discography on jazz pianist Myra Melford and am looking for any items I've missed. I'm especially interested in details of her Nisus tapes. She performed on Zorn's "Cobra Live." See http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html. Thanks. -- Alan Lankin lankina@worldnet.att.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: coleman and trombone Date: 10 Aug 1998 18:24:57 -0700 On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:06:18 -0400 "Tucker Dulin" wrote: > > Anybody know of recordings (Selfhaters or otherwise) on which Anthony > Coleman plays trombone? I have the Abysmal Richness ... and his use of the > trombone timbre is interesting, but terse ... wondering if there is more > .. Only two others to my knowledge: 063 - SELFHATERS: Anthony Coleman Anthony Coleman: organ, piano, sampler piano, voice, trombone, accordion; James Pugliese: percussion, trumpet; Doug Wieselman (all but (6)): E-flat clarinet; David Krakauer (8): bass clarinet; Michael Attias (3,4,5,6): clarinet, alto, baritone saxophone; Fred Lonberg-Holm (3,4,5,6): cello, banjo; Roy Nathanson (6): clarinet, soprano. 1996 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7110 (CD) 075 - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: BURT BACHARACH: various artists This record features Wayne Horvitz (1), Marc Ribot (2), Dave Douglas (3), Guy Klucevsek (4), Kramer (5), Erik Friedlander (6), Joey Baron (7), Zeena Parkins (8), Marc Ribot (9), Fred Frith (10), Medeski/Martin & Wood (11), Elliott Sharp (12), Marie McAuliffe (13), Mike Patton (14), Lloyd Cole and Robert Quine (15), Anthony Coleman's Selfhaters (16), Yuka Honda and Sean Lennon (17), Shelley Hirsch (18), Bill Frisell (19), Eyvind Kang (20). Robin Holcomb (1): vocals; Julie Wolf (1): vocals; Wayne Horvitz (1): pre- pared piano; Timothy Young (1): guitars; Marc Ribot (2,9): guitar; Charlie Giordano (2): keyboards; Greg Cohen (2): bass; Christine Bard (2): drums; Dave Douglas (3): trumpet; Scott Robinson (3): bass saxophone, piccolo, flute; Uri Caine (3): piano; Guy Klucevsek (4): accordion; Kramer (5): all intruments, vocals; Erik Friedlander (6): cello; Chris Speed (6): clarinet; Andrew D'Angelo (6): bass clarinet; Drew Gress (6): bass; Joey Baron (7): drums; Zeena Parkins (8): harps, organ; Sara Parkins (8): violin; Ikue Mori (8): electric percussion; Fred Frith (10): all instruments, vocals; John Medeski (11): mellotron, organ, electric piano; Chris Wood (11): bass; Billy Martin (11): drums; Elliott Sharp (12): all instruments; Marie McAuliffe (13): piano; David Hofstra (13): bass; Kevin Norton (13): drums; Robert Henke (13): flugelhorn; Clare Daly (13): tenor; Chris Washburne (13): trom- bone; Mike Patton (14): vocals, keyboards; William Winant (14): percussion, hammered dulcimer; David Slusser (14): theremin; Trey Spruance (14): guitar; Michael Peloquin (14): harmonica; Lloyd Cole (15): guitar, vocals; Robert Quine (15): guitars; Anthony Coleman (16,18): keyboards, trombone, vocals, accordion; Doug Wieselman (16): clarinet; Jim Pugliese (16): percussion, trumpet; Yuka Honda (17): keyboards, vocals; Sean Lennon (17): guitar, keyboards, drums, vocals; Shelley Hirsch (18): vocals; Jim Staley (18): trombone; Jon Hodges (18): background vocals; Max Lyandvent (18): background vocals; Bill Frisell (19): guitar; Eyvind Kang (20): erhu, acoustic and electric violins; Mint (20): bass, keyboard, drums, finger cymbals, alto recorder. 1997 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7114-2 (2xCD) Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Hopkins Subject: Re: CD Shops in Tokyo Date: 11 Aug 1998 12:52:06 +0000 At 09:56 PM 8/5/98 +0800, Chris Hunter wrote: >>I'm hoping to make it to Japan next month and while there hope to hear as >>much as possible of the free/jazz/improv music that you hear on the Tzadik >>and Avant labels etc. >> >>Well it's been a few years since I have been there but Wave in Tokyo was >the place. However, there were numerous stores in the Akihabara that had >much broader selections than one would find in the US. > >something that dan hill & i have been working on state51's motion website >is a specialist recordshop finder. visitors can look shops up by location >or genre specialism. what's important though is that the information is >all provided by the public; visitors can post information on shops and >leave their own observations/comments. at the moment we haven't got much >tokyo stuff in there - which is madness as my own experience indicates >that there are more specialist record shops per square mile than in any >city on earth. so, if you come across anything out there, please, please, >let us know about it it. cheers! simon hopkins an associate member of the state51 conspiracy check out new reviews on ---+ motion: carla bley & paul haines; sushi 4004;john french; mixmaster mike; men with guns original soundtrack; subarachnoid space; volume allstars http://www.state51.co.uk/motion - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "robert ludington" Subject: texaco/jazz fest Date: 11 Aug 1998 13:30:41 PDT hello fellow Zorn-sters.... As this is my first post to the list, i'm not sure if the topic is either relivant, or warrants discussion, but i sure think so. I appologize in advance if not.... I'm a student planning to major in music, and minor in sociology when I start college this fall. Due to my intrest in sociology I've been getting more involved in activism, boycotts, social awareness & other actions that I as a person & consumer can take to right what I feel is wrong...... but i digress, the point of this is recently I discovered several things about Texaco that I feel warrant a boycott of their products, and sponsored events..... and one such event is the Jazz Fest they sponsor in NY, which Zorn & his fellow compatriots have performed at..... and I feel that as fans we should voice to him/them any concerns about this. I also feel that Jazz, in past & present, has -totally- been about social change, and activism..... I realise that it is hard enough for these artists to find platforms for which to be heard, but I think that if they knew about Texaco's well guarded secrets that they would reconsider. They are guilty of more than just the discrimination suit that was brought against them recently, and for information you should visit: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3199/texaco.html thanx for your time, and again, i apologize if this either seems extremist, or isn't relevant to the zorn list.... but i thought it was worth mentioning. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Uncle Meat Subject: New York, August 26-28 Date: 11 Aug 1998 18:43:18 -0400 Hi, i'll be spending a couple of days in New York City at the end of this month (August 26-28) and i'd appreciate some recommandations on musical events to attend and music stores to check out wich would sell the kind of music discussed on this list. Thanks Uncle Meat - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: filmworks revisited Date: 11 Aug 1998 19:03:48 -0400 A while back there was an inquiry about the filmworks set. Since that time I picked up III used and VIII new, so I thought I'd pass along a few comments. Filmworks III contains four sets of material. Many will be interested in the earliest recordings of what was to become the Masada group (with Marc Ribot on one of the twelve tracks), and not playing Masada material, but a more bluesy soundtrack reminiscent of Miles' Escalator to the Scaffold. There are also a number of duets between Ribot and Zorn, which are also excellent. But these two sets take up less than half the CD. Apart from a draft for the Cynical Hysterie Hour (3 minutes), the bulk of the CD is cues which Zorn put together for the advertising firm of Weiden and Kennedy. Now there is some great playing here, but in about a half hour there are 31 tracks, some of which barely have time to introduce all the players before they fade out. There's some really great music, but absolutely no room for anyone to state a theme (much less stretch), and I found the overall effect very frustrating. Filmworks VIII is a different story. The Masada String Trio is augmented by Ribot, Anthony Coleman on piano, and Min Xiao-Fen on pipa. Beautiful renditions of beautiful pieces, highly recommended for Bar Kokhba fans. The disc is supplemented by equally fine percussion duets between Cyro Baptista and Kenny Wollesen. Unlike some of JZ's other two-work disks (I'm thinking specifically of Duras/Duchamp), the two works on this disc blend together very well, and I find this to be one of JZ's most listenable outings. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Uncle Meat Date: 11 Aug 1998 17:25:31 -0700 I don't know anything about New York but I am glad to see a Frank Zappa fan on this list - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MY IDEA FOR ZORN'S NEXT PROJECT Date: 11 Aug 1998 20:42:11 EDT behold all, i've come up with an idea. it's similar to what charlie hunter did with natty dread, but not really. basically my idea is for zorn and friends to cover an entire "important" musical album. the specific album would've been much better for naked city, but i think zorn could still pull it together. the album is maggot brain by funkadelic. imagine it! zorn covering every second of it. the title track could feature marc ribot or frisell or elliot sharp tearing up the hazelness of maggot brain. or zorn himself could take that song on. or how about buckethead? that would be perfect! here is my proposed lineup for this album alto saxophone, clarinet, gamecalls, arranger- zorn guitars- frisell, sharp,ribot, buckethead organ/piano-wayne horvitz,john medeski, uri caine drums- joey baron, rashied ali, bobby previte bass- kemit driscoll, bill laswell trumpet- dave douglas clarinet- don byron vocals- dean bowman, kramer, arto lindsay, mikepatton, eye for wars of armageddon, don byron, zorn, uri caine, yuka honda stings- mark feldman, carol emaneul, jill jaffe percussion- cyro baptista call me crazy. of course they could never get this lineup together. but those of you familiar with this brilliant funkadelic album, wouldn't this be beautiful? please respond everyone i'd love to here whatcha think - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MY IDEA FOR ZORN'S NEXT PROJECT Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:31:46 EDT In a message dated 98-08-11 20:44:54 EDT, DEANER76@aol.com writes: << behold all, i've come up with an idea. it's similar to what charlie hunter did with natty dread, but not really. basically my idea is for zorn and friends to cover an entire "important" musical album. >> I like this idea actually.....and since we're dreaming, I'd vote for The Rite of Spring! Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: MY IDEA FOR ZORN'S NEXT PROJECT Date: 11 Aug 1998 22:42:11 -0400 TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > I like this idea actually.....and since we're dreaming, I'd vote for The Rite > of Spring! Y'know, I was actually thinking of the following the other day, as it would fit comfortably into a "Great Jewish Music" slot, while also allowing a re-interpretation of a 20th century undervalued masterpiece a la JZ's 'Grand Guignol' covers: I'd love to hear him tackle Marc Blitzstein's 'Airborne Symphony'! A somewhat reined-in (until 'The Open Sky'!) David Moss might make a fine narrator, while David Garland might sing the lead on lovely songs like 'Ballad of the Bombardier'. Mmmmm. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: filmworks revisited Date: 12 Aug 1998 00:39:53 EDT In a message dated 8/11/98 7:04:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cdeupree@interagp.com writes: << Filmworks III contains four sets of material. Many will be interested in the earliest recordings of what was to become the Masada group (with Marc Ribot on one of the twelve tracks), and not playing Masada material, but a more bluesy soundtrack reminiscent of Miles' Escalator to the Scaffold. There are also a number of duets between Ribot and Zorn, which are also excellent. But these two sets take up less than half the CD. Apart from a draft for the Cynical Hysterie Hour (3 minutes), the bulk of the CD is cues which Zorn put together for the advertising firm of Weiden and Kennedy. Now there is some great playing here, but in about a half hour there are 31 tracks, some of which barely have time to introduce all the players before they fade out. There's some really great music, but absolutely no room for anyone to state a theme (much less stretch), and I found the overall effect very frustrating. >> I understand what you're driving at here, but after taking into account what these tracks were originally intended for- I consider them absolutely brilliant for doing what they do in such a short length of time, that is, setting up an atmosphere for an advertisement. Maybe this is a collection best intended for the completist Zornie. Own up, Caleb- we're just spoiled by the good stuff...;-) spinning: World Standard- Country Gazette =dgasque= - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Newgarden Subject: Tonic New Music Series continues . . . Date: 12 Aug 1998 00:55:25 -0400 (EDT) The New Music Series at Tonic 107 Norfolk St. between Delancey and Rivington St., New York City (F or J train to Delancey / Essex St.) info line: 212-358-7503 / www.tonic107.com August Wed 12 John Zorn's COBRA $10 Thu 13 Frank London $8 Fri 14 Mark Helias $10 Sat 15 Guy Klucevsek $8 Sun 16 Rashied Ali, Louis Belogenis & Wilber Morris $10 Wed 19 Judy Dunaway - CRI CD Release Party FREE 8/20-22 Great Young Percussionist/Composers Weekend Thu 20 Ben Perowsky Trio $6 Fri 21 John Hollenbeck's Claudia Quintet $6 Sat 22 Lukas Ligeti $6 Wed 26 Andrea Parkins/Jim Black Duo $6 Thu 27 Naftule's Dream $8 Fri 28 Norman Yamada $6 Sat 29 Billy Martin/Calvin Weston Duo $10 Wed 2 Drew Gress's Jagged Sky $6 Thur 3 Ned Rothenberg/Bobby Previte/Marc Ribot $10 9/4 & 5 SOLO STRINGS Fri 4 Elliott Sharp, Mari Kimura, Nick Didkovsky $10 Sat 5 Loren Mazzacane Connors, Kato Hideki, Chris Cochrane $10 Sun 6 John Zorn & Fred Frith $10 (early show - R. Stevie Moore - 7pm $6) Wed 9 Oscar Noriega Quartet $6 Thu 10 Karl Berger $10 Fri 11 Cuong Vu $6 Sat 12 Les Batteries (Rick Brown & Guigou Chenevier) $8 Wed 16 Dorgon $6 Thu 17 Anthony Coleman $8 Fri 18 Paradigm Shift $8 Sat 19 Soultronix $6 Wed 23 Double Bass Drum (Mark Dresser, Gerry Hemingway, Mike Sarin, Skuli Sverrisson) 9/24-26 John Zorn's Masada $10 Wed 30 Dan Willis CD Release Party $6 10/1-3 John Zorn's Bar Kokhba $10 Performances are at 9:00 and 10:30. No advance tickets. [Sept./Oct. is being curated by accordionist/composer Ted Reichman, who has played on numerous albums by Anthony Braxton (including Braxton/Reichman Duo on Music & Art) and is also a member of David Krakauer's Klezmer Madness. Ted has also performed with Steve Beresford, Anthony Coleman, Guy Klucevsek, Alvin Lucier, Christian Wolff and Eugene Chadbourne among others. October will feature a special week of diverse performances by Haino Keiji. Elliott Sharp will be curating the Tonic New Music Series in November.] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: great jewish bolan Date: 12 Aug 1998 14:03:05 +0200 (MEST) well, anyone have any idea when the bolan tribute disc will be released??? BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: great jewish bolan Date: 12 Aug 1998 08:25:43 -0700 On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:03:05 +0200 (MEST) BJOERN wrote: > > well, > anyone have any idea when the bolan tribute disc will be released??? *** - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: MARC BOLAN: various artists This record features Arto Lindsay (1), Rebecca Moore (2), Kramer (3), Melvins (4), Medeski/Martin & Wood (5), Lo Galluccio (6), Mike Patton (7), Tall Dwarfs (8), Chris Cochrane (9), Gary Lucas (10), Eszter Balint (11), Audio Noir (12), Danny Cohen (13), Elysian Fields (14), Sean Lennon & Yuka Honda (15), Cake Like (16), Trey Spruance (17), Buckethead (18), Lloyd Cole (19). 1/ Children Of The Revolution (Arto Lindsay) 2/ Telegram Sam (Rebecca Moore) 3/ Get It On (Kramer) 4/ Buick McKane (Melvins) 5/ Groove A Little (MM&W) 6/ Cosmic Dancer (Lo Galluccio) 7/ Chariot Choogle (Mike Patton) 8/ Ride A White Swan (Tall Dwarfs) 9/ Rip-Off (Chris Cochrane) 10/ Debora Arobed (Gary Lucas) 11/ Mambo Sun (Eszter Balint) 12/ Jeepster (Audio Noir) 13/ Lunacy's Back (Danny Cohen) 14/ Life's A Gas (Elysian Fields) 15/ Would I Be The One (Lennon, Honda) 16/ Love Charm (Cake Like) 17/ Sceneslof (Trey Spruance) 18/ 20th Century Boy (Buckethead) 19/ Romany Soup (Lloyd Cole) 1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7125 (CD) Note: not released yet (planned for September 1998). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marks, Andy" Subject: RE: great jewish bolan Date: 12 Aug 1998 10:28:15 -0500 Anyone know what else is due for release from Tzadik in September? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M. Forrest Lewis" Subject: zappa Date: 12 Aug 1998 09:33:03 -0600 >I don't know anything about New York but I am glad to see a Frank Zappa >fan on this list ditto. zappa lives. -louie - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: great jewish bolan Date: 12 Aug 1998 08:37:28 -0700 On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:28:15 -0500 "Marks, Andy" wrote: > > Anyone know what else is due for release > from Tzadik in September? John Zorn -- Aporias: Requia for Orchestra Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re: zappa Date: 12 Aug 1998 12:11:07 -0500 >I don't know anything about New York but I am glad to see a Frank Zappa >fan on this list One thing that's struck me as curious: It would seem clear that Zappa's 'Lumpy Gravy' (and similar efforts here and there on his early records) was a direct antecedant to JZ's cut-up efforts of the mid 80's. To the best of my knowledge, Zorn has never acknowledged this. Does anyone know otherwise? FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: re:zappa Date: 12 Aug 1998 15:38:19 EDT >FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears. Brian Olewnick interesting. somehow i would have thought there are more out there who thought his compositions got more interesting after he stopped using musicians to play them. have you checked out civilization phase III? i would say try b4 you buy, but check it out. not that i don't like the older stuff, but i think he got better... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: anybody has 300 by Briggan Krauss? Date: 12 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0700 I was wondering if anybody was successful to find 300 by Briggan Krauss? Patrice. PS: be carefull that if you say yes, you take the risk that I will ask you for a detailed description of the record... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David J. Keffer" Subject: Question regarding Phew Date: 12 Aug 1998 18:06:22 -0400 Hello Folks on the Zorn list, I have a question for you all regarding the vocalist Phew. There are a couple of relatively recent records that feature her that I am looking for reviews on: PHEW "Himitsu No Knife" CREATIVEMAN DISC CMDD 10, 1995 Here she is backed by a group led by Ground Zero/P.O.N.'s Uemura Masahiro, with much backing help from Otomo Yoshihide (turntables, guitar). NOVO TONE "Panorama Paradise" CREATIVEMAN DISC CMDD 38, >1995 A group featuring Phew (vocals), Seiichi Yamamoto (guitar; Boredoms), Otomo Yoshihide (turntables), Masahiro Uemura (drums; P.O.N.), All I have heard by Phew are her first self-titled album from 1981 with the members of CAN and the 1993 Anton Fier album "Dreamspeed" on AVANT (AVAN 009). I dug both of these quite a bit. Any reviews positive or negative on the Creativeman discs would be appreciated. References to the either of the two albums I have heard would be useful. Thanks. David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Question regarding Phew Date: 12 Aug 1998 15:20:05 -0700 At 06:06 PM 8/12/98 -0400, David J. Keffer wrote: >All I have heard by Phew are her first self-titled album from 1981 with the >members >of CAN and the 1993 Anton Fier album "Dreamspeed" on AVANT (AVAN 009). She is on the Blind Light CD that was something of a followup to _Dreamspeed_. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Seth Gordon Subject: Re: zappa Date: 12 Aug 1998 20:05:29 PDT I believe that JZ mentioned Zappa in the liner notes on "The Big Gundown"- but it might have been somewhere else. I'm at work now and don't have the CD on me, so I can't check. As for the early / late period FZ issue- I admit that after "Burnt Weeny" he got a little tame (Was BWS before or after "Hot Rats"?- I dig that one alot too.), but I think in his final yeras he put out some of his finest work. "The Yellow Shark" had some truly beautiful moments, enough to make up the debacle that was the "LSO" series. I think in his later days, as he grew accustomed to the idea of himself as a composer he no longer felt it necessary to put a little "rock" into everything (as on LSO)- to a much more satisfying listening experience. I especially like the smaller, chamber works for strings ("Times Beach" in particular) and the piano works ("Ruth is Sleeping" stands out, as does "Girl in the Magnesium Dress"). Granted, some of these pieces he had written upwards of a decade prior- but I think it's the simplified arrangements that really let them shine. But hell, that's just my opinion... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Looking for insight Date: 12 Aug 1998 20:11:02 EDT Greetings all.... OK....I feel like I'm showing my ignorance here or something, but I trust the opinions I see here (usually!). I simply do not "get" Tim Berne!!!! I've got the following discs: Diminuitive Mysteries (Mostly Hemphill) Sanctified Dreams Caos Totale - Nice View The Paris Concert - Memory Select The Paris Concert - Poisoned Minds The Paris Concert - Lowlife If someone can point me at what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, the discs will probably be on my next sale list!! Thanks. Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: snilsen@panda.uchc.edu (Steven Nilsen) Subject: Short track listening. Date: 12 Aug 1998 21:45:53 -0600 I sorta agree with what was said about finding JZ's short songs attention draining, and ultimately aggravating. You really enjoy the musicianship, but they're difficult to enjoy forthe frustrating lack of themes. I found a few solutions to this problem. First, throw a disc with several short peices in with several other CDs and play them together on random. Much of JZ's music is fantastic spice to bring out the flavor of other music- an occational snip between Myra and Medeski sounds super. Second idea, one I haven't tried but think would work. Do a listening session with a friend. Discuss each little piece, pause before the next, with little ideas or emotional responses. Turning up the volume really loud and doing this while tweaked could be excellent fun. Just a few thoughts to add life to those dusty Filmworks. -Steven - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: Question regarding Phew Date: 12 Aug 1998 23:02:21 -0700 > >NOVO TONE "Panorama Paradise" CREATIVEMAN DISC CMDD 38, >1995 >A group featuring Phew (vocals), Seiichi Yamamoto (guitar; Boredoms), Otomo >Yoshihide (turntables), Masahiro Uemura (drums; P.O.N.), > >All I have heard by Phew are her first self-titled album from 1981 with the >members >of CAN and the 1993 Anton Fier album "Dreamspeed" on AVANT (AVAN 009). I dug >both of these quite a bit. Any reviews positive or negative on the >Creativeman discs >would be appreciated. I have and like the Novo Tono (notice it's o note e) disc and like it quit a bit. It's all in the "rock" world but I'd put it with the Boredoms or other VERY tight, high energy, lots of different sounds type bands like the Boredoms. Most of the lyrics are in Japanese. There are a few "ambient" tracks but the more rockin tracks are very tight borderline amazing. Phew plays a major role and sings on most tracks. She does her spoken/sung thing like on her solo record on a few (a pun waiting to happen) tracks. This disc is not perfect by any means...there are some horrendous (almost humorous) light 70s folk rock songs. mike mhowes@best.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Corey Marc Fogel Subject: Re: Looking for insight Date: 13 Aug 1998 00:56:10 -0700 (MST) On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > Sanctified Dreams > Caos Totale - Nice View > The Paris Concert - Memory Select > The Paris Concert - Poisoned Minds > The Paris Concert - Lowlife > > If someone can point me at what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, the > discs will probably be on my next sale list!! here's what youre missing, Bloodcount - Saturation Point, Loose Cannon with Jeff Hershfield and Michael Formanek, Miniature with Joey Baron, Fulton Street Maul. own those, and maybe you'll "Get" him. but assuming you didnt go buy those. based on what you have, what's not to "get"? listen to his distinct compositions and the pain in his playing....and ..the end. or just sell your cds to me - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Hewins Subject: New MMW Date: 13 Aug 1998 11:40:29 -0500 Anybody else get the new MMW? I got it and I have given it quite a few listenings. Although I like it, I think I have to agree with the overwhelming response of my friends wh say that Billy Martin needs some new beats. I seem to remember from the other discs that he would play different beats here and there but this disc has him doing his trademark groove (which, don't get me wrong, isn't bad) on the majority of the tracks. I have to say that I like the inclusion of DJ Olive on three of the tracks. I like what he does with the turntable. (My way into the DJ/turntable thing has been through the jazz-er side of things, especially the sort of music that we on this list overlap on. Take that to mean that I am relatively new to the sub-genre and am not aware of what is and can be done by these DJs.) He's not always scratching, using the turntable as a rhythm instument. He uses it to play bits of the records as samples and gets some really interesting sounds out of it. The disc as a whole is mellower than Shack Man. I'll probably keep listening to it but I think it will be one that I may get tired of eventually. Well, I'm considering making the drive up to Chicago (from STL) to see them. They'll be playing with DJ Olive, if I have my facts straight. Has anyone seen them recently? Anyone planning on going in Chicago? Dan - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Hewins Subject: Re: Looking for insight Date: 13 Aug 1998 11:28:44 -0500 Dale, You're missing one of the best: Bloodcount "Unwound" In my opinion, the Paris Concert Bloodcount albums are tame compared to more recent Bloodcount. Jim Black seems to have changed in the time that separates the releases -- and for the better. "Mutant Variations" and "The Ancestors" are good discs as well. Big Satan with Marc Ducret and Tom Rainey is kick-ass but I have to say that, for me, the two other guys are what keep my attention rather that Tim... Even with these suggestions, I'm afraid that maybe you just don't/won't like Tim Berne because "Diminutive Mysteries" is really, really good. That is up there on my list as one of the best Berne releases. I hope this helps, Dan >OK....I feel like I'm showing my ignorance here or something, but I trust the >opinions I see here (usually!). I simply do not "get" Tim Berne!!!! I've got >the following discs: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jtalbot@massart.edu Subject: naked city video Date: 13 Aug 1998 12:52:43 -0500 i recently offered the "naked city marquee 4.4.92" video for trade on this list. the copy i have is the audience shot full legth version. the quality is good. i'm not sure how it is in comparison to the "professional" shot but the copy i have is the full show, not the 90min version. i've been mostly interested in trade for this video (it actually fits on two videos). i also have a copy of naked city on a finnish tv special. i've had a lot of requests for these videos and unfortunately could not get them out to everyone interested for reasons such as video format (i can not dub PAL format) etc. i'm in the middle of taking care of the trades i could work out. if anyone is really interested in seeing these videos i could do some more trades in middle to late september once the trades i am doing now are taken care of. anyone interested can send me a trade list if they wish. any questions about these videos or whatever please respond privately. thanks jason jtalbot@massart.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Handley" Subject: Re: Looking for insight (t. berne) Date: 13 Aug 1998 11:11:34 PDT >On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > >> Sanctified Dreams >> Caos Totale - Nice View >> The Paris Concert - Memory Select >> The Paris Concert - Poisoned Minds >> The Paris Concert - Lowlife >> >> If someone can point me at what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it. [snip] >here's what youre missing, Bloodcount - Saturation Point, Loose Cannon with >Jeff Hershfield and Michael Formanek, Miniature with Joey Baron, Fulton Street >Maul. own those, and maybe you'll "Get" him. ...based on what you have, what's not to >"get"? listen to his distinct compositions and the pain in his playing....and >..the end. ... Sorry for the long-ass clip, but I'd like to respond to the above. First the BOTTOM LINE for those of you with less patience and time: I LIKE BERNE'S MUSIC AND ESPECIALLY BLOODCOUNT BECAUSE OF THE BEAUTIFUL DEVELOPMENT OF THE MUSIC, WHERE IMPROVISATION AND COMPOSITION COMBINE TO THE DEGREE OF BEING ALMOST INDISTINGUISHABLE. I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE TRUE ON THE THREE BLOODCOUNT CDs ON JMT THAN ON ANY OTHER RECORDINGS. KEEP THEM! THEY MAY GROW ON YOU LIKE SOMETHING ORGANIC (LIKE THE MUSIC ITSELF, WHICH GROWS AND SHAPES ITSELF LIKE NIGHT PLANTS). BUT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT: QUE SERA, SERA. First, ALL music has plenty that one can "not get"; I suspect that I get punk just fine, and I suspect it's bullshit...but my healthy sense of personal ignorance motivates me to at least suspend my disbelief and check out some records. I think it's great that Dale asked about Berne's music. I only have opinions, and most are positive. I'm not going to talk about the shapes that the music inspires in my head, but I personally love the spiderweb patterns in Bloodcount's music in particular, and in Berne's music in general. In spite of the formulas (unison-line grooves backing free-bop solos; the well-placed noise guitar freak-out; highly angular lines which are pretty homogeneous, insofar as most stuff written by Wayne Shorter for the mid sixties Miles group sound the same), I just think the guy is beautifully creative, and really accessible. I love listening to the track "Bloodcount" from LOWLIFE (not the UNWOUND version, though that has its own charms) and hearing the improvised solos tease and draw out the next episodic installment of the composition, until one is no longer sure whether improvisation gives way to composition or vice versa; abstraction and groove collide: I can have my JBs and my Ayler at the Vanguard, simultaneously, but all without the kind of pastiche that I suspect characterizes much of "postmodernism"'s more superficial casualties (respect to JZ and Schnittke). The last third of "Bloodcount" or the last ten minutes of "Eye Contact" are pure emotion (I agree in those cases with Corey's "pain" comment), and should go down in the book for apocalyptic endings. I also feel that at the end of a long Berne piece I really feel emptied; in the man's own words it's about the "drama" of it all. It works like tragedy, at it's best (the blowing session/head-solo-solo-solo-head approach deters this), and the effect is accordingly cathartic. Berne isn't my favorite saxophonist or improvisor, and he's also not much of a technical master or instrumental innovator, but neither was Miles Davis. The similarity, for me, between the two men comes down to the unlimited contextsa in which they excercised and tested their respective limitations. Dave Douglas does this too: he's a fundamentally linear improvisor who draws liberally from "the" "tradition", but there's no limit to what his MUSIC can do. Some on this list spoke in a qualified fashion about Berne's Paraphrase group because it's such a player's environment: Berne's is left naked to hold his own, and he does. But if you don't care for his playing...well...there's an awful LOT of it. I don't "get" a lot of Braxton's music, and there are aspects of it I KNOW I don't like (I simply regard them as shortcomings, quite simply shortcomings---genius has its limits); but Brax is a radical formal innovator who is Mr. Context as well. I'd rather listen to DD's SANCTUARY than a seemingly interminable jumble of thorny lines for four orchestras, but I'm glad it's all out there. Same with Evan Parker, who's said himself that context is everything (in the context of jamming: "that's all that ever happens when you play with other musicians: you go and play your sound, they use it in some way, and it goes into the mix" [WIRE article, check their website]). Composer-improvisors are the greatest, though, because they more often than not write FOR the musicians to the point where cmposition is almost equilaterally a collaborative effort. In this regard, Berne belongs to a long line of beautiful musical minds: Ellington, Cecil Taylor, Charles Mingus, and John Zorn, and those are just a few super-famous names I can think of right off. I'd also contest that Berne is one of the greatest current torchbearers for the IDEAS that the AACM was working with 30 years ago, but now the system's not the point, or not as much the point as it was then. I don't think Berne cares too much about "innovation", but I do think he was motivated by ennui to make music that sounded like nothing had before. And he succeeded. I think of Berne's music, at its best, as being a great meeting place for things I can find in more "pure" abundance elsewhere, but in exclusive abundance. Energy: Brotzmann. Intricately composed systems for working groups: Braxton. Radical juxtapositions of noise, genre, and style: John Zorn. Funky Butt: Maceo parker/F. Wesley/JBs. I find all that here. However, the bottom line is that if you aren't getting much out of something, great. That's what plurality is for. And damn, most of us on this list will NEVER BE ABLE TO ACQUIRE half the music we might really enjoy. That's depressing yet exhilarating. I'd encourage anyone to get and keep at least one of the Bloodcount Paris recordings, as they are landmarks of jazz next to which most of Berne's other stuff pales (IMNSHO). Plus Jim Black's a damn good drummer. And Chris Speed's kind of cute. \Apologies to Mike for the bandwidth-buster. thank you for reading this! -scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Cobra And Games Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:48:30 EDT I know that the list has gone over this topic several times, but i still don't feel that an accurate definition of the games has been presented. In no way or form do I understand the graph inside of the Hat release of Cobra, and i would really like to get an idea on how to perform one of these pieces, or at least know how they are assembled. Does anyone have any information? from, matt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vlad-Drac@webtv.net (Theo Klaase) Subject: Zappa Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:26:29 -0500 (CDT) I tend to lean toward the later offerings by Zappa. Especially when he used the Synclavier Machine to perform the music. To hear the Synclavier in top form check out "Jazz from Hell", "Mothers of Prevention", and yes "Civilization part 3". The band he used from '73 to '77 was arguably the best at his disposal but I often prefer the songs that the '88 band did. Hey, to each his own. I like Zorn's stuff better though. More room for improve and hypnotic trance shit. More alive, I thiink. -Theo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: new Blind Idiot God out? Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:20:17 -0700 Few month ago, somebody mentioned a new Blind Idiot God record to be released on Avant: ?? - ROCK: Blind Idiot God (1998 - Avant, Avan ?? (CD)) Has anybody seen it? Thanks, Patrice. PS: this is not a catch; I am just curious to know if it is out or not. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: weird little boy Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:38:54 -0700 Hey folks, Did any of you happen to spot the posting on alt.noise by someone named "Trey" about a week ago? Basically "Trey" (if it really is Trey Spruance) *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- he concludes, "Unless wasting thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs." (The vitriol goes on and on.) Can anyone confirm or deny if it was indeed him? Or was I trolled? I could post the whole message if you folks want (it hardly provoked any reaction on alt.noise, anyhow). Later, Ben np: john zorn, "pink" http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/ ICQ# 12832406 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Williams Subject: Re: zappa Date: 12 Aug 1998 20:06:16 -0500 Sulacco@aol.com wrote: > Brian Olewnick wrote > One thing that's struck me as curious: It would seem clear that Zappa's 'Lumpy > Gravy' (and similar efforts here and there on his early records) was a direct > antecedant to JZ's cut-up efforts of the mid 80's. To the best of my knowledge, > Zorn has never acknowledged this. Does anyone know otherwise? FWIW, I did once glimpse the famed JZ vinyl collection, and he had most or all of the early Verve discs. > >FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle > > Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears. > > > > interesting. somehow i would have thought there are more out there who thought > his compositions got more interesting after he stopped using musicians to play > them. I think that is part of what myself, and a lot of others, dislike about much of FZ's post-Mothers output. The early albums were made by a group of people who obviously had a ball playing together, where the later stuff is highly scripted, 100% FZ, and as he readily admitted, Zappa led a very insulated life. He claimed to have no "friends", only "employees". That attitude is bound to find its way into ones art. > have you checked out civilization phase III? i would say try b4 you buy, > but check it out. I really wanted to like this, but it sounds to me like he re-made Lumpy Gravy with state of the art digital technology. I would definitely recommend the live discs that the 1988 touring band made though. They cover quite a bit of the old repertoire as well as covers of Hendrix, Stravinsky, and others. And to Brian and others, who prefer the old stuff, check out the "Lost Episodes" disc. It has some of FZ 's earliest soundtrack work. BTW, The Zappa estate is very open to suggestions of what archival material to release next, And if enough people request it, maybe someday we'll see the 75 disc Complete Garrick Theatre 1967 box set... ;-) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: New Blind Idiot God? Date: 13 Aug 1998 15:17:08 PDT I think it was me who posted about a new BIG album, after seeing a listing for it at Music Boulevard, from which it has since disappeared. I checked around, and someone had a listing for it at gemm.com (it was called "Rock"), but the catalog number was the same as "Cyclotron". Didn't Avant give re-releases to some of the older albums in it's catalog recently, and if so, is it possible that's what it was? DB For Sale/Want List & Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographys at : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 00:05:22 +0100 > Basically "Trey" > *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- > > I could post the whole message if you folks want (it hardly provoked > any > reaction on alt.noise, anyhow). > I'd like to see this posting. Considering the rather alarmed thread that greeted this release on this list I'd like to know what the beef is? Personally I find WLB a perfectly acceptable set of improv/avant garde noise, not the best I've ever heard but not the worst either. Has JZ made any comments about it or Spruance's remarks? Yours curiously Scott Russell - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "robert ludington" Subject: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 13 Aug 1998 16:15:56 PDT I'm a big fan of God, especially the playing of the drummer/percussionist Lou Ciccotelli. I've noticed his influence quite a bit in my own playing recently, and was wondering if anyone had any info on him, or any other albums with his playing other than with God? I've searched the net with little result..... any help would be appreciated, thanx! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Two cents on Zappa Date: 13 Aug 1998 20:12:41 EDT For what its worth, I wanted to toss in some of my personal observations about Zappa. I can’t think of any other artists that I have such polar feelings about (and I should add, I own every Zappa CD that Ryko’s released, and several others). Musically, for most of his career, and particularly from the early ‘70’s on, I feel Frank pushed his work as much as he felt like at the time and came up with some wonderful results. And I certainly enjoyed that ride. I could pick any 5-year period from his output and point to something inspiring from each of those periods that I go back to with some regularlity. But, the big “however”: I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to tune out (with a few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I am really incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I’m concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school that thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every social barb in his lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. If that was his intention...I’d imagine he could have accomplished much the same thing in the space of one album. Its not the sort of thing I enjoy seeing someone make a career of. Then again, I pretty much can’t stand Jim Carrey either, but evidently a lot of people like him. Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 13 Aug 1998 17:17:16 -0700 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of ScottRussell > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 4:05 PM > I'd like to see this posting. Considering the rather alarmed > thread that greeted this release on this list I'd like to know what the > beef is? Here ya go: unedited, copied right out of alt.noise. As mentioned earlier, disclaimers about the truth of the identity of the poster apply: On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 00:05:46 -0700, in alt.noise Trey wrote: >Please heed the warnings on this group about the worthless shlock CD >entitled "Weird Little Boy" and DON'T BUY IT! > >I know: I played on the piece of shit. I wish I had'nt. >It was recorded years ago, and what started off as an OK idea (Zorn, >Cochrane and myself writing short pieces for each other to be composed, >recorded and mixed in one day) degenerated into a "scene" jerkoff/hardee >har har/are'nt we clever/party as it somehow magically stareted to >incorporate more and more 'big name' people as the day went on. >The result is totally useless and pathetic. > >I take responsibility for being lame enough to be involved in this kind >of thing ("never again", as they say), but I am shocked at the LOW LINE >drawn in the Zorn quality control department. And to marry this lump of >aural dogshit to such great packaging is an inexcusable offense, I >think. > >Yeah, some giddy newcomers to "experimental" music might find layers of >subversive irony within it, what with all the 'big names' engaging in >pure musical vacuity along with the additional "absurdity" of it being >retailed at such a high price. Besides, "There HAS to be something to >it", otherwise we're not as smart as we thought we were for BUYING it. >Hmm... I think most of us have had enough of that kind of thing. > >Unless wasting thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy >post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs. > > >-t - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:13:27 +0100 I think these comments bring up some interesting points. Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the participants is unhappy with it? If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there 'something to it'? > >Yeah, some giddy newcomers to "experimental" music > I am neither giddy nor a newcomer to experimental music and, like I said before, it isn't the best example of this kind of thing... but neither is it the worst. > might find layers of > >subversive irony within it, > I thought there were some interesting textures and soundscapes going on. Many of which have resemblances to pieces on other Zorn albums, am I to infer I might be getting 'ripped off' there too? > Besides, "There HAS to be something to > >it", otherwise we're not as smart as we thought we were for BUYING > it. > >Hmm... I think most of us have had enough of that kind of thing. > As it happens I got it by accident and I was expecting it to be bad. I buy a great deal of experimental music and generally have no problem discarding stuff I don't connect with. Of course not being there when it was done, it's impossible to tell much about the atmosphere of the event nor the motives of those involved but since this album doesn't sound (to me at least) as superficial and cynical as Spruance suggests, I wonder how to bridge the gap between the expectation of the performer and the actuality of the performance? Scott - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Michel Godard Date: 13 Aug 1998 21:11:02 -0400 Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work? I know he's appeared on some of those jazz/Arabic melds on Enja, the ones in the leatherette sleeves, but I haven't gotten around to checking them out yet (the current-Summer-issue of Avant has an intriguing review of one of them). Thanks, Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT <> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on Chronoscope, which is also a guitar trio record. Both of these should be available through Forced Exposure (www.fe.org) or North Country (www.cadencebuilding.com). Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Handley" Subject: re: weird little boy Date: 13 Aug 1998 21:30:12 PDT Not that any of this matters at ALL, but I learned about Iancu Dumitrescu on the Secret Chiefs Trio's Web of Mimicry website. Insofar as perpetual outrage can be stylistic, the anti-Zorn, anti- Downtown invective on that site sure sounded like the alt.noise post. Is it a "Chief"? Is it Trey Spruance? Hmmm... I don't care. But the breathless kudos to Dumitrescu are fun to read and I guess they guided me toward him. --scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Weil Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST) This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far as Lou Ciccotelli playing. 1. Slab! 2. God 3. Ice 4. Laika 5. Gary Smith 6. Mass Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. 5 and 6 can be acquired through Forced Exposure, as stated earlier. Any advice on how to get the Ethiopiques vol 1-4 on Buda Musique? thanks jw - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 13 Aug 1998 22:17:06 -0700 >This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far >as Lou Ciccotelli playing. >1. Slab! >2. God >3. Ice >4. Laika >5. Gary Smith >6. Mass Hmm...I'm a HUGE fan of God, Ice, and Laika and have most everything they've each released (mostly because of the Justin Broadrick connection) but I've never even heard of Slab!, Gary Smith or Mass...so what do these sound like? thanks mike mhowes@best.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:49:15 +0200 (MEST) > Did any of you happen to spot the posting on alt.noise by someone named > "Trey" about a week ago? Basically "Trey" (if it really is Trey Spruance) > *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- he concludes, "Unless wasting > thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy > post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs." (The vitriol goes on and on.) > Can anyone confirm or deny if it was indeed him? Or was I trolled? > yes thats him...in a private email he warned me to buy it since he called it complete shit and a goddamn waste of money BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: cobra review Date: 14 Aug 1998 08:55:18 -0400 A review of Cobra, seen at Tonic by a NYC friend: I went to see Zorn's Cobra last night...it was fascinating. A dozen musicians sat in a semi-circle around John, who stood before a table covered with 20 mysteriously coded flashcards. They would all gesture excitedly with strange handsignals to each other, playing in response to the cards, the noise operating on some loosely controlled chaos theorum. (is that possible?) The silliness escalated, as headbands were incorporated into the code; everyone was laughing and snorting through their instruments, frantically putting on their headgear in time, while making music that will never be heard again. Some people I haven't seen before: David Shea, Vernon Reid, others that escape my memory. A man with three didgeridoos. It was good fun. Afterward as I was standing amongst a crowd outside having a cigarette, someone starting hurling eggs at us from some unseen height; lethal yolked missiles crashed on the sidewalk at great speeds, sounding quite unlike eggs. Luckily no one was hit (again, chaos theorum). Those chickens were definately never meant to survive. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re: Two cents on Zappa Date: 14 Aug 1998 09:47:29 -0500 > I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to tune out (with a >few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I am really >incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I'm >concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school >that thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every >social barb in his lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. >If that was his intention... Dale, Good points, though again I'd differentiate, at least a bit, between pre and post-1971. For example, the lyrics (and, in fact, the whole concept) of 'We're Only In It For the Money' are some of the most prescient (and funny) I've ever heard on a rock album, especially considering the time and milieu in which it was recorded. I only became aware of Zappa about two years after this release, but I can imagine the effect this had on the hippie community, who doubtless thought this freak was one of their own. I daresay it helped foster my own eventual disgust at the whole notion of fashion with lines that hit very close to home at the time like, "Oh, my hair's getting good in the back." Not that they quite qualify as lyrics, but two other eye openers were 1) Jimmy Carl Black's dead honest whining about not getting paid on 'Uncle Meat' and 2) the single most honest and trenchant comment I've ever heard from a "rock star": Zappa's "uniform" remark on BWS. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 07:56:23 -0700 On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > > Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power > trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on ^^^^^^^^^^ Gary Smith on a power trio? Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:06:38 EDT < > Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power > trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on ^^^^^^^^^^ Gary Smith on a power trio? Patrice.>> from the Forced Exposure web site: Gary Smith-Stereo (Chronoscope)-Studio trio album led by this UK improvising guitarist. A much expanded sound compared to his previous albums on Impetus (solo) and Ecstatic Peace! (duo with John Stevens); this is loud, aggressive instrumental trio action, at times in an almost Caspar Brotzmann-like mold, with Dave Sturt (bass) & Lou Ciccotelli (drums). and Gary Smith-Mass (Paratactile)-Debut release by this new UK power trio, led by guitarist Gary Smith (previous releases on Ecstatic Peace, Chronoscope & Impetus. "...the earthquaking, sky-kissing beauty of Mass music, a place where the dissonant country blues of Son House and Charlie Patton meet the rattled black space of early electronic composition and the scorched earth improvisations of Fushitsusha and Tony Williams' Lifetime." David Keenan/The Wire. Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charles Gillett" Subject: re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 10:30:06 +0000 On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:30:12 PDT, "Scott Handley" wrote: > Not that any of this matters at ALL, but I learned about Iancu > Dumitrescu on the Secret Chiefs Trio's Web of Mimicry website. > Insofar as perpetual outrage can be stylistic, the anti-Zorn, anti- > Downtown invective on that site sure sounded like the alt.noise post. > Is it a "Chief"? Is it Trey Spruance? Hmmm... DejaNews brings up five posts by "mimicry@*," three of which are from mimicry@earthlink.net and the balance from mimicry@humboldt1.com (the address given at Spruance's webpage). He seems bitter about Zorn, and I quote: (from http://www.humboldt1.com/~mimicry, verbatim, wherein he reviews "Angelus Novus") ----------- The other pieces on the CD are also a noticeable cut above quality-wise from what we have all come to expect from this Tycoon of the Avant- Garde. It's reassuring that amid the and very understandable complaints of Zorn's "Overly Influential" presence in modern music, he has managed to prove (to me at least) with this CD that he is well deserving of some high praise. Besides, at this point I doubt that very many Zornophile's, considering their average mentality, would note the difference in quality between this CD and, say, Weird Little Boy. So hey, who said Zorn couldn't spring a GREAT album on his "buy everything" contingent now and then? ----------- He goes on to say "Perhaps the "niche" we are attempting to reach is the small but ever-growing number of people who have grown disillusioned with the whole Zorn/Downtown scene for it's lack of worthwhile recordings." Obviously he has mixed feelings. I am finding more anti-"downtown" talk out there nowadays (it seems like Walter Horn reviews "downtown" CDs for Cadence just so he can insult them), but I'm not sure if it's mostly from conservative jazz fans or disillusioned former-"downtown" fans. I think his comments regarding the poor quality of "WLB" are funny, considering I just finished waiting for the newest Secret Chiefs 3 album to end--maybe Zorn and those nasty "downtown" people aren't the problem with "WLB." If overdubbed guitars (and guitar-related instruments) cavorting aimlessly with drums in a field of juvenile tape manipulations while pretending to be Sun City Girls sounds appealing, "Hurqalya" by Secret Chiefs 3 might be for you. -- Charles - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: Zappa lyrics Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) When I first heard Zappa in 1966 and saw him in 1967 I figured at last=20 here was someone who was able to bring together all the strands of=20 instrumental virtuosity of jazz, the power of rock and social commentary=20 and serve it up in a package everyone would "get". I saw the early versions of the Mothers and felt things still worked up to= =20 and including "Hot Rats". After that live and on disc Zappa turned into a= =20 parody of himself lyrically, relying on the sort of pee pee jokes that=20 would amuse the teenage crowd. However I still think that "Freak Out", "Absolutely Free" and "We're Only= =20 In It For the Money" had memorable, satiric and, dare I say, important=20 lyrics for the time. You have to remember that FZ was mocking the mass=20 passivity of hippies and others *before* most people even knew who=20 hippies were. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > =94: I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to > tune out (with a few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I a= m > really incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I= =92m > concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school tha= t > thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every social barb i= n his > lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. If that was his > intention...I=92d imagine he could have accomplished much the same thing = in the > space of one album.=20 >=20 >=20 > - >=20 >=20 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jtalbot@massart.edu Subject: zorn related films Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:28:44 -0500 hi. has anyone either seen any of these films or have a copy of any of these films. thanks jason "RISING TONE CROSS"- jazz film by Ebba Jahn 119 mins. English & German w/ subtitles "OSAKA BONDAGE"- Henry Hills Music by Naked City available through Film Makers Coop. "MONEY"- Henry Hills 16mm film available on VHS tape "STEP ACROSS THE BORDER"- Nicolas Humber & Werner Penzel "ART OF MEMORY"- Johanna Heer. German Director "LE 2EME JOUR"- Robert Cahn. 9mins made for zorn's "hommage a godard" music "THE ELEGANT SPANKING"- Maria Beatty & Rosemary Delain music by john zorn "CYNICAL HYSTERIE HOUR"-japanese cartoons music by john zorn - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brad Elsie" Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 10:40:58 PDT >From owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Thu Aug 13 22:02:10 1998 >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0z7BvV-00005d-00; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:57:21 -0600 >Received: from (pasture.ecn.purdue.edu) [128.46.199.85] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0z7BvT-00005Q-00; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:57:19 -0600 >Received: (from weilj@localhost) > by pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8moyman) id XAA17601; > Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST) >Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST) >From: Joe Weil >Message-Id: <199808140457.XAA17601@pasture.ecn.purdue.edu> >To: felonious_punk@hotmail.com, zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli >Sender: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk > >This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far >as Lou Ciccotelli playing. >1. Slab! >2. God >3. Ice >4. Laika >5. Gary Smith >6. Mass > >Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under >the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except >maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. 5 and 6 can be acquired >through Forced Exposure, as stated earlier. > Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. John Jobaggy was the percussionist in Ice, performing with Kevin Martin, Justin Broadrick, Dave Cochrane (Sweet Tooth, Head Of David)and Alex Buess (16/17). "Under The Skin" is on Pathological and "Quarantine" is on Carcrashh. Kevin, Justin and Dave are members of God. CDs are on Big Cat and Virgin. Zorn appears on "Possession" on 3 tracks. God's "Appeal To Human Greed" remix CD is great. It features remixes by Bill Laswell and Kevin Shields of My Bloody Valentine. >Any advice on how to get the Ethiopiques vol 1-4 on Buda Musique? >thanks >jw > > >- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: Two cents on Zappa Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:37:06 -0400 >>>>> "Brian" == brian olewnick writes: Brian> Good points, though again I'd differentiate, at least Brian> a bit, between pre and post-1971. In addition to 'only money', I also remember fondly the lyrics to Trouble Every Day from Freak Out (FZ's comments on the Watts Riots) and the satire on Absolutely Free. My wife (originally from the boot hill of Missouri -- still a conservative religious backwater in the 1960s) and I were reminiscing a while back about what we listened to as early teens. Her jaw dropped at Absolutely Free and made the comment that they would have burned that record in Missouri. While these are the same subjects and potty humor that FZ continued to inject, the later lyrics are simply crude and don't contain the satire that characterized the first three Mothers albums. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:25:22 -0700 At 7:56 AM 8/14/98, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: >On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: >> >> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power >> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on > ^^^^^^^^^^ > >Gary Smith on a power trio? > > Patrice. There was a cut by Mass on a Wire magazine compilation from a few months ago. The liner notes built it up to sound like the best free-improv rock power trio ever, but the track just didn't do it for me. Certainly doesn't touch Arcana's last Wave, or even the Derek and the Ruins CD, IMHO. Have not heard anything else by Gary Smith, though. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Felix" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +0200 > I think these comments bring up some interesting points. > > Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother >inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the >participants is unhappy with it? > > If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there >'something to it'? I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was varied. First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started ditching the album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The album is good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think that part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think that the album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when listening to the music to know what the music is about. It had some disappointments - I was expecting something completely different from that set of musicians, and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr. Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their disappointment towards what they expected. Anyway, you've seen how Mr. Bungle have changed from the self-titled to Disco Volante, perhaps their next album will be a disappointment also, while Spruance might think of it as their master-piece. You can never know. Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced to do the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could have said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the album, and THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one should buy it. I wonder it Trey is one of those anti-Zorn-ists working infiltrated... Felix jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:27:38 -0700 On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +0200 "Felix" wrote: > > > I think these comments bring up some interesting points. > > > > Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother > >inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the > >participants is unhappy with it? > > > > If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there > >'something to it'? I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has with the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music. I assume that something went wrong between him and Zorn (or between him and Patton, since John and Mike are good pals). The bitterness of his mail reminds me of a couple which splits. We are always hearing the trouble from the victim's side :-). But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some improv/noise is great or crap? For some people (the "dogmatic") it is good by definition (or the question about "good" and "bad" is irrelevant). And the vast majority does not even care of the genre (and they would not believe, anyway, that you can even make music which is 100% improvised or noise :-). The result? Zillions of records that are "great" and very few that ten years after you really remember or put on your turntable... Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100 > I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was > varied. > First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started > ditching the > album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The > album is > good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think > that > part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think > that the > album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when > listening > to the music to know what the music is about. > How much is the music related to the text? It would seem that the music is quite old, was the text for it conceived at the same time? > It had some disappointments - > I was expecting something completely different from that set of > musicians, > and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr. > Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their > disappointment towards what they expected. > I guess if you were expecting a Mr Bungle/Naked City type rave up you'd be disappointed but to people used to hearing the likes of Fred Frith, Derek Bailey, Henry Kaiser, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, Nurse With Wound etc it isn't at all weird. > Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced > to do > the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could > have > said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the > album, and > I rather got the impression Zorn released it but I may be wrong. > THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one > should > buy it. > Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels this way about WLB. Scott > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:41:07 -0700 On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100 ScottRussell wrote: > > Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to > be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of > 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but > are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you have anything in mind when writing that? That's exactly what I felt with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack Smith. My most embarrasssing record buy in ages. > this way about WLB. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:50:01 +0100 Idefinitely agree with Patrice here. > I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has > with > the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music. > > But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some > improv/noise > is great or crap? > I think this is true of any kind of abstract art. It doesn't rely on established benchmarks so we only have gut feelings and intuition to discern that what we're hearing or seeing is of some value and not just some kind of hoax. Even so, a hoax could be art too... Scott > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:57:28 +0100 > On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100 ScottRussell wrote: > > > > Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it > to > > be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues > of > > 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces > but > > are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance > feels > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Do you have anything in mind when writing that? > I didn't have a specific recording in mind though I have recently acquired Smegma meets Wild Man Fischer and have a suspicion that I'm just listening to drivel and not great outsider art that has deep things to say about our fractured psyches... Looking at sites such as Forced Exposure one can see this trend growing; see recordings by Sun City Girls, lost electronic works etc etc I'm not criticisng either of these outfits but one can see the danger in overdoing the obscurity value of these things. > That's exactly what I felt > with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack > Smith. > My most embarrasssing record buy in ages. > Can you give me some idea what this is like? I've seen it about but haven't had the nerve to get it. I just got a copy of Smith's collected writings, Meet Me at the Bottom of the Pool. Scott - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:56:33 -0700 On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:50:01 +0100 ScottRussell wrote: > > Idefinitely agree with Patrice here. > > > I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has > > with > > the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music. > > > > But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some > > improv/noise > > is great or crap? > > > I think this is true of any kind of abstract art. It doesn't > rely on established benchmarks so we only have gut feelings and > intuition to discern that what we're hearing or seeing is of some value > and not just some kind of hoax. Except that the trend these days among inovative music fans is to rank everything from "good" to "outstanding". Does it really means that every record out is really so good or simply that by pushing the abstraction so far, we are left with utter confusion where the reputation of the artist (cult) and the literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation) make the main difference between an OK and a good product? Patrice (who is amazed at how indulgent listeners of "innovative" music have became ;-). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 22:33:16 +0100 > Except that the trend these days among inovative music fans is to rank > > everything from "good" to "outstanding". > Very true. > Does it really means that every > record out is really so good or simply that by pushing the abstraction > so > far, we are left with utter confusion where the reputation of the > artist > (cult) and the literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation) > make > the main difference between an OK and a good product? > Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguish between a genuine example of pioneering experimental music and the merely routine. One could also argue about the vailidity of qualitative expressions like 'good' and 'outstanding'. I think we are in the middle of a fad and it's going to take a while until the dust settles, so we can actually see what has value. Don't get me wrong, I think now is absolutely the best time to be a music lover, ever! There is so much available and so much great stuff that wasn't available even a few years ago. But along with this comes the less attractive things like the persuasion by intimidation Patrice mentions plus the wretchedness of fashion (John Fahey can apparently do no wrong now even though he has been turning out astonishing work for 30 years) and let's not forget the critics who use certain artists for their own agendas. Scott - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 14:38:26 -0700 On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:57:28 +0100 ScottRussell wrote: > > > That's exactly what I felt > > with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack > > Smith. > > My most embarrasssing record buy in ages. > > > Can you give me some idea what this is like? I've seen it about but > haven't had the nerve to get it. I just got a copy of Smith's collected > writings, Meet Me at the Bottom of the Pool. I am only judging from a music point of view (hey! the record is advertized as featuring John Cale, Tony Conrad, etc). A sloppy reading of texts with some sounds in the background. The sound is abominable, but this has never prevented me from appreciating a record... What is even worse, for me, is that I find the voice of Jack Smith unbearable... Which means that I can't even appreciate the voice as an instrument (give me Bryon Gysin everyday!!!). There is still a possibility that the texts are outstanding, and they would have to be really exceptional to compensate for the mediocrity (to say the least) of the music and interpretation. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:48:01 -0400 >>>>> "Patrice" == Patrice L Roussel writes: Patrice> Except that the trend these days among innovative music Patrice> fans is to rank everything from "good" to Patrice> "outstanding". Does it really means that every record out Patrice> is really so good or simply that by pushing the Patrice> abstraction so far, we are left with utter confusion Patrice> where the reputation of the artist (cult) and the Patrice> literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation) Patrice> make the main difference between an OK and a good Patrice> product? At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before. We acquire compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines, keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already got. If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System). IMHO, JZ is no longer an artist whose every release breaks new ground. He's got too much stuff in the vaults and is so prolific that I don't even try to keep up with him anymore. There's too many creative musicians for me to become a completist on JZ. Part of the frustration I expressed this past week over Filmworks III is that these sketches have a much shorter shelf life than his major works (leave aside for the moment what those might be). And really, he's allowed to make a lousy record once in a while. Maybe WLB was fun to make, maybe in combination with the artwork it's more than the sum of its parts. Maybe it's just a lousy record. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Hewins Subject: Re: New MMW Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:51:13 -0500 Make that DJ Logic instad of DJ Olive... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 14:51:42 -0700 (PDT) On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Brad Elsie wrote: > Kevin, Justin and Dave are members of God. CDs are on Big Cat and > Virgin. don't forget the releases on Situation Two ("Breach Birth"), Permis de Construire ("Loco") and Sentrax ("Consumed"). as far as i know, Justin Broadrick was not a central member of GOD up until release of "Anatomy of Addiction". rather, it's a project between Kevin Martin, Dave Cochrane, Lou Ciccotelli and Tim Hodgkinson. you'll notice Broadrick isn't even present for "Breach Birth", "Loco" or "Consumed" but he may have produced "Breach Birth". for more information, check out Crumbling Flesh www.albany.edu/~te0011/godflesh.html Avalanche www.avalanche.demon.co.uk (Justin Broadrick's official website) hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Weil Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:13:38 -0500 (EST) I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as Breached Birth. Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in Head of David together? jw - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason J. Tar" Subject: Ice/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 14 Aug 1998 22:14:24 -0400 At 02:53 PM 8/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:40:58 PDT >From: "Brad Elsie" >Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli >Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. He is on the new Ice album _Bad Blood_, along with Kevin Martin, Justin Broadrick, Dave Cochrane, Scott Harding and guests (including DJ Vadim, Sensational, A-Cyde, Sebestian Laws, Toastie Taylor, Blixa Bargeld, El-P, and Priest). [If most of those guest names are unawares to you, they are rappers from the likes of New Kingdom, Company Flow, Anti-Pop Collective, Jungle Brothers, and New Flesh 4 Old.] --- Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar W. W. J. D? (What would Jason Do?) http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason ICQ@13792120 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Claudio Koremblit" Subject: Experimenta return to the war Date: 14 Aug 1998 23:48:19 -0300 Tomorrow saturday 15 will be the opening of Experimenta 98 in Buenos Aires, Argentina, with Butch Morris and Experimenta=20 Ensemble making the Conduction # 104. After many troubles with the City of Buenos Aires that=20 tried to cancell the series in may for problems with budget, Experimenta got the conditions for make possible the second year of monthly performances with artists from all over the world.=20 Here the programation: Programaci=F3n Experimenta 98,=20 Teatros Sarmiento (agosto) y Regio (septiembre a diciembre): 15 de agosto: BUTCH MORRIS (USA) y Ensamble Experimenta CASUAL (Hernan Vives, Lucio Capece y Zelmar Sarin) (Argentina) /=20 Adriana de los Santos (Argentina) 12 de Septiembre: LEE RANALDO & WILLIAM HOOKER (USA) y la cineasta LEAH SINGER / Capricornio (Bl=E9fari-Aldana) (Argentina) /=20 Wenchi Lazo/ Gregorio Kazaroff (Argentina) 16 y 17 de Octubre:=20 BOB OSTERTAG /=20 EUGENE CHADBOURNE /=20 MARK DRESSER (USA) /=20 Maia Monaco & Barbara Togander (Argentina) PERCEUM (Uruguay)/=20 Tato Taborda (Brasil) /=20 Joaquin Orellana (Guatemala)/=20 FRICS (Argentina) 12 y 13 de Diciembre: JOHN ZORN y Masada (USA)/=20 GUY KLUCEVSEK (USA) /=20 MARCELO PERALTA (Argentina) Any information: experimenta@datamarkets.com.ar www.datamarkets.com.ar/experimenta - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jkan@javanet.com Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 15 Aug 1998 05:12:28 -0400 > At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being > cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before. We acquire > compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines, > keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already > got. If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves > to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and > inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System). Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to "keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what we've already got"? Jim - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 15 Aug 1998 07:34:55 -0400 >>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far >>as Lou Ciccotelli playing. >>1. Slab! >>2. God >>3. Ice >>4. Laika >>5. Gary Smith >>6. Mass >>Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under >>the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except >>maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. If you mean full-length when you say "last one" ... he is on that, "Sounds Of The Satellites". "Brad Elsie" replied: >Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. John Jobaggy >was the percussionist in Ice, performing with Kevin Martin, Justin >Broadrick, Dave Cochrane (Sweet Tooth, Head Of David)and Alex Buess >(16/17). "Under The Skin" is on Pathological and "Quarantine" is on >Carcrashh. I was just about to say this ... a little late I guess. :) There is also the new Ice, "Bad Blood", and the one (so far) promo remix 12", both on Morpheus. You can replace Ice w/ Eardrum in the above list. This may even be Lou's own project, but I'm not sure. I believe they have 2 12"s out (perhaps other things?), but I don't own them. One is called "First Mutations" and is on Soul Static Sound (may be o/p), and the other has "Circular" (?) in the title (not sure on the label). -Patrick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Lankin Subject: Re: seeking info for Myra Melford discography Date: 15 Aug 1998 15:13:34 -0400 Thanks to those who've responded with information about my Myra Melford discography. Updated version 1.4.5 is now posted at http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html. Alan. > > I've recently compiled a discography on jazz pianist Myra Melford and am > looking for any items I've missed. > > I'm especially interested in details of her Nisus tapes. > > She performed on Zorn's "Cobra Live." > > See http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html. > -- Alan Lankin lankina@worldnet.att.net http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 15 Aug 1998 14:05:05 -0700 At 05:13 PM 8/14/98 -0500, Joe Weil wrote: >I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as >Breached Birth. >Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in >Head of David together? Justin appears on "Dustbowl", "The Saveana Mixes", and "White Elephant/The Peal Sessions". I don't know which Head of David records Martin appears on.. mike mhowes@best.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Schuth" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 15 Aug 1998 20:56:50 PDT >Fr > >I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was varied. >First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started ditching the >album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The album is >good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think that >part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think that the >album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when listening >to the music to know what the music is about. It had some disappointments - >I was expecting something completely different from that set of musicians, >and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr. >Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their >disappointment towards what they expected. > >Anyway, you've seen how Mr. Bungle have changed from the self-titled to >Disco Volante, perhaps their next album will be a disappointment also, while >Spruance might think of it as their master-piece. You can never know. >Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced to do >the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could have >said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the album, and >THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one should >buy it. I wonder it Trey is one of those anti-Zorn-ists working >infiltrated... > >Felix >jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt > > >These are some good points Felix. The one thing that upsets me, is that Trey insists for us that we are not interested in hearing this album. For him it might not be a big deal to have a noisy (and perhaps worthless) jam session with the likes of Mike Patton, John Zorn, and William Winant, but personally I'll never come close to hearing anything like this. These are some of my favorite musicians, and even if its a very spontanious album, and yes, perhaps even a joke, I don't regret purchasing this one. > >- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: Massacre Date: 15 Aug 1998 21:14:22 PDT Hello all, I was hoping that someone on the list could either confirm or deny this one : Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album. This would be great news - if it's true. Anyone know? DB Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: RE: weird little boy Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:29:33 +0200 (MEST) > I rather got the impression Zorn released it but I may be wrong. thats what it was like > Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to > be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of > 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but > are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels > this way about WLB. thats exactly what he thinks.....i'll try to find his mail he send to me and will forward it to the list as soon as i find it BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: trey's mail Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:42:36 +0200 (MEST) this was sent to me from trey spruance in february: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > what is that WEIRD LITTLE BOY project like that > everybody is talking about..can it be compared to anything else i could > know?? No. Quite frankly it SUCKS! It started out as a good idea and then just degenerated into a stupid party of moronic done-before's. 1 or 2 OK moments, but THATS IT!! Buy it if you want to laugh at highbrow incompetence!!!! I hate it... Ok, bye bye Trey BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:44:42 +0200 (MEST) one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Let's get one thing straight - I HATE FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who is just burnt on it! =t= BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: one more Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:46:57 +0200 (MEST) On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, trey wrote: > > you BUY IT, listen to it, and tell me if that's what I'm thinking! Free > Improv as a concept obviously does NOT suck, and this album is'nt really > just another bad free improv record. If it were, I'd just say so and > leave it at that. BUT, it's not really all just improv, AND it sucks the > green donkey dicks - so theres really no conveinient recourse to the > "bad improv" arguement. It's just pure, pretentious shit with no brains, > thought, feeling or value. At least when improv is like that there's > always the excuse of "searching for a new medium", and I accept that. > But no such luck here. =t= BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: TS on free improv Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:53:11 +0200 (MEST) this one from february 1998 might bring some light to all of it: Let's get one thing straight - I HATE FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who is just burnt on it! =t= _______________________________________________________________________ BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 16 Aug 1998 13:07:01 +0200 (MEST) > At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being > cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before. We acquire > compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines, > keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already > got. If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves > to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and > inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System). right....i am surprised that there are more people than me on this list havin this opionion...i didnt care about all the zorn-releases since angelus novus.....hmmmmm. > IMHO, JZ is no longer an artist whose every release breaks new ground. > He's got too much stuff in the vaults and is so prolific that I don't > even try to keep up with him anymore. There's too many creative > musicians for me to become a completist on JZ. true again...there are so many good records in the world that none of us will ever have the chance to hear all of them...so why the hell buy all records that zorn did anything for? > And really, he's allowed to make a lousy record once in a while. > Maybe WLB was fun to make, maybe in combination with the artwork it's > more than the sum of its parts. Maybe it's just a lousy record. i bought it some weeks ago and to be honest i listened to the first ten minutes and since then it hasnt reentered my player...i cant say that it isnt good after that but it doesnt seem interesting enough to play it again BJOERN - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:21:08 -0400 "Brad Elsie" wrote: >>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. "Jason J. Tar" responded: >He is on the new Ice album _Bad Blood_ ... Well then, I guess we should just _add_ Eardrum to the list, and _leave_ Ice in there. :) >>1. Slab! >>2. God >>3. Ice >>4. Laika >>5. Gary Smith >>6. Mass 7. Eardrum -Patrick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Head Of David Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:20:51 -0400 At 05:13 PM 8/14/98 -0500, Joe Weil wrote: >>I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as >>Breached Birth. >>Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in >>Head of David together? Michael Howes replied: >Justin appears on "Dustbowl", "The Saveana Mixes", and "White Elephant/ >The Peal Sessions". I don't know which Head of David records Martin >appears on.. I'm quite positive that Martin was never in, or appeared as a guest in HoD. -Patrick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Attention NYC Shoppers Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:48:03 -0400 Two things that might be of interest to NYC z-listers: 1) re: the Brotzmann Octet/Tentet. Tower (East 4th) has it for $50--Other Music, across the street has it for $30. (The copies, BTW, are numbered--I got 168, Tower had some in the 700's; does anyone know how many were pressed?) 2) Other Music also has, in its glass-case section, a copy of "The John Zorn Radio Hour"....for $50. I demurred and expect to 'til I hit a large football pool or something, but could anyone who owns this provide a review? Also, if anyone's gotten any of the four new Keiji Haino discs of PSF, I'd be curious to hear about them. Picked up a few items I haven't listened to yet including Dave Douglas' 'Charm of a Night Sky', Kevin Drumm's self-titled release and John Wall's 'Fractuur'. Will let you know. The first disc of the Brotz set had several thrilling moments. Guy Klucevsek at Tonic last night: Wonderful, heart-felt, deep melodies from one of the world's finest musicians. I retain my special affinity for artists stretching boundaries who, to all appearences, look like they should be working in an accounting department, who could care less if other people think they're hip or not. Fashion be damned. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Risser Subject: Trey Spruance Date: 16 Aug 1998 11:20:08 -0400 I think it's funny he renounces WLB so much, when I thought a number of moments on SC3's first and a few on the second sound exactly like what he's renouncing. LIttle boys with their four-track toys, instead of little boys with their free-improv toys, I suppose. But still, the first album is rife with examples of dorkiness that I can't figure how ever made it to record. Glass houses and all. :) Peter === Peter Risser risser@goodnews.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 16 Aug 1998 14:13:54 -0400 At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, jkan@javanet.com wrote: >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what >we've already got"? Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely controlled boundaries. If the population really had a collective impulse to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: your mail Date: 16 Aug 1998 16:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Maybe then he and the other "free form" diletantes, such as Thurston Moore should leave the music to those who know it and *want* to play it -- the names Coleman, Taylor, E. Parker, W. Parker, Lowe, Guy, Ware, Gayle, Bailey, Oxley, Brotzmann come immediately to mind. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, BJOERN wrote: > one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800 > > Let's get one thing straight - I HATE > FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am > not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar > with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of > course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who > is just burnt on it! > > =t= > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > BJOERN > www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt > > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Weil Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli Date: 16 Aug 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST) Yeah, I was right and wrong on the Ice. The latest Ice was reviewed in the Wire and I read his name and associated it with the earlier releases which he does not play on. Sorry for the inaccuracy. BTW, has anyone seen the latest Ice, Bad Blood, in the stores? CDEurope has it for 36US$, too much. As far as Slab!. It has been awhile since I have heard their stuff. I would say that you were not missing anything special if you did not listen to them. I have one 12" (Sanity Allergy) and a CD comp. (Ship of Fools) which has several songs from each LP they put out. For the most part, I would describe Slab! as hard rock band with a funky edge. They don`t get as heavy as GOD but they do have their moments, _Swithchback Ride_. I have never read anything about them in any magazine except for musicians mentioning that they have some Slab! in their collection, next to Maddona. I think that there were several members of Slab! who migrated with Lou C. to God but as flimsy as my mind is with musical arcana I will sift through my collection before I write any names down. thanks jw - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:44:46 -0400 I'd be honestly interested in what Spruance has tired of about Free Improv. Is it the act of performance without an explicit score, or the cliches that frequently happen in performances, or the minimal hype surrounding it? I wonder what parameters would need to be fulfilled in a free improvisation for Spruance to find it worthwhile. (Might we invite him to this list to discuss it openly, since people are quoting him and he has net.access?) BJOERN wrote: > > one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800 > > Let's get one thing straight - I HATE > FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am > not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar > with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of > course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who > is just burnt on it! -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:58:48 -0400 ScottRussell wrote: > Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguish > between a genuine example of pioneering experimental music and the > merely routine. One could also argue about the vailidity of qualitative > expressions like 'good' and 'outstanding'. What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording? Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others, but it's hard to determine what those factors are. There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then) I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke. *Everyone* who said anything admitted to strongly disliking what they had just endured, yet no one wanted to be the first to admit not liking this Advanced Serious piece of High Art. (BTW, this isn't an off-the-cuff opinion: I have the boxed set and Slapping Pythagorus, have read a lot about his work, and got to speak to him for a while before the concert. He certainly has an interesting story to tell about his adventures some 30 years ago, but his recordings and performances contradict the musical points he seems to want to be making in his music.) Still, there is some valid and possibly wonderful music to be made from aspect of what he did. A lot of people have taken off from there and run in good directions. Hm... I didn't intend for this to turn into a rant... -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jkan@javanet.com Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 02:00:53 -0400 > At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, jkan@javanet.com wrote: > >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to > >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] > like what > >we've already got"? > > Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was > at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that > fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely > controlled boundaries. Hmm... here you seem to equate fashion with mainstream culture, while in your original post you argued that only buying John Zorn records would make one a slave to fashion. What kind of fashion are we talking about? > If the population really had a collective impulse > to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is. I think it's equally valid to see it the other way around: when we want to seek out something new (and I didn't mean to suggest that the "masses" as a whole rise up to embrace the new David Bowie record), the boundaries of what most of us are able to find -- as well as the criteria by which we judge what we find -- are defined by commercial radio. I just don't see the big difference between listening to commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist film music of Kazakhstan.... Jim - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 08:37:43 -0700 On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:13:54 -0400 "Caleb T. Deupree" wrote: > > At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, jkan@javanet.com wrote: > >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to > >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what > >we've already got"? > > Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was > at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that > fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely > controlled boundaries. If the population really had a collective impulse > to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is. There is a simpler explanation to that: people at large might have more important things to do in their life than looking for the last limited edition of Merzbow. Which means that yes, the mainstream media are mainstream because they have to hit an audience for which experimental music is not at the top of their interest. Is it really so strange? Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Massacre Date: 17 Aug 1998 09:11:01 -0700 On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:14:22 PDT "Silent Watcher" wrote: > > Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into > Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred > Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album. This would be great news - if > it's true. Anyone know? It is a little bit strange because the upcoming Massacre record is with Charles Hayward, not Ted Epstein. Does it mean that the band is really back and will tour? Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Burton Subject: tony conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:21:09 -0400 (EDT) On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote: > There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I > recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an > excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who > hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite > niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then) > I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an > audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how > his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke. certainly a valid opinion as it was an extremely tautological experience, but i saw the same show @ the black cat and i was mesmerized by the drone. the whole performance was conrad on violin and a woman named alex on cello scraping out just intonation at volume 11, backlit behind a scrim. i liked the fact that this music challenged people. i liked the fact that people were leaving early. i wasn't hoping for a passive experience. the volume of the music made it physically taxing, yet i wouldn't have missed a second. once i acclimated myself to the extrememly narrow tonal range i heard a great deal of variation in the movements. they have the pure sound. this of course has nothing to do with john zorn... b - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Audino Subject: Upcoming Tzadiks Date: 17 Aug 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (CDT) After skipping a month for the first time in recent memory, Tzadik makes up for lost time on September 15th (in the US) with the following releases : Naftule's Dream - Smash/Clap Great Jewish Music : Marc Bolan John Zorn - Aporias John Zorn - Bribe John Zorn - Ganryu Island Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat, Paul psaudino@interaccess.com GROOVE ---------- One Nation - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: tony conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 11:41:18 -0500 (CDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Brent Burton wrote: > the whole performance was conrad on violin and a woman named alex on cello > scraping out just intonation at volume 11, backlit behind a scrim. One problem that I had with the performance (as with Conrad's recordings) was that the just intonation was hampered by the timbres used. The scratchiness of the sounds and chaotic articulations created a lot of off-tone noise, which made the intonations' effects much less effective. > i liked the fact that this music challenged people. i liked the fact > that people were leaving early. i wasn't hoping for a passive > experience. I don't see people leaving as necessarily a good thing. If someone had gotten on stage and played a Hanson record over and over, many people might have left too, yet that doesn't make listening to Hanson any more or less of an effective or valuable musical experience. > the volume of the music made it physically taxing, yet i wouldn't have > missed a second. once i acclimated myself to the extrememly narrow tonal > range i heard a great deal of variation in the movements. they have the > pure sound. What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be getting these differences other than by accident. There was one captivating moment, about 2/3 of the way in, when difference tones suddenly sprang out for about 30 seconds. But then they disappeared again in such a way that made me question whether they were intentionally produced. (Not that chance is necessarily a bad thing, but from what I understand from his writings and with talking to him before the show, it seems to be outside his aesthetic.) > this of course has nothing to do with john zorn... This of course is quite relevant to John Zorn. This entire discussion could as easily be taking place about performances of Leng T'che. Issues of the presentaation and reception of new music are at the core of much that we discuss here, with Zorn as a usul focus. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:04:58 -0400 >>>>> "Jim" == jkan writes: Jim> Hmm... here you seem to equate fashion with mainstream Jim> culture, while in your original post you argued that only Jim> buying John Zorn records would make one a slave to fashion. Jim> What kind of fashion are we talking about? Fashion means letting someone else dictate your choices, whether it's mainstream media, the so-called alternative press, or any other source. It's a fine line, perhaps, but an extreme example might be someone who bought every record JZ made because JZ is so cool, but doesn't listen to any of the surrounding context (free jazz, thrash, contemporary classical, musique concrete, etc.) because they are complete unknowns. >> If the population really had a collective impulse to seek out >> something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is. Jim> I think it's equally valid to see it the other way around: Jim> when we want to seek out something new (and I didn't mean to Jim> suggest that the "masses" as a whole rise up to embrace the Jim> new David Bowie record), the boundaries of what most of us Jim> are able to find -- as well as the criteria by which we judge Jim> what we find -- are defined by commercial radio. Maybe it's personal then. There was a long period in my life where I never listened to commercial radio and still don't recognize many 'hit' songs from that period. Jim> I just don't see the big difference between listening to Jim> commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record Jim> and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist Jim> film music of Kazakhstan.... I see a huge difference, between finding a printed list of interesting music, from a source we respect, where we can contemplate it at our leisure, and use of whatever music is available to keep us listening from one advertisement to the next. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:01:49 -0400 (EDT) That's the point I've been trying to make about the blind acceptance of *anyone's* work, even JZ's. Just because an artist decides something is a piece of high art and presents it as such, doesn't mean that we have to accept and/or like it. Saying that *every* piece of work created by so-and-so is a masterpiece or deserving of our foreshortened time does a disservice to both that person and others who create equally valid work. That said most of us like many things which are deemed horrible etc. by others. But if we don't hold to some critical standards we become as ignorent and guilty of fanaticism as any so-called pop music fan. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote: > > Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguis> > What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording? > Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches > organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the > instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back > to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others, > but it's hard to determine what those factors are. > > There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I > recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an > excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who > hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite > niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then) > I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an > audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how > his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke. > *Everyone* who said anything admitted to strongly disliking what they > had just endured, yet no one wanted to be the first to admit not liking > this Advanced Serious piece of High Art. > > (BTW, this isn't an off-the-cuff opinion: I have the boxed set and > Slapping Pythagorus, have read a lot about his work, and got to speak > to him for a while before the concert. He certainly has an interesting > story to tell about his adventures some 30 years ago, but his recordings > and performances contradict the musical points he seems to want to be > making in his music.) > > Still, there is some valid and possibly wonderful music to be made from > aspect of what he did. A lot of people have taken off from there and run > in good directions. > > Hm... I didn't intend for this to turn into a rant... > > -- > ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- > |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| > ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| > |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:02:14 -0400 (EDT) >There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I >recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an >excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. This seems, to me, a strange choice for ENC. I've seen him twice now, including the the same tour you just did (I assume), and both pieces have been nothing short of magnificent (ok, the last week's was 10minutes LONG of magnificent, but that's quibling). Admitedly, harsh volumous drone isn't a ubiquitous taste, but I know a number of people who LOVED his shows--including non-music lover friends I've dragged along who have since made efforts on their own to see him. Many more like and listen to _Slapping Pythagoros_ and _Four Violins_. I'm not sure how else to defend him, cause I don't want to make an appeal to innovation, authority ect, cause my love of his music has nothing to do with those things. Simply, his harmonics sound like the mornful end of the universe, and you can't get much more intense than that. _Four Violins_ is the perfect tone world; I don't play it much because it causes so much tension, but when I do I feel TC's distilled sonic beauty to it's simplest, purest form. The rest of _Early Minimalism_ isn't as impressive to me because the violin sounds more like a tone generator than a actual instrument. In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively to "experimental music," I have two comments. 1)The myth (meaning myth, not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately grasp. This is good, I think. Furthermore, if an artwork is truely experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point. The point is to take what you can from it, 'cause on the whole, it's likely bound to fail. 2) In general comming up with opinions that label art "good" and "crap" is, well, stupid. It's fun for conversation, but I pitty someone who looks at things that way. Vote with your feet, listen to what you feel compeled to listen again to. matt ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:21:03 -0500 (CDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Matthew Colonnese wrote: > his harmonics sound like the mornful end of the universe, and you can't get > much more intense than that. _Four Violins_ is the perfect tone world; I > don't play it much because it causes so much tension, but when I do I feel > TC's distilled sonic beauty to it's simplest, purest form. The rest of > _Early Minimalism_ isn't as impressive to me because the violin sounds more > like a tone generator than a actual instrument. Hmm... I don't know what the mournful end of the universe would sound like, so I can't speak to whether another sound approximates it. I do see that we have reversed reactions to _Four Violins_ vs. the rest of _Early Minimalism_. In the later works, it's slightly easier to hear what's going on. His point, as he says repeatedly, is overtone interactions within long durations. This is easier to perceive in the less sloppy environment. Although La Monte Young appears to be being somewhat of a putz about all of this (though I'd like to get a third opinion on the whole thing -- I wonder if that John Cale autobiography will ever be published), I do prefer his recordings (except for that blues band thing) and his installations, since they get to the heart of the sound more effectively. > In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively > to "experimental music," I have two comments. 1)The myth (meaning myth, > not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to > become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this > makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately > grasp. This is good, I think. Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly. > Furthermore, if an artwork is truely > experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point. The > point is to take what you can from it, 'cause on the whole, it's likely > bound to fail. As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore. Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to expect at least a modicum of effectiveness. > 2) In general comming up with opinions that label art > "good" and "crap" is, well, stupid. It's fun for conversation, but I pitty > someone who looks at things that way. Vote with your feet, listen to what > you feel compeled to listen again to. To say just "good" or "crap" is less than useful. Meaningful discussion of the content and goals of a performance, how well they achieve them, and how the audience responds is en essential part of communication within a musical community. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Burton Subject: Re: tony conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:23:38 -0400 (EDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote: > One problem that I had with the performance (as with Conrad's recordings) > was that the just intonation was hampered by the timbres used. The > scratchiness of the sounds and chaotic articulations created a lot of > off-tone noise, which made the intonations' effects much less effective. well, i would argue that you're looking for something in conrad's music that he isn't trying to achieve. if you listen to "outside the dream syndicate" or even conrad's influence on john cale's playing with the velvet underground, i think that you'll see a singleminded consistency. i think conrad's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's been doing it for decades. maybe check out phill niblock for less atonal experimentation... > What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not > convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be > getting these differences other than by accident. well, i was standing where i could see behind the scrim and i would have to disagree. the music was indeteminate in many respects, but conrad's actions and choices betrayed no confusion that i could see. b - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marks, Andy" Subject: RE: Upcoming Tzadiks Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:27:00 -0500 > John Zorn - Bribe Anybody know what this is? > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Herb Levy Subject: A question Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:14:54 -0800 Hi, I have a question re: Fred Frith's Pacifica. I've got the disc & like the piece pretty well, but I've seen several references, both on the disc & elsewhere to the length of the piece as "over an hour." The disc I have is only about 45 minutes long. The work seems complete, at least as it's described in the notes. Does anybody have an idea what's up here? Was the piece as performed an hour-long and then the score was cut for recording or what. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Herb Levy Subject: Antenna Radio Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:14:54 -0800 While there are probably shows on Antenna that are relevant to the interests of folks on this list in most weeks, I think this week that's particularly the case. My show, Mappings, presents a range of interactive computer pieces, including compositions and/or performances by Martin Bartlett, Chris Brown, George Lewis, Ikue Mori, & Evan Parker. Phil's show, Intoxication Hour, focuses on recent British improv. Both available, with 5 or 6 other weekly shows, at Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Upcoming Tzadiks Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:35:52 -0700 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:27:00 -0500 "Marks, Andy" wrote: > > > > > John Zorn - Bribe > Anybody know what this is? It is an unreleased 1986 composition. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:44:16 -0400 > > Jim> I just don't see the big difference between listening to > Jim> commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record > Jim> and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist > Jim> film music of Kazakhstan.... > >I see a huge difference, between finding a printed list of interesting >music, from a source we respect, where we can contemplate it at our >leisure, and use of whatever music is available to keep us listening >from one advertisement to the next. Ahhh, but isn't a "source we respect" different from person to person? Whether it's option Magazine, Wire, a JZ top ten, Marilyn Manson's Top Ten, MTV's website, a stray article in Billboard, something from your local paper, an indie 'zine? Just because one finds/discovers an artist through, say Rolling Stone, it doesn't mean that that person is a slave to the media conglomerate that is Rolling Stone, or shares Rolling Stone's viewpoint. It also doesn't make the artist any more or less relevant, no matter the style or the scene. So it took a little more work to find music via the JZ top ten than the average pop fan (a term which is used a little too derisively around here IMHO. Remember, without the context of pop there is no out-there, no avant garde, or whatever). If you continue to gleem recommendations from JZ's top ten, then the names have changed, but you do the same as that pop fan who scans Rolling Stone. A Fan of All Sorts of Music, Chris - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: Massacre Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:35:04 +0200 > Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into > Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred > Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album. This would be great news - if > it's true. Anyone know? I don't know anything about this, but I'd love to see them perform again, though I guess it won't be the same without Fred Maher. I always loved his drumming -- too bad he's turned away from "our" musicians. (The same, by the way, applies to Michael Beinhorn. I like his style, and I'd love to see him perform in a more adventurous set again.) Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:24:42 EDT In a message dated 98-08-17 13:04:46 EDT, Matthew Colonnese writes: << Furthermore, if an artwork is truely experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point. >> I'm not familiar with Tony Conrad, but it strikes me that there's a good definition lying herein - perhaps "experimental music" is that to which "good" or "bad" can't be applied? Just a thought..... Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:27:25 EDT In a message dated 98-08-17 13:24:27 EDT, Joseph S. Zitt writes: << As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore. >> If I remember right.....I think we concluded this was Varese. Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #438 Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:34:55 -0400 >From: Ken Waxman >Maybe then he and the other "free form" diletantes, such as Thurston >Moore should leave the music to those who know it and *want* to play it >- -- the names Coleman, Taylor, E. Parker, W. Parker, Lowe, Guy, Ware, >Gayle, Bailey, Oxley, Brotzmann come immediately to mind. This is news to me. Has Thurston Moore made some statement that he does not *want* to participate in the "free form" ensembles that he has been participating in over the past several years? To my knowledge, he has not. Were this the case, he could abandon those projects and stick with his money maker SY. If Moore has made no such statement, then your accusation against him appears to me to be a product of high-brow snobbery, namely, that someone involved in popular music cannot be simultaneously involved in music of the marginal culture. Your accusation seems to have ample proof against it originating just in this list, where many of the Zorn-listers are simultaneously interested in Brotzmann/Bailey/Taylor crowd and popular bands--taking examples from with long threads from past digests: King Crimson, Pere Ubu, Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart... On the contrary, I have some respect for Thurston Moore in that he chooses not to just put out one SY record after another (which IMO are pretty good listens in their own right) but also contributes to many improv records with the likes of Tom Surgal, Loren MazzaCane Connors, William Winant, Borbetomagus, etc. David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Felix" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:39:15 +0200 >What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording? >Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches >organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the >instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back >to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others, >but it's hard to determine what those factors are. Two recent examples: I bought SYR3 by Sonic Youth and Jim O'Rourke a few months back. In the Echo Canyon list, everyone was saying how great it was, saying it was free jazz and all, the reviews described it, at the very least, as the best Sonic Youth release of the decade, possibly of their entire career. As I happen to like SY's and O'Rourke's work, and seeing as everyone described the album as great I bought it. What a disappointment it was. 56 minutes of guitar feedback with some (really) bad trumpet playing and Kim Gordon's moaning voice in the middle. I only play the album now because I want to have my money worhtwhile, but I can't feel what's so great about that album. I was so disappointed that I found I liked Mystic Fugu Orchestra EP more than SYR3 (because the first presents something new, it's strange and it has a concept; SYR3 lacks all of these characteristics). My guess is that SY fans thought it was great because, for them, it was something really new, something they've never seen, but for the most people of this list (I assume), SYR3 will present nothing new or original. On the other hand, I went to that show I talked about earlier (Mori/ Coleman/ Lindsay/ Ribot/ Kang + Oval + Zíngaro/ Yoshihide/ Müller/ Bochinho) and I absolutely loved it. That single show made my summer worthwhile (and missing SY which were playing in the same night). However, the reviews said the show had been short of bullshit and they used the show to make this lame piece on how the New York experimental scene was dead (is it, new yorkers?). They absolutely trashed a show which I loved and still carry a smile in my face because of it. SO my guess is that experimental music is all about the feelings it awakens in somebody when they listen to it, more than any other music, because experimental has very few structures for you to hang on. Sorry for THIS rant. Felix jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Tony Conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:51:39 -0400 >On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote: >> There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I >> recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an >> excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who >> hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite >> niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then) >> I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an >> audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how >> his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke. Having seen "Slapping Pythagoras" and "Four Violins" (behind the sheet) performed and enjoyed them both, I have a different interpretation of the music. However, each person interprets on their own terms and reaches their own conclusions. I have no problem with that. What I don't understand in this post is the part where "I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how his performance was perceived." What would you have had him do? He is playing a composed piece from beginning to end. If he (somehow) were to sense that the audience was dissatisfied with the performance, would you have had him abandon the piece midway through and switch to something a little more "rocking"? (That would have been something to see. :) ) I think Conrad came to DC to play a drone. He did exactly as he intended. If the merits of the drone were lost on the (perhaps uninformed or perhaps unwarned or perhaps informed but unimpressed all the same) audience, there is nothing he can do about it except play for those who are enjoying it and finish the night out. David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:02:43 -0700 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:24:42 EDT TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-08-17 13:04:46 EDT, Matthew Colonnese writes: > > << Furthermore, if an artwork is truely > experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point. >> > > I'm not familiar with Tony Conrad, but it strikes me that there's a good > definition lying herein - perhaps "experimental music" is that to which "good" > or "bad" can't be applied? Right, if you can define what experimental is. Tony Conrad, for example, was definitely experimental... 35 years ago. Being one of the creators of the "drone" movement, there is nothing wrong about him still pushing it at the end of this century, but does it mean it is still "experimental"? Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Tony Conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:15:46 -0500 (CDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, David Keffer wrote: > What I don't understand in this post is the part where "I thought > it was a pretty terrible abuse of an audience, and that it seemed that > Conrad neither knew nor cared how his performance was perceived." What > would you have had him do? He is playing a composed piece from > beginning to end. Well, then, perhaps the problem is in the composition. A piece designed to be performed before an audience must take the audience into account. Do we have any idea what was composed about the piece? In moving the small number of pitches around, it seemed that he was cycling among identical sections. In what parameter did the sections differ: rhythm? dynamics? tempo? articulation? To believe that a piece must include, say, 63 iterations of a pattern, no matter the context, because the score says that it does, then to consider the performance above reproach because it followed the score, is to consider the score as a sacred text. I find this kind of elevation and adulation of a composition above the reactions of the people experiencing it to be a highly distateful disrespect for the audience. After all, this power situation that he creates is precisely that which he claims to detest in all his writings. > If he (somehow) were to sense that the audience > was dissatisfied with the performance, would you have had him abandon > the piece midway through and switch to something a little more "rocking"? He has been playing this same work for many years. He has, no doubt, been able to hear feedback from his audiences. I found it quite significant that every single person speaking up between the sets had the same reaction. (If others there believed as stronglythat the event was satisfying, why were they silent?) Should he have switched pieces in midstream? Probably not (though I do try to include that kind of flexibility in my own pieces). Should he have realized that much of the audience would feel trapped the performance, and perhaps done it in a venue where people other than those in the front rows could step out and in again without tromping others. Some try to excuse this music by calling it "experimental". Practially speaking, he has been performing this work for many years, has recorded two boxed sets and a few other discs of it, and documented what he is doing at great length. One would think that at this late date the "experiment" would be complete, and that he would have no further need for quinea pigs. > (That would have been something to see. :) ) I think Conrad came > to DC to play a drone. He did exactly as he intended. If the merits > of the drone were lost on the (perhaps uninformed or perhaps unwarned > or perhaps informed but unimpressed all the same) > audience, there is nothing he can do about it except play for those > who are enjoying it and finish the night out. And there is nothing we can do about it except to alert others that this is what they might expect in a similar circumstances, and learn how to improve on it in our own work. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vlad-Drac@webtv.net (Theo Klaase) Subject: Zorn completist. Date: 17 Aug 1998 15:33:08 -0500 (CDT) If I was wealthy, I'd have no problem buying each JZ Cd available. I wouldn't want to miss a particular amazing song that's possibly out there floating on some disc I don't have. Same goes for Zappa and others such. But I do agree that it is good not to fall into a rut of only purchasing one artist offerings. It's narrow-mindedness. Please, let us avoid that at all cost. -Theo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Re: Tony Conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:35:05 -0400 jzitt@humansystems.com wrote: >Well, then, perhaps the problem is in the composition. A piece designed to >be performed before an audience must take the audience into account... >He [Tony Conrad] has been playing this same work for many years. >He has, no doubt, been able to hear feedback from his audiences. I hear what you are saying about the performance experience but I don't think it is within the privileges of the listener to expect that the performer change what they are doing based on the listener's response to the music. I too have attended experimental shows where I could not believe what I was hearing. I attended a Borbetomagus show once, with little advanced warning. The deafening and piercing cacophony of that band was news to me. I was staggered and wincing for about fifteen minutes until I left with a headache. But I am not about to expect Borbetomagus to change their sound. I have also seen Ornette Coleman (with Prime Time) where I had a good deal of advance information but was simply horrified by the dismal new age calamity I witnessed. I stuck it through just to hear the infrequent sax solos. Again, I am not going to expect that Ornette Coleman disavow himself of all doings with about half of the other members in that performance (which is what I think would have been a good idea). It is certainly within the privileges of the listener to leave. It is also perfectly legitimate and intelligent to comment on the performance as you did. However, I don't think one can expect the performer to alter their music based on critical or mainstream review. The fundamental problem of popular music is just this: recording artists are encouraged to alter their music to fit a mold, in this case a mold defined by what is commercially marketable. There is a virtue in sticking to one's guns. Admittedly that virtue does not invariably equate to excellent music, but then again some virtues are useless and self-defeating but virtuous nonetheless. >After all, this power situation that he creates is precisely that which he >claims to detest in all his writings. I don't think that Conrad's writing of the power situation involved the power of performer over audience (which is pretty much ubiquitous in any live setting) as much as the power of one performer over other members of the ensemble... (but I could be wrong; it's been a while since I read the Conrad liner notes in the Table of the Elements boxed set and his writings in the magazine Halana!.) >And there is nothing we can do about it except to alert others that this >is what they might expect in a similar circumstances... Of course, I agree with you on this, and this is why we subscribe to the Zorn digest. But this was not the argument of the original post. Anyway, thanks for clarifying your point. David K. p.s. Are there now two boxed sets of Conrad's work? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Tony Conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 15:54:22 -0500 (CDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, David Keffer wrote: > I hear what you are saying about the performance experience > but I don't think it is within the privileges of the listener > to expect that the performer change what they are doing > based on the listener's response to the music. Ideally, the performer and audience have a symbiotic relationship, each affecting the other. (Most ideally, there is no difference between performer and audience, just people gathered together in a flexible combination of people contribuing sound and peple contributing attention.) I think there's a middle ground between being completely at the will of the audience (at which point you become rather like a player at a piano bar taking requests (not that that's necessarily a bad thing)) and completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have stayed home and let someone play a CD). > I too have attended experimental shows where I could not believe > what I was hearing. I attended a Borbetomagus show once, with little > advanced warning. The deafening and piercing cacophony of that band > was news to me. I was staggered and wincing for about fifteen minutes > until I left with a headache. But I am not about to expect > Borbetomagus to change their sound. In that case you voted with your feet, being in a situation where it was possible to do so. But you probably wished you had known what you were in for ahead of time. In Comma performances, we try to organise things so people can move in and out with minimum disruption (which is admittedly hard in conventional performance spaces). I like the freedom this allows, though it is someimes more of a challenge. > I have also seen Ornette Coleman (with Prime Time) where I had > a good deal of advance information but was simply horrified by > the dismal new age calamity I witnessed. I stuck it through Was this the Civilization shows last year, or something earlier? I saw him perform a lot in the 80s, and find it hard to imagine a Prime Time show as a "dismal new age calamity". But perhaps some of the newer directions on Tone Dialing were taken to an extreme. > I don't think that Conrad's writing of the power situation involved > the power of performer over audience (which is pretty much ubiquitous > in any live setting) as much as the power of one performer over > other members of the ensemble... (but I could be wrong; it's been a > while since I read the Conrad liner notes in the Table of the Elements > boxed set and his writings in the magazine Halana!.) From what I can understand of his writings (and, admittedly, when he gets off onto the Pythagoras thing it gets a bit hard to follow, he is against the whole star system in general. That he is now participating in it, with fancy Web sites, magazine covers, and expensive product, is a contradiction what he may not yet have consciously addressed. > p.s. Are there now two boxed sets of Conrad's work? From what I've heard, _Early Minimalism: Volume Two_ is due in the fall. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Neales Subject: Praxis Date: 17 Aug 1998 17:01:07 -0400 I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap. However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone know anything about this?? Who plays on it???? Thanks, Kevin N. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Tony Conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:24:39 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote: > completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have > stayed home and let someone play a CD). but, isn't this subjective? > In that case you voted with your feet, being in a situation where it was > possible to do so. But you probably wished you had known what you were in > for ahead of time. i don't know... part of the charm of discovering new experiences is not neccessarily being prepared for what lies ahead. it would be boring (for me) if everything was predictable. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:23:10 -0700 At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote: >I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all >previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on >the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap. > >However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis >album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone >know anything about this?? Who plays on it???? It's the Material/Praxis "1984" recording, which is about that old, with remixes. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Tony Conrad Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:36:53 -0500 (CDT) On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote: > On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote: > > > completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have > > stayed home and let someone play a CD). > > but, isn't this subjective? Not in this context, I don't think. If an artist is completely ignoring an audience, to the point of being effectively unaware of their presence, what is the point of being in the same room as the audience, other than perhaps the frisson of excitement that one might get from being in the same room as a Famous Artist (which can get a bit cannibalistic at times). > i don't know... part of the charm of > discovering new experiences is > not neccessarily being prepared > for what lies ahead. it would > be boring (for me) if everything > was predictable. If I knew exactly what shapes the next week's worth of clouds would have, they would be boring. If, however, I weren't be able to predict pretty well that for the next week the Earth would have a breathable atmosphere, it might make getting on with life significantly more difficult. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #438 Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:13:12 -0400 (EDT) I called Thurston a free-form dilettante because having seen him perform twice with good rhythm sections -- at FIMAV and NYC -- I don't think he's a very good improviser. He'd be better off using the SY $$$$ to fund CDs and concerts by folks who IMHO can *really* play improvised music. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Tri-Centric Festival, NYC Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:09:10 -0500 Visiting the Braxton-oriented Tri-Centric site at: http://www-osf.wesleyan.edu/music/braxton I saw the listing of this festival to take place at Greenwich House on the weekends of 9/24-9/26 and 10/1-10/3. Though Braxton the composer won't, apparently, be represented, he is performing with a number of ensembles. Leading those groups will be: Rozanne Levin, Kevin Norton, Seth Misterka, Taylor Ho Bynum, Morgan O'Hara, Bruce Morris, David Novak, Jackson Moore, Richard McGee III, James Fei, Kevin O'Neil, Joe Fonda, Brandon Evans and Chris Jonas, all of whom, I suppose, have some relationship with AB at Wesleyan. I'm only familiar with two or three of these names, mostly from work with Braxton. If anyone knows more about any of these folk, I'd be curious to hear your impressions of their music. The dates of this festival, by the way, match up exactly with the Masada and Bar Kokhba ensemble dates at Tonic. Decisions, decisions... Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:40:15 -0400 (EDT) >Hmm... I don't know what the mournful end of the universe would sound >like, so I can't speak to whether another sound approximates it. > >I do see that we have reversed reactions to _Four Violins_ vs. the rest of >_Early Minimalism_. In the later works, it's slightly easier to hear >what's going on. His point, as he says repeatedly, is overtone >interactions within long durations. This is easier to perceive in the less >sloppy environment. As usual there is a difference in basic assumptions here. I personally don't care if Tony Conrad was successfull in bringing to fruition the goals which he set himself. I don't care if he had complete control over the notes flying around the room, or even if he was had control of the paramaters the chaotic note production. I don't care if there was movement, composition, complexity, originality or any other arbitrary prinicple of musical "goodness" (or concern for the audience, or whatnot). All of these can be usefull descriptors of why one person did or did not like a piece of music, but too often (and I sense of whiff of this in Joseph's responces to TC*) they are used as universal measures of success or failure of piece. They are nothing of the sort. They are fairly arbitrary assumptions about artistic value used to reductively analyze music and then give these analyses some objectivity. And for good reason, it is difficult to professionalize and academize musical analysis if everyone just stood around and said "well, I liked it" and "yup." But it is easy to let these formerly analytical principles become evaluative criterion, and then eventually to become dominant criterion. *though this is fairly common assumption underlying most of the criticism exchanged on this and other lists; and, I guess, critical thought in general. I enjoy TC's music because I love the sound. If it changed too much, or had too much forward motion it would loose the epic, unwavering quality that is so important to it power. LaMonte young may be more sucessfull at clearly defining and articulating the sonic interactions he is exploring. This is likely one reason he plays to art establishment and TC play rock clubs. But there's more to music than rigorous exploration of basic prinicples. One person likes clear articulation, others "sloppier" ones. That TC plays music that does not corespond exactly to his written goals only makes him a failure at following through on his written goals, not in making enjoyable music. >Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it >possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator >while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly. > I'm curious if the key word here is "cliches" or "badly"? And in anycase, what about all those folks who like wankery misunderstood innovators? Is it a real abomination that some folks will get enjoyment out of music that's been "objectively" identified as poor? side note, side note: I have a pet theory re: the David Shine tour. All the classical reviewers wrote him up as being quite poor for not having this or that technical expertise. The audiences, reportedly, loved it. I wonder though if those same foibles which earened him the scorn of the classical establishment were heard as emotional by the audience? And that the properly played piece, with all it's technical excellence comes off as cold to the untrained ear? Anyone? > >As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the >time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore. >Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to >expect at least a modicum of effectiveness. The music biz has become so huge that the "audience" varies. If I go to concert at some small downtown space which usually presents "experimental" sorts of music to mostly other musicians, I (and I think most others) don't expect a fully worked out piece. I'm looking for ideas taking shaped, sometime successfuly, sometimes not. An outside festival for on the New Haven Green should probably be something tried and true with great effectiveness. Somewhere in between, should be somewhere in between. ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason J. Tar" Subject: Ice _Bad Blood_ Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:11:35 -0400 >Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST) >From: Joe Weil >Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli >BTW, has anyone seen the latest Ice, Bad Blood, in the stores? >CDEurope has it for 36US$, too much. I got mine via RoughTrade (www.roughtrade.com). A domestic (US) issue of it will be out in Sept/Oct via Reprise. JJTar. --- Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar W. W. J. D? (What would Jason Do?) http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason ICQ@13792120 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Hewins Subject: In The Grass (Ducret/Previte) Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:19:56 -0500 Anyone know what's up with this album? I looked at ICE Magazine's web site and it lists it as coming out tomorrow (8/18). Enja's web site has it up there. Only thing is is that none of my local record stores have it in their databases. Any ideas? Any info? Dan - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:06:40 -0700 I have not heard the album under discussion but I have been noticing some interesting points being brought up around it. Edgard Varese referred to his work as "organised sound" and no discussion of modern noise music would be complete without a nod to his aesthetic purpose. Noise music is to me a logical step in the direction of freeing music from arbitrarily determined systems that determine more than they describe the result of "organised sound". Schoenbergs twelve-tone was once a revolution but quickly became equally as dogamtic as the tonal system that was it's predecessor. There are no believable rules for what music is other than Varese's. Questions as to the quality of a piece of music can only be answered if one is aware of a musicians purpose-allowing you to judge quality by determining if he/she has satisfied that purpose. Any question of quality without knowledge of creators purpose is simply an argument of taste-which is quite obviously not a functional debate. Which may be very frustrating to those of us who know that we have "good taste". Improv or composed?Depends on the purpose, but I don't think anyone would say that the music world hasn't been enriched by the introduction of improv. But there remain some very serious questions about the quality of noise bands and how it may be determined. If you can't hear it then maybe you should start at the beginning-Monteverdi or something. Let me present you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to tell-perhaps you need to reexamine your understanding of music.Sorry about the essay.... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charles Gillett" Subject: Re: weird little boy Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:36:02 +0000 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:04:58 -0400, Caleb Deupree wrote: > It's a fine line, perhaps, but an extreme example might be > someone who bought every record JZ made because JZ is so cool, but > doesn't listen to any of the surrounding context (free jazz, thrash, > contemporary classical, musique concrete, etc.) because they are > complete unknowns. It seems like a fair number of more "trad" jazz fans on rec.music. bluenote think that all JZ fans are this way, and also that the musicians themselves are only out to fool people into thinking that they're cool and hip, etc. Is the currency of cool really that valuable? Would someone willingly live a life of poverty, playing unpopular music, just so some kids will think they're cool? Anyway, even though I own a (to me) surprising number of Zorn albums, I think he's been more valuable to me as a pointer toward other musics--the free, thrash, classical, concrete that you mention. Certainly, I like quite a bit of his music, and I have an inexplicable affection for Masada which drains my wallet regularly, but as a guide to the underworld he's pretty spiffy. On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:44:16 -0400, "Chris Barrett" wrote: > Just because one finds/discovers an artist through, say Rolling Stone, > it doesn't mean that that person is a slave to the media conglomerate > that is Rolling Stone, or shares Rolling Stone's viewpoint. I discovered John Zorn through Rolling Stone. In one of their year- end issues they reviewed the first Mr. Bungle record and _Torture Garden_. I bought _TG_ shortly thereafter. On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:27:38 -0700, "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote: > But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some > improv/noise is great or crap? For some people (the "dogmatic") it > is good by definition (or the question about "good" and "bad" is > irrelevant). And the vast majority does not even care of the genre > (and they would not believe, anyway, that you can even make music > which is 100% improvised or noise :-). The result? Zillions of > records that are "great" and very few that ten years after you > really remember or put on your turntable... To some extent it's that way for all kinds of music, isn't it? Who's going to be listening to "Hello Nasty" in 10 years? Maybe everyone, more likely just a dwindling number of hardcore fans. I think the problem with experimental, improv, or noise albums is not so much that everyone assumes that they're great from the get-go, but that there's always someone out there who will like any given album, and in this relatively small scene one voice is pretty loud. There's no critical consensus, usually (beyond the bit about John Fahey doing no wrong). Generally, there are only a few minutes of any improv album that I can actually point to and say "Mmm, good!" on the first or second listen. If there's nothing horrible on the album, then I continue to listen to it and discover other parts I think are good, or parts I think are bad. After a few months, I might feel confident enough to say that such-and-such an album is good or bad. Sometimes I never figure it out. I keep buying Loren MazzaCane Connors CDs, hoping that some important piece will fall into place and I'll be able to rave about how much I love his music. Instead I continue to be held in a state of suspended opinion. I *think* I really like his music.... -- Charles - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 17 Aug 1998 17:32:39 -0500 >As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the >time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore. >Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to >expect at least a modicum of effectiveness. John Cage didn't like to use the word 'experimental' for his music for precisely this reason, that it implied somehow that the music wasn't "ready" yet. >To say just "good" or "crap" is less than useful. Meaningful discussion of >the content and goals of a performance, how well they achieve them, and >how the audience responds is en essential part of communication within a >musical community. And of course, subjectivity plays a lot as well. A Sunday article in the Washington Post said that nothing Cage wrote beyond 1952 had any musical merit. For me, that's the equivalent of saying post 1952 Cage is "crap". There's no way to have an intellegent conversation about music starting off from a position like this, especially an uninformed one. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | | | | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | | | | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: tony conrad Date: 18 Aug 1998 00:20:16 -0400 Brent Burton wrote: > well, i would argue that you're looking for something in conrad's music > that he isn't trying to achieve. if you listen to "outside the dream > syndicate" or even conrad's influence on john cale's playing with the > velvet underground, i think that you'll see a singleminded consistency. > i think conrad's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's been doing it > for decades. I haven't heard the Faust album, though I have heard the early Velvets material. That Conrad is consistent in doing what he want is well, good, and agreed. > maybe check out phill niblock for less atonal experimentation... Ooh, yeah! I have several of his CDs, and had his "China and Sunsets"(?) video for awhile (before a bunch of my stuff was ripped off). Very clear, quite exciting work (though I don't know if I'd want to hear a large chunk of it live). > > What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not > > convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be > > getting these differences other than by accident. > > well, i was standing where i could see behind the scrim and i would have > to disagree. the music was indeteminate in many respects, but conrad's > actions and choices betrayed no confusion that i could see. I don't think he was confused, just that his grasp may have exceeded his reach. -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 18 Aug 1998 00:38:16 -0400 Matthew Colonnese wrote: > All of these can be usefull descriptors of why one person did or did not > like a piece of music, but too often (and I sense of whiff of this in > Joseph's responces to TC*) they are used as universal measures of success > or failure of piece. They are nothing of the sort. They are fairly > arbitrary assumptions about artistic value used to reductively analyze > music and then give these analyses some objectivity. One light bulb goes on for me in reading this: if, in experiencing music, I enjoy it at a gut level, I often don't dissect it very much, unless it's in the sense of seeing what makes it tick so I can incorporate those elements in my own work. If I dislike something, though, (and I'm frequently razzed by my more judgmental friends about how rarely I ever dislike anything), I tend to try to break it down into figuring out what was meant, how it was done, the conditions in which it happened, and the like, in the hopes of learning exactly what it was that didn't work for me and how to avoid it. Experiencing the Conrad performance helped me come to some realisations about duration, performance structure, and performance space organisation that I hope to be able to use in creating my own performances. -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bobonic@westol.com (Adam MacGregor) Subject: Non-musicians can't improv??? Nuts to that!! Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:07:51 -0400 : Let me present : you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing : itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of : this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any : idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in : ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to : affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin : "to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference : they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the : performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as : revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to : tell-perhaps you need to reexamine your understanding of music.Sorry about : the essay.... OK...I have to take issue with this cat...What about the work of the Nihilist Spasm Band? For those of you on this list who may be unfamiliar, I'd highly recommend checking out their stuff, it's all on import from Alchemy. These guys started a band with no desire at all to learn how to play music on traditional instruments, even. They began as a kazoo band in 1965 in London, Ontario, Canada and are still in existence today. I had the great pleasure to catch most of a show that they did in Pittsburgh, PA, last October and was thoroughly impressed (after I had some time to sort out what exactly the fuck I had just witnessed). Their music is wholly improvised on homemade instruments, and they're led by a cat named Bill Exeley who reads his own language-poetry type texts in a basso profundo over a total wall of clattering percussion, violin and guitar scree, kazoo shreiking, and sometimes a theremin, according to thier webpage. Check it out at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pratten/NSB/ for some mind-blowing info. I think that they provide sort of a nice contrast to improv music as an otherwise "serious" and "groundbreaking" medium--rather, they sound like a bunch of guys who are interested in presenting chaotic sound at "play," as in Romper Room after a truckload of pixie-stix, if you know what i mean. --adam - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv??? Nuts to that!! Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:41:26 -0700 Mr. MacGregor, I didn't say that non-musicians were incapable of improvisation. That would indeed be the only thing that they were capable of. My point was that the "quality" of music can only be judged with knowledge of the performer's intention otherwise if you enjoy something then there is no need to persuade yourself otherwise. I personally enjoy The Jackson Fives "Dancin' Machine" more than I do Stravinsky's Sym. in e-flat major. I see no reason to question this. My other point was that if you can't determine the difference between good and bad music when listening to it then you may have a problem with your understanding of music. How else could you determine it's quality if not by merely listening to it. "Musicians" are of course capable of producing bad music. Non-musicians are not technically capable of producing good music when improvising, they may simply find that they have done so. I'm frustrated...what exactly do you mean by non-musicians? I personally feel that non-musicians would be more likely to rely on the limited patterns that they can predict when "improvising" than a skilled player would be. I find abhorrent the notion that it is some sort of virtue to want to play music in ignorance. I doubt that such people can truly be said to love music. And after many encounters with people who have done these same sorts of projects my assumptions have been borne out. They seem to be more interested in thumbing their noses at people who have made an effort to learn something about the medium. "you don't need to learn music man...you just do it!" I can not verify your example because I am not familiar with it, but nor can I discount it except that you didn't really make clear whether they really were non-musicians (people that don't know how to use an object to make sounds that they can predict). If they are non-musicians then their product is not music...it is sound - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: experimental/ skills Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:45:36 +0200 >> As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the >> time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore. >> Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to >> expect at least a modicum of effectiveness. > > John Cage didn't like to use the word 'experimental' for his music for > precisely this reason, that it implied somehow that the music wasn't > "ready" yet. "I'll never forget what I experienced in the 60's when I played with Miles Davis. I learned such a lot when I was a member of his quintet. Saxophonist George Coleman used to practise in his room all day, experimenting on various scales and melodies. One day Miles said to him, 'I don't pay you for experimenting up in your room. I pay you for doing it with the band on stage.' And Miles was right. Experiment takes place in front of an audience, and the audience is a part of it. The true experimental field for a musician is the stage, and only during the concert there are moments of truth." (Herbie Hancock in an interview with Der Spiegel) > you should start at the beginning-Monteverdi or something. Let me present > you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing > itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of > this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any > idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in > ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to > affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin > to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference > they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the > performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as > revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to But Arto Lindsay couldn't play the guitar as well. And he clearly couldn't sing. Myself, I can't play an instrument, but I'm the leader of a free-improv group. And I feel that we sound interesting nevertheless, and our performances could compare to, say, Material's Live From Soundscape (I realized this only after some performances, which means it's no plagiatism). Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Beardsley Subject: Re: Tri-Centric Festival, NYC Date: 18 Aug 1998 08:41:24 -0400 > brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote: > > > Visiting the Braxton-oriented Tri-Centric site at: > > http://www-osf.wesleyan.edu/music/braxton > > I saw the listing of this festival to take place at Greenwich House on > the weekends of 9/24-9/26 and 10/1-10/3. Though Braxton the composer > won't, apparently, be represented, he is performing with a number of > ensembles. Leading those groups will be: Rozanne Levin, Kevin Norton, > Seth Misterka, Taylor Ho Bynum, Morgan O'Hara, Bruce Morris, David > Novak, Jackson Moore, Richard McGee III, James Fei, Kevin O'Neil, Joe > Fonda, Brandon Evans and Chris Jonas, all of whom, I suppose, have > some relationship with AB at Wesleyan. I'm only familiar with two or > three of these names, mostly from work with Braxton. If anyone knows > more about any of these folk, I'd be curious to hear your impressions > of their music. James Fei has been in Braxton's ensemble for a few years. He'sa student where Braxton teaches. -- * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y * xouoxno@virtulink.com * * J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e * M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor * * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DR S WILKIE Subject: Miles Concert tapes Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:17:06 GMT0BST Hi, just an off the cuff request, but if anyone has any Miles davis concert recordings (audience, radio, whatever) that they'd be willing to copy/trade, could they mail me off list (s.wilkie@swan.ac.uk) with the location and date of the concerts? I'm afraid there's a lot I don't want, but it would be too long to type out a list either way. Also, I'll be away for a couple of weeks, so don't expect a quick reply! Thanks, Sean - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: experimental/ skills Date: 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700 Chris, I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to experiment on stage then he isn't doing anything wrong by doing so. The nature of jazz being improvisational I'm not really sure that you can still call it experimental to do so in a "jazz" context and call experimenting. Jazz musicians know what they are doing. I don't think that there is anything more "experimental" about improv alone-it simply demands that you compose more quickly. As to what you do...you say you are a non-musician?Then what are you doing?! You and Mr.MacGregor seem to believe that I represent some sort of classical music establishment or something in my definitions of musicians. A musician is simply one who organises sound for a purpose-expressing with sound alone (versus language). I also happen to believe that if the "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the performer can take credit for. When you make music are you really unaware of what you are doing-are your musical decisions based on your limited musical vocabulary or do you free yourself of these constraints by being ignorant (you said it). Do you think random noise is music?Do people seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative wonders of the human ear. That's absurd-keep in mind I'm not saying to limit yourself to instruments or written music BUT... You have to know what you're doing. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Marc Downing Date: 18 Aug 1998 07:09:23 -0700 I have a much broader def. of musician than you seem to think I do. An effect of being a non-musician is not a definition (not technically capable of producing etc.)My point about the Jackson five was exactly that AND I never have made any statement about loftier purposes or baser purposes. What does it matter? Your purpose is a personal thing. I draw a distinct line between quality and preference and that is what the Jackson/Stravinsky example was for. It seems I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "non-musician". That was what I was asking you when I said that (your tech proficiecy quote) try re-reading it.I said exactly that the only way one could determine the quality of music was by judging it's establishment of creator purpose. So I don't think you could say that I claim to know the difference between good and bad music. Musical ignorance is my paraphrase of a condition expressed by someone in an earlier post-people who don't know what they are doing musically.I don't think this means someone who can't read music or play a traditional instrument. There is no virtue in ignorance.My examples may be offensive but so is your complete misunderstanding of what I said. My reactions to performers like this are based only on personal experiences-I have seen nothing of virtue and no love of music from these people. That is all I know. It might all have been a little muddy- I have personal reasons why this topic can cloud my reason. I invite you to email me so that we both have the oppurtunity to hash this out.I dont want to burden this list any more than I have. xian@mbay.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv??? Nuts to that!! Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:08:06 -0400 >the "quality" of music can only be judged with knowledge of the >performer's intention >I personally enjoy The Jackson Fives "Dancin' >Machine" more than I do Stravinsky's Sym. in e-flat major. I see no reason >to question this. My other point was that if you can't determine the >difference between good and bad music when listening to it then you may >have a problem with your understanding of music. How else could you >determine it's quality if not by merely listening to it. What were the intentions of the Jackson 5? Are they, or is their music, good or bad? Are their aspirations, and therefore their intentions, loftier or baser than those of Stravinsky? Perhaps you consider it unneccessary to judge the Jackson 5 because you enjoy them. > "Musicians" are of course capable of producing bad music. Non-musicians >are not technically capable of producing good music when improvising, they >may simply find that they have done so. I'm frustrated...what exactly do >you mean by non-musicians? It seems you already have an answer. They are "not technically capable of producing good music when improvising". You also claim to know the difference between good and bad music, even at a technical level. I think your intellectual position on the quality of music is based on your definition of what musical "ignorance" is (see below). >I personally feel that non-musicians would be >more likely to rely on the limited patterns that they can predict when >"improvising" than a skilled player would be. I find abhorrent the notion >that it is some sort of virtue to want to play music in ignorance. I doubt >that such people can truly be said to love music. And after many encounters >with people who have done these same sorts of projects my assumptions have >been borne out. They seem to be more interested in thumbing their noses at >people who have made an effort to learn something about the medium. "you >don't need to learn music man...you just do it!" I can not verify your >example because I am not familiar with it, but nor can I discount it except >that you didn't really make clear whether they really were non-musicians >(people that don't know how to use an object to make sounds that they can >predict). If they are non-musicians then their product is not music...it is >sound I understand the "virtue in ignorance". Intellectualizing something you love can be the best way to kill it. Your caricature of the "musically ignorant" ("... don't need to learn music, man ...") is glib, and a little offensive. For some, playing and composing can be lifelong pursuits, but the idea of "education" can be, at the same time, unproductive and irrelevant. The Nihilist Spasm band plays music, and makes sounds. At the same time. Marc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv??? Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:37:24 +0200 > From: "Christian Heslop" > To: > Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv??? Nuts to that!! > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:41:26 -0700 > My point was that > the "quality" of music can only be judged with knowledge of the performer's > intention otherwise if you enjoy something then there is no need to > persuade yourself otherwise. I totally agree with you. I think the problem is the fact that some of the music from for instance Zorn, Ribot, Baily etc. sounds like a free experiment, but we all know these guys are absolutely familiar with their instruments and have very clear visions of how it should sound like. It's hard to determine though whether *soundsculptures* of musicians we are not familiar with are meant to sound what they sound like: are false tones always meant to be false? does the drummer only want to play unregular rhythms? >My other point was that if you can't determine the > difference between good and bad music when listening to it then you may > have a problem with your understanding of music. You're right again. > I find abhorrent the notion > that it is some sort of virtue to want to play music in ignorance. I doubt > that such people can truly be said to love music. No, they love to be cool... Being avantgarde is cool... >They seem to be more interested in thumbing their noses at > people who have made an effort to learn something about the medium. "you > don't need to learn music man...you just do it!" A few years ago I read an article in a dutch musicians magazine called "Music Maker", which consisted of an interview with the belgian band dEUS. They stated, out of the blue, that musicians like Pat Metheny and Joe Satriani deserved to die, because they weren't making music, but only playing notes. Satriani was a 'notefucker' their guitarist said, because he played fast. I think this statements of non-musicians or musicians who just can't play as well technically as the musicians they critisize are just comments of pure frustration. These people just don't like music! I've been a drummer for 16 years (I'm 24 now) and I used to be frustrated to see professional drummers play at clinics or regular concerts, because they had chops I knew I never could play. But it's not the chops what it's about, it's about musicality. Of course Satriani, Joey Baron Chick Corea, Zorn, Ribot etc. can play fast, but they know when to do it. They know when it's musically interesting. For me it took some years to recognize the clear distinction between playing notes and playing music. I know the chops of Joey Baron, I could write them down and study on them, but what's the use of integrating them in your own music when you only play it as a note-example? You may be sounding like someone you respect, but is this what respect is about? Please create your own ideas and use all the great music around as an inspiration, don't use it as a symbol for fake-musicality! >If they are non-musicians then their product is not music...it is > sound And anybody can make a scratcing sound on a distorted guitar. Jeroen de Boer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DR S WILKIE Subject: Re: Non-musicians Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:14:12 GMT0BST Just an aside to the debate, but isn't there a big difference between recorded and live music, in this respect? That the latter means you're performing: not that the music can't play a BIG part in that, but it can't JUST be music in that context, surely? (Sometimes, this is a problem I have at concerts: I don't feel they're performing - for this audience, at that time - at all). Sean - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: experimental/ skills Date: 18 Aug 1998 08:24:25 -0700 On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700 "Christian Heslop" wrote: > > Chris, > I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree > somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he said of most '60s avant garde artists... Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely things that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him). This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of this discussion. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "dekater" Subject: Re: Michel Godard Date: 18 Aug 1998 18:43:02 +0200 Brian wrote: >Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've >come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French >tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work? I'm not familiar with Godards work but during my vacation I bought a Nato cd in Lyon ('Les films de ma Ville 1' - nato 112033) on which improvising musicians play film themes (a.o. Steve Arguelles. Steve Beresford, Tony Coe...) On it a duo Lol Coxhill-Michel Godard playing the tune from 'Mon oncle', a film by Jacques Tati. Great! Jan Luyben - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Handley" Subject: berne's no(h)bag tour: UK / dave Douglas Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:51:28 PDT It just occurred to me that I hadn't heard anything about Tim Berne's medium-large ensemble tour of the UK, only about four or five dates. It was called the No(h)bag tour, and featured Evan Parker (!) and Django Bates, among others. Anybody catch any of these? Even if you don't want to post, could you at least let me know what I missed? Also, Dave Douglas tapes are wanted! Did THOUGHTS AROUND MAHFOUZ gig more than once? cheers, scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700 At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote: >At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote: >>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all >>previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on >>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap. >> >>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis >>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone >>know anything about this?? Who plays on it???? This has been delayed until September 16. In addition to the original tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7), Pat Thrall, and David Castelan. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700 At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote: >At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote: >>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all >>previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on >>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap. >> >>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis >>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone >>know anything about this?? Who plays on it???? This has been delayed until September 16. In addition to the original tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7), Pat Thrall, and David Castelan. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: experimental/ skills Date: 18 Aug 1998 11:32:53 -0700 I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did. ---------- > From: Patrice L. Roussel > To: Christian Heslop > Cc: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com; proussel@ichips.intel.com > Subject: Re: experimental/ skills > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 8:24 AM > > > On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700 "Christian Heslop" wrote: > > > > Chris, > > I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree > > somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to > > It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he > said of most '60s avant garde artists... > > Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely things > that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him). > > This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of this > discussion. > > Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: VINYL/CD Sale (Updated 8/18/98) ... Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:33:15 -0400 Hi, I've just added a few new items to my vinyl/CD sale list. They can be found (along with basic info) at the following website: http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list. Just let me know. New items include, among other things ... ø (Mika Vainio), Pan(a)sonic, Coil, Scorn, Gastr Del Sol, Tortoise, Oval etc. Thanks for looking. -Patrick pm.carey@utoronto.ca - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: Praxis recommendation Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:45:58 -0400 I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does anyone have any recommendations? Marc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:54:40 -0500 (CDT) On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Marc Downing wrote: > I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does > anyone have any recommendations? The only one that I've heard is the live album with the Invisible Scratch Picklez (sp?), which I love and recommend highly. I just picked up their "Metatron" for $3 during lunch, and will listen to it after this John Coltrane CD is over... - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar Subject: Min Xiao-Fen Date: 18 Aug 1998 17:01:59 -0300 Hey Zornheads! I've enjoyed a lot Min Xiao-Fen's playing in Filmworks VIII; is there any other cd you could recommend me to dig in? Thanks in advance, Hugo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john shiurba Subject: Re: experimental/ skills Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:13:22 -0700 Christian Heslop wrote: > I also happen to believe that if the > "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not > involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you > didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you > can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the > performer can take credit for. I have to take exception with this. I have played the guitar for over 20 years, and I'll tell you that whether composing or improvising, my experience has been precisely the opposite of what you describe above. The most profound and beautiful music is nearly always produced in those moments when you don't know what's going to come out. Who if not the performer should take credit for that music--I'm not sure. > Do people > seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative > wonders of the human ear. No, I'd say that years of practice often go a long away toward opening the possibilities, either instrumentally, or in terms of the ear. Not necessarily, of course. There are plenty of well practiced players who simply recreate what they've practiced when they play, which is quite useful for classical musicians, but usually pretty uninspiring for improvisers. I think most musicians who've improvised would say that they're not completely in control of what comes out of their instrument, no matter how practiced they are. At least I feel sorry for the bored egomaniac who would claim otherwise. -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day. (L. Evangelista) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: Michel Godard Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Godard is also on Misha Mengelberg's newest disk on hatology. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Vanheumen, Robert" Subject: klezmer theory Date: 18 Aug 1998 17:00:50 -0400 hi there i'm looking for a book to learn more about klezmer, that is to say, a book with things like scales, chords, typical klezmer patterns etc; just very dry stuff to practice (mmm)... now i found dozens of books with completely written out klezmer tunes, accompanied by chords, but that is not what i want... i'm just looking for a dry practice book. can anybody help me with a title? thanks very much. robert - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:06:59 -0700 At 03:45 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Marc Downing wrote: >I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does >anyone have any recommendations? Start with _Transmutation_ on Axiom. But you may want to wait for the compilation CD coming out soon on Douglas. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia) Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:09:19 -0700 >I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does >anyone have any recommendations? > >Marc I noticed that Joseph S. Zitt recomends _Transmutations Live_ I would say start with _Transmutations_ This is easy to find in the rock section filed under "P" It's a very funky album w/ Bootsie Collins and Bennie Worral on board. Great shreading from Buckethead. Brain holds it all together. Bill's production is typically "him". If you can find _Sacrifist_ used on CD pick it up. It's a great recording and is extremely raw. BTW, Zorn guests on this one. Happy listening, Doug - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #434 Date: 18 Aug 1998 20:10:34 EDT The MM Scofield-Hunter show should be very good. As for the new MMW album I think it has a place in their discography. If you like move and shake etc. Andrew - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Trey Subject: Weird Little Date: 17 Aug 1998 06:42:37 -0700 [NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so if you want to include him in a discussion, please explicitly include his email address.] Hey, everybody. Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John Zorn as a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not had a falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came out 3 years after the fact) regret having participated in. Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help people in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands. No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there, and so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and just go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back pats for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"... You know, I've been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances - improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is justified by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to produce anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was carried only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up... Noble, but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a musician who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people out there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel? To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off on the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I like the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great performances in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the highest order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration, he is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I see it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely squelched by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the "completists". This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a right to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a weak improv record. Trey - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Williams Subject: [Fwd: SONNY SHARROCK TRIBUTE@KNITTING FACTORY 8/23RE] Date: 18 Aug 1998 22:58:51 -0500 Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock An evening of music "Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock" will be presented in the Knitting Factory's Main Space, 74 Leonard Street between Broadway and Church (six blocks below Canal), on Sunday, August 23rd, 1998 from 8:00 p.m. to midnight. The concert is a benefit for the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation. The community of players with whom Sonny Sharrock broke ground and carried the torch, alongside other players who have been greatly inspired by this innovative guitarist, will gather together for a passionate and heartfelt musical tribute. The evening will feature music that Sonny wrote and recorded over a thirty year span. The list of performers includes Sonny's bandmates Pheeroan akLaff, Lance Carter and Abe Speller (drums), Charles Baldwin, David C. Gross, and Charnett Moffett (bass), John Stubblefield (saxophone), Ted Daniel (trumpet), and several guitarists who have been deeply inspired by his life and music, including Jef Lee Johnson, Robert Musso, Elliott Sharp, Tor Snyder, and James Blood Ulmer. There will also be tributes by family and friends, special messages from such musicians as Roy Ayers, Peter Brotzmann, Ronald Shannon Jackson, and Herbie Mann, and rare video footage of Sonny in concert. Since making his distinctive mark in the early sixties alongside Don Cherry, Miles Davis, Pharoah Sanders, Wayne Shorter and others, Sonny has been an influence for generations of musicians. It was Sonny's desire to expand the vocabulary of the electric guitar and give it the range, tonality and textures that saxophonists such as Albert Ayler and John Coltrane explored through their instruments. Now, more than four years since his death, with his stature and influence continuing to grow, musicians are traveling to New York to offer a highly charged celebration of his musical innovations and his beautiful spirit. "Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock" The Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St. betw. Church St. & Broadway Sunday, August 23rd, 8-midnight Venue information 212-219-3006 x 417 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: Weird Little Date: 18 Aug 1998 20:14:18 -0700 I understand your sentiments exactly-there is a sort of integrity of purpose that separates some works from others. Anyone is capable of minor transgressions.Who hasn't horsed around a little.The WLB cd may be interesting for this fact alone.I don't think I will buy it though, there are too many other good works out there to ignore the opinion of a participant.I personally think that it takes a sort of nobility for you not to attempt to rationalize it at all but perhaps guilt drives you too far to criticize it.What Cobra sessions that you have participated in would you recommend? ---------- > From: Trey > To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Weird Little > Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:42 AM > > > [NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from > Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so > if you want to include him in a discussion, please > explicitly include his email address.] > > > Hey, everybody. > > Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John Zorn as > a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not had a > falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came out 3 > years after the fact) regret having participated in. > > Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help people > in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands. > > > No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there, and > so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and just > go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back pats > for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"... You know, I've > been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances - > improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those > performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is justified > by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to produce > anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was carried > only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up... Noble, > but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a musician > who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people out > there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel? > > To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off on > the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I like > the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great performances > in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the highest > order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration, he > is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I see > it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely squelched > by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the "completists". > This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in > weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a right > to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a weak > improv record. > > Trey > > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Weird Little Date: 18 Aug 1998 23:54:42 EDT Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating? Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Francisco Fonz-Garcés" Subject: Re: Weird Little Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:55:14 +0200 TagYrIt@aol.com wrote: > Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all > of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating? > > Dale. Yes, I am. I have just come back from a trip where I took with me some Zorn´s CDs I´d had no time to listen to (WLB was one of them) and... when I switch my computer on I find a big amount of messages on this topic. WLB is, perhaps, Zorn's recent purchases I´m going to play less; but some phrases are, IMHO, good enough to keep on trying afterwards ("Seance"... although is not representative). Has anybody found a precise relationship beetween the text and the music? I haven´t. Ciao Paco Fonz - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: Miles Davis quote Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:55:09 +0200 > I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did. I did. >> It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he >> said of most '60s avant garde artists... >> >> Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely >> things that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him). >> >> This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of >> this discussion. Yeah, but basically, he dismissed every kind of music except his own (and the music of his companions). He even dismissed Eric Dolphy, but that's probably because Dolphy wouldn't want to play in his band. Nevertheless, Miles' music was very out there, at that time and still today. Read Lee Jeske's liner notes to "Agharta": "Miles always claimed to hate the jazz avantgarde--the only innovations of the post-bebop era that didn't have him at the immediate forefront--but Pete Cosey's first solo, a scratching, clawing bit of funkified noise over Al Foster's Herculean backbeat, is as avant-garde as anything being recorded in 1975. And, as Whitehead pointed out, this band--with its two percussionists and two guitarists and fractured time signatures--sounds remarkably close to Ornette Coleman and Prime Time (especially during Sonny Fortune's soulful alto solo in "Prelude"). But Prime Time wouldn't make its first recordings until the following year." Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:55:08 +0200 Dear Chris, > As to what you do...you say you are a non-musician?Then what are you > doing?! You and Mr.MacGregor seem to believe that I represent some sort of > classical music establishment or something in my definitions of musicians. > A musician is simply one who organises sound for a purpose-expressing with > sound alone (versus language). I also happen to believe that if the > "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not > involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you > didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you > can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the > performer can take credit for. When you make music are you really unaware > of what you are doing-are your musical decisions based on your limited > musical vocabulary or do you free yourself of these constraints by being > ignorant (you said it). Do you think random noise is music?Do people > seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative > wonders of the human ear. That's absurd-keep in mind I'm not saying to > limit yourself to instruments or written music BUT... > You have to know what you're doing. Let me clarify some things, including some of the things you said in other posts regarding this topic. You took many assumptions based on your experiences with non-musicians which, however, aren't that true. First of all, I never said that there's no need to learn an instrument. Musicians who haved learned their instruments and studied them are capable of playing lots of stuff which I'll never be able to do. Well, I wish I could play the guitar like Buckethead, but I can't, and I know that I don't have the endurance to study it long enough to become a "real" guitar player. But creating sound collages is a whole nother thang. Other members of the group *can* play their instruments, and I'm giving certain guidelines, conducting and adding some random noise, unusual percussion and vocalisms to the processings. I can't see why I shouldn't do all of this. Let me quote Marion Brown from his liner notes to "Afternoon of a Georgia Faun": "The music you're listening to is a collective experience involving six players, two vocalists, and three assistants. Although I am responsible for initiating the music, I take no credit for the results. Whatever they may be, it goes to the musicians collectively. The people that I chose to assist are not actually musicians, but people who have a sense of rhythm and melody. My idea here is that it is possible for non-musicians to participate in a musical experience without being technically proficient in a theorerical sense. In the future, I intend to use some non-musicians for the same reasons. It works. Try it sometimes." Second, it it simply nonsense to assume that people like me aren't music lovers, but the opposite (what's the opposite of a music lover?). Music is the highest and purest art for me, but this includes all kinds of music. A lot of "new music" doesn't sound like music, it sounds like sound. So where should you draw the borderline? Third ... you won't believe it, but I have another project running which I'm doing in the home studio I'm currently building up around my PC. The music I create there (and please don't ask me whether I use MusicMaker) has real harmonies, melodies, rhythms ... so I won't claim myself to be a composer, but I'm an arranger, producer, and engineer of sorts ... so would that change my status of non-musician? Right, that's difficult. I'm not sure myself. And fourth ... "being avantgarde" may be cool in our "community", but it's certainly not among others. If I wanted to be cool, I'd pick up a bass, learn it for, say, a year and start in a heavy metal or rock band. I don't intend to say anything against these styles, but that's what the people I know would think is cool. Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200 > Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:08 +0200 > To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: skills > From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) > Let me quote Marion Brown from his liner notes to "Afternoon of a Georgia > Faun": "The music you're listening to is a collective experience involving > six players, two vocalists, and three assistants. Although I am responsible > for initiating the music, I take no credit for the results. Whatever they may > be, it goes to the musicians collectively. The people that I chose to assist > are not actually musicians, but people who have a sense of rhythm and melody. > My idea here is that it is possible for non-musicians to participate in a > musical experience without being technically proficient in a theorerical > sense. In the future, I intend to use some non-musicians for the same reasons. > It works. Try it sometimes." You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I think that this works out bad for music in general and experimental/avantgarde music in particular. Please keep that in mind. >A lot of "new music" doesn't sound like music, it sounds like >sound. So where should you draw the borderline? I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier it's not about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first electronic compositions he had a clear vision of what he wanted and worked out the technology necessary. In modern dance music you now hear many of the sounds created by Stockhausen but I consider these sounds alone less artful than the original sounds. In the visual arts you have the same dilemma with considering childpaintings or works produced by the mentally ill as art. The tendency is not to describe it as such, because in most cases these people aren't familiar with the theoretical/philosophical backgrounds and that's what the institutionalized artworld is all about (read Arthur C. Danto or George Dickie). Jeroen de Boer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yves Dewulf Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:37:02 +0200 From: "J.T. de Boer" > You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music > made by non-musicians to be art? ... Music made by non-musicians ????? If it makes music, it must be a musician a presume (or a recording-device). YVes - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:41:16 +0200 > Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:37:02 +0200 > From: Yves Dewulf > To: J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl > Cc: zorn-list@xmission.com > Subject: Re: skills > From: "J.T. de Boer" > > > You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music > > made by non-musicians to be art? ... > > Music made by non-musicians ????? > If it makes music, it must be a musician a presume (or a > recording-device). Ok Yves, you got me there. Slip of the tongue. I meant sound made by non-musicians. Btw, do you speak dutch? Jeroen > > > YVes > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ScottRussell Subject: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:04:02 +0100 I know this has been covered recently so forgive my repetition but would anyone care to reccomend disc shops in the San Francisco area? I have a friend who will be there in early September. His interests include zorn/improv/experimental/psychedelia etc new and used. Mail me offlist. Thanks in advance. Scott Russell - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Gittelson Subject: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.) Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:05:09 -0700 A few things in SF you might be interested in: Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM) at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs. I experienced this group about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite superb. Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if I have to guess). I found this in today's (Wednesday, August 19, 1998) issue of SF Weekly (Page 36): [Their web page is: http://www.sfweekly.com , and the current link to this mention is at http://www.sfweekly.com/1998/current/riffraff1.html . "Free Ink: Aging teen-ager and SF Weekly cover boy Jonathan Richman will play a Slim's 10th-anniversary party on Saturday, Sept. 19. Co-owner Boz Scaggs starts a 10-day run of celebration concerts with two shows and cake and champagne on Sept. 11. Box Set, Common Sense, Praxis, John Zorn, Mike Patton --who will debut two new pieces--and a few others will also play gigs through Sept. 20." I don't see any details anywhere of the Praxis, Zorn, or Patton shows at this venue, but I will continue to look. I have witnessed Zorn and Patton at this venue previously with Ikue Mori. The show I experienced was pretty good, but I much prefer Yoshi's as a venue (even though it is in Oakland which is quite a hike for me). There is also quite an entertaining/interesting review of last week's Spice Girls show at the SF Weekly site (and in the actual paper), but I will refrain from even mentioning that it exists here as that would not be appropriate. (Chuckle. Discuss amongst yourselves if you like.) Also, for those of you who are interested in or follow the "goings-on" of sampling, copyright law, etc. Check out the latest at http://www.negativland.com . Always interesting to see what they are up to. They are discussing what amounts to possibly censorship of their work and the work of others by the RIAA at present. Further details at their site. -Allen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M. Forrest Lewis" Subject: masada 4 Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0600 i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99). now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20 minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in length? most of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i just wondered if this meant they were all short in play time. this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, it's what i hoped it would be (at least musically). also, i've been offline for a while, but i remember someone saying something about a masada box set. is this in the works or just a rumor? -louie - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert A. Pleshar" Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, Date: 19 Aug 1998 10:17:23 -0500 (CDT) At 08:05 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Allen Gittelson wrote: >A few things in SF you might be interested in: > >Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM) >at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs. Surely you mean Larry Ochs, saxophonist from ROVA. Phil Ochs is lamentably no longer with us. Ralph - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: masada 4 Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT) > i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99). > now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20 > minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in > length? Masada 4 is the "special offer" masada that you sent in proofs-of-purchase to get for free (we could call it the Cereal Offer Masada). It is supposed to be a lot shorter than all the others, though why they are asking an equal price is kinda iffy. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | | | | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | | | | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:28:27 -0700 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200 "J.T. de Boer" wrote: > > I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier it's not > about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories > used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ By saying that you implicitely move the focus from the result (product) to the rethoric surrounding/justifying it. Read any Art publication where the rethoric seems always miles ahead of the final product... You know, when it looks so good on paper and so deceptive when you finally see/listen to the product. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: Masada 10 Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:40:35 PDT Sorry if this has already been posted. Masada 10 showed up in our computer at work this week, with a release date of September 15. Knowing our how these things run, I assume you all know that this is in no way a steadfast date. DB Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: Re: Weird Little Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:42:05 -0400 >Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all >of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating? > >Dale. > >- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: masada 4 Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:29:47 -0400 >>>>> "Louie" == M Forrest Lewis writes: Louie> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was Louie> only $12.99). now the first thing i noticed was the length Louie> of the cd being less than 20 minutes. are the rest of the Louie> masada's short like this or do they vary in length? most Louie> of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i Louie> just wondered if this meant they were all short in play Louie> time. this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, Louie> it's what i hoped it would be (at least musically). Masada 4 was originally a freebie for people who'd bought 1, 2, and 3, and was an EP rather than a full length release. The other Masadas are full length CDs. You can see all the tracks and timings at Patrice's excellent discography at http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.) Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:38:32 -0700 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:05:09 -0700 Allen Gittelson wrote: > > A few things in SF you might be interested in: > > Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM) > at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs. I experienced this group > about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite > superb. Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else > was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if > I have to guess). In fact, I was a little bit disappointed by their show in Portland. Why? simply because Larry Ochs was overbearing. His playing was too powerful most of the time, and as a result, the show ended up to be two trios (the show was in two parts with a break). I would have loved the show to be made of of the possible combinations: solos, duos, and trio. For example, I would have love to listen to Fred and Miya playing in duo, but this did not happen, except for a couple of seconds. And no, I am talking of the usual sound engineer who cannot mix a concert. The problem had nothing to do with mixing. Talking to friends who saw the same band in Vancouver, they were surprised because what I was expecting was what they saw. I guess, it was not the best show of this formation. Patrice (who loves Larry's playing but who would have liked him to shup up once in a while that night :-). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:30:06 -0700 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:04:02 +0100 ScottRussell wrote: > > I know this has been covered recently so forgive my repetition but would > anyone care to reccomend disc shops in the San Francisco area? I have a > friend who will be there in early September. His interests include > zorn/improv/experimental/psychedelia etc new and used. This one is fantastic: Amoeba Music 2455 Telegraph Ave Berkeley, CA 94704 Tel: (510) 549-1125 Fax: (510) 549-1307 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Gittelson Subject: Larry, not Phil (oops) Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:08:03 -0700 Yes, I meant Larry Ochs (though Phil would have been interesting in the mix). My mistake. -Allen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700 At 08:30 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: >This one is fantastic: > > Amoeba Music > 2455 Telegraph Ave > Berkeley, CA 94704 > Tel: (510) 549-1125 > Fax: (510) 549-1307 I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near the park. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: masada 4 Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT) > i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99). > now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20 > minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in > length? Masada 4 is the "special offer" masada that you sent in proofs-of-purchase to get for free (we could call it the Cereal Offer Masada). It is supposed to be a lot shorter than all the others, though why they are asking an equal price is kinda iffy. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | | | | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | | | | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: RE: Skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 12:22:03 -0400 >You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music >made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can >make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who >isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why >should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music >may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to >copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. Ahhh yes, but a person may be able to tell a good story, even if he (or she) can't write it down. While it's anything but detrimental to know your theory, even to know how to play your instrument, you still need creativity to makew it interesting/worthwhile. And, for me, I find that those who are technically proficient and have a vast store of formal musical knowledge BUT are not creative (say, Joe Satriani?) are always less interesting than someone with no musical knowledge, but very creative at getting sounds out of whatever they are using. Of course, the only examples of this I can think of right now are my various artist friends who would pick up a guitar or someother instrument and just start messing around with it. But usually they would get sounds out using some very bizarre technique. Formal music theory is merely the semantics of explaining what you are doing, or attempting to do with a piece of music and/or an instrument. It isn't really required to play something, though it definitely helps. Look at all the early Jazz and blues greats who didn't read a note of music and couldn't explain the theory at all, it just "sounded right". Of course, that could be why the established music world took so long in recognizing them as legitimate forms of music.... -Chris - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:20:43 -0700 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700 Jeff Spirer wrote: > > I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba > has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near > the park. A while, as you can guess. Do you have the address? Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 12:22:53 -0400 (EDT) >You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music >made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can >make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who >isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! I've never seen a movie by someone who couldn't turn on a camera either. It's dangerous to over-emphasize the similarities between the arts in this regard. What aspects of music/sound, literature/writing, or cinema/visuals are pleasant is an empirical, not rational. And may not be the same for different artforms. Most of this debate seems to be the old "don't exclude me from your definition" arguement. As if not having the sound one likes labled "music" matters. It's fun to argue deffinition, but does it reduce the enjoyment of particular sounds should they fall outside the definition. Perhaps people should be state more clearly if they are arguing quality or definition when saying non-musician can or can't make music. In the visual arts >you have the same dilemma with considering childpaintings or works >produced by the mentally ill as art. The tendency is not to >describe it as such, because in most cases these people aren't >familiar with the theoretical/philosophical backgrounds and that's >what the institutionalized artworld is all about (read Arthur C. >Danto or George Dickie). So being familiar with the theories of the institutionalized artworld is required to make art? Obviously there's been a long history of trying remove this world's control over art. matt ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:24:00 -0700 At 09:20 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > >On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700 Jeff Spirer wrote: >> >> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba >> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near >> the park. > >A while, as you can guess. Do you have the address? 1855 Haight St San Francisco, CA 94117-2711 Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:28:27 -0700 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200 "J.T. de Boer" wrote: > > I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier it's not > about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories > used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ By saying that you implicitely move the focus from the result (product) to the rethoric surrounding/justifying it. Read any Art publication where the rethoric seems always miles ahead of the final product... You know, when it looks so good on paper and so deceptive when you finally see/listen to the product. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M. Forrest Lewis" Subject: masada 4 Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0600 i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99). now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20 minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in length? most of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i just wondered if this meant they were all short in play time. this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, it's what i hoped it would be (at least musically). also, i've been offline for a while, but i remember someone saying something about a masada box set. is this in the works or just a rumor? -louie - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: everyone can make music Date: 19 Aug 1998 12:55:48 -0400 > Why is music something *anyone* can make? > Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who > isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why > should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music > may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to > copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I have to disagree with this statement. I remember reading in the liner notes of a Charles Ives record a statement that Leonard Bernstein made which ran, "The problem with minimalism is that anyone can do it." The statement posted above is similar in tone to this statement, which is basically a statement promoting elitism. Bernstein implies that "high art" must exclude the vast majority of the population. His statement says nothing about the quality of the music, only that something anyone can do has some intrinsic problem. The idea, which you voice above, that not everyone can make music, forgets that everyone has hands and voices and creative impulses. With regard to literature, there are works in existence where the writer was "uneducated", where the writer had only a rudimentary knowledge of syntax and grammar, and a coarse vocabulary. For example, this weekend I was at the Chickamauga National Military Park, which is a park on a U.S. Civil War battlefield in Georgia. While I was there I read some published journals of confederate soldiers. These soldiers had no education, misspelled every other word, had no conception of punctuation, much less the theory of the elements of a classical narrative. All the same, those books were brilliant with common sense, humor, and the humility of one who had no control over the actions, which he was ordered to commit day after day for three years. So my point is, just as it is not necessary to be a trained writer to write an insightful, useful, and enjoyable book, so too is it unnecessary to be a trained musician to make music. David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Praxis Tour (was Re: San Francisco...) Date: 19 Aug 1998 10:57:51 -0700 At 08:05 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Allen Gittelson wrote: >"Free Ink: Aging teen-ager and SF Weekly cover boy Jonathan Richman >will play a Slim's 10th-anniversary party on Saturday, Sept. 19. >Co-owner Boz Scaggs starts a 10-day run of celebration concerts with two >shows and cake and champagne on Sept. 11. Box Set, Common Sense, >Praxis, John Zorn, Mike Patton --who will debut two new pieces--and a >few others will also play gigs through Sept. 20." Although details aren't final, this is part of a West Coast tour for Praxis. Here is more info: LA: Sept 19, Troubador SF: Sept 20, Slim's Seattle: Sept 22, venue not ready to be announced Vancouver: After Sept 22, no venue yet Portland: Some possibility of happening on the 21st or after the 22nd. Praxis will be Buckethead, Bill Laswell, Brain, and a DJ to be announced. >There is also quite an entertaining/interesting review of last week's >Spice Girls show at the SF Weekly site (and in the actual paper), but I >will refrain from even mentioning that it exists here as that would not >be appropriate. (Chuckle. Discuss amongst yourselves if you like.) I didn't think this review was nearly as interesting as the Chronicle's, which pointed out that Sporty Spice is called Dykey Spice by some of her fans. I would have expected a semi-"alternative" paper like the Weekly to have given us this tidbit. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vlad-Drac@webtv.net (Theo Klaase) Subject: Heretic Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:19:48 -0500 (CDT) Would someone please Emial me privately and give me a detailed description of Naked City's "Heretic" album. Much thanks. If it would make it easier, I have all the other Naked City records. (if it can compare) -Theo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Bosanko Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #443 -Reply Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:31:35 -0400 >I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does >anyone have any recommendations? Sacrifist is my Fav Praxis Album and gets my utmost reccomendation Eric - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: thanks Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:41:19 -0400 Thanks for the many Praxis recommendations. Marc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.) Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Will Phil Ochs be playing guiatr when he appears with Masaoka and Frith? It seems to me his live appearance have been pretty sparse since the early 1980s. There but for fortune... Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Allen Gittelson wrote: > A few things in SF you might be interested in: > > Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM) > at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs. I experienced this group > about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite > superb. Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else > was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if > I have to guess). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: skills Date: 19 Aug 1998 23:42:12 +0200 > You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music > made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can > make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who > isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why > should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music > may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to > copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I think > that this works out bad for music in general and > experimental/avantgarde music in particular. Please keep that in > mind. I see and understand your point, but you got me wrong. I (and Marion Brown in his quote) was talking about the participation of non-musicians, which includes the participation of (trained) musicians as well. Brown says he had 6 players, 2 vocalists and 3 assistants = non-musicians. In my band, I am the only one who can't play, but I'm doing all the arranging, conducting, and I'm also seeking out ways to contribute sound like tape, samples or something like that. The question whether something is art or not is really hard. "But, ahhh, shouldn't there be some kind of structure?" (No prizes for guessing where this quote comes from.) This weekend, my sister visited me and took place behind my drum set, started banging around and screamed. I started screaming too. That, of course, wasn't art. We didn't follow any purpose, except to have fun. But when I'm "playing" with the musicians of my band, I have prepared concepts, we're trying out musical ideas and are actually quite serious about what we do. I don't know whether it's art, but since there's some effort behind this (in preparation and in execution) I just don't like people to dismiss it as something everybody could do (if they could do it, why don't they?). Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: RE: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:46:53 -0700 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Spirer > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:05 AM > I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba > has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight > Street near > the park. Slim pickings for used Zorn right now; just came back from there this afternoon empty-handed (well, I did come back with the new Bettie Serveert). (There were used copies of "The Art of Memory," "Locus Solus" and "Yankees" lying around, though.) Later, Ben np: eric dolphy, "something sweet, something tender" http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/ ICQ# 12832406 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith McMullen" Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.) Date: 19 Aug 1998 19:10:52 -0700 FWIW, Larry Ochs was anything but overbearing at the LA show. Masaoka plays the most gorgeous koto I've ever seen and is a delight of delights to watch. And Frith was absolutely stunning. Oh how he can use the strangest techniques to make brilliantly crafted and beautiful music. Take something to toss at Ochs if he returns from the dead or plays too much or too loud, but by all means go. Keith McMullen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list. Date: 20 Aug 1998 01:21:47 EDT there is no place for any of us to judge others. If the artist has an intention, and by some means creates that, or something he finds to be equally valid, he will use it. If the artist finds the work to be shit, i doubt it will be used. Another point is, art shouldn't be judged by the artists who made it, or how it was made, but on the art itself. This is the only way we can truly see the art, of course if we are looking for the exact meaning, we might want to look to the artist. Another issue of art is why it is created. Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of aesthetic levels. even if someone is playing 1930's swing in modern times, we can trace everything to questions like, Why is music from the past still valid now? If we go back to the 1930's we can ask, how did this society encouarge the evolution of this style? Because for the most part, Artists live in society, and if not the artists, the art certainly does. I have countless people who i have tried to turn on to john zorn. And to nit- pick on which of his pieces are valid, or anyone's pieces are valid, is a waste of time, because the larger part of the world isn't listening :) I don't mean to sound angry in anyway, i just sort of hoped that my ideas might help clear things up. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: RE: Shopping in San Fran Date: 19 Aug 1998 23:45:16 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Benito Vergara wrote: > Slim pickings for used Zorn right now; just came back from there this > afternoon empty-handed (well, I did come back with the new Bettie Serveert). i've found the Berkeley store to be better for jazz selection. too, the prices in Berkeley are significantly cheaper. it's not surprising. everything in SF is artificially high. Amoeba is just going with the flow. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list. Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:13:24 -0400 This point: >art shouldn't be judged by the artists who >made it, or how it was made, but on the art itself. may contradict this point: >Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of >aesthetic levels. unless you believe that artists must, by necessity and by intention, be lenses for viewing a culture rather than an individual. I'm unprepared to accept that either is absolutely true. >Because for the most part, Artists live in >society, and if not the artists, the art certainly does. So do you. So do I. So does our criticism. >i just sort of hoped that my ideas might help >clear things up. Ideas like these are fascinating, but muckier than Lake Erie in spring. Marc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: everyone can make music Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:59:33 +0200 > From: "J.T. de Boer" > > Why is music something *anyone* can make? > > The language of music > > may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to > > copy it and then say it's possible for anyone to make music. > > I have to disagree with this statement. I remember reading in the > liner notes of a Charles Ives record a statement that Leonard Bernstein > made which ran, "The problem with minimalism is that anyone can do it." > The statement posted above is similar in tone to this statement, which > is basically a statement promoting elitism. No it's not. I hate being called an elitist because I have certain ideas about music, plus I disagree with Berstein that minimalism is something anyone can do. Of course there are people who take the idea of minimalist music (by hearing minimal music) and produce a composition based on the parameters of minimalism, but I make a distinction between people who can't work out an idea by themselves and people who use the example to generate individual ideas/compositions. I admit this is almost impossible to distinguish but it's the theoretical idea I have. In this case people who can't play an instrument can be good composers and vice versa. > Bernstein implies that > "high art" must exclude the vast majority of the population. He's wrong. Art in general creates a distinction in a sociological sense. I don't think art must be used to distinct, it's the inevitable result of the being of art. > His statement > says nothing about the quality of the music, only that something anyone > can do has some intrinsic problem. The idea, which you voice above, that > not everyone can make music, forgets that everyone has hands and voices > and creative impulses. So someone who has a pair of legs, a pair of arms and a body plus a creative idea about dancing can dance? I don't believe that theory (but of course there are exceptions as in the book-example you mention). I strongely believe that there are people who have *creative impulses* that are musically more valuable than other peoples ideas. I say *musically*, because I DO think that the less valuable ideas can be called music also, but we're making value-judgements now and that's a completely other discussion. Regards, Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: everyone can make music Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:13:36 -0500 (CDT) On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, J.T. de Boer wrote: > So someone who has a pair of legs, a pair of arms and a body plus a > creative idea about dancing can dance? Undeniably. Whether another person might be interested in watching that person dance is an entirely different, and only distantly related question. - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith McMullen" Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list. Date: 20 Aug 1998 07:18:56 -0700 <> Sure there is. There are a lot of places from which to judge others and their ideas and their art. Just making the above statement is a rather significant judgment in and of itself. What's wrong with discussing judgements and debating them? Aren't we just pretending when we say we don't have judgments, especially when it comes to our individual attitudes towards and appreciation of music? Keith - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith McMullen" Subject: Re: everyone can make music Date: 20 Aug 1998 07:26:52 -0700 <> The whole 'elitist' argument is bogus. As soon as someone calls someone 'elitist' they are comitting the same act they are accusing the alleged 'elitist' of. They are saying their idea or opinion as a 'non-elitist' is higher or better or more accurate than the opinion of the 'elitist' and in so doing are contradicting themselves. Ken Wilber writes eloquently on this point and on the nature of hierarchy (nee holarchy) in his book 'Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality' which may provide a very nice model for discussing the different levels of music. np: Kenny G. Keith - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list. Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:42:27 -0500 Orangejazz wrote: >there is no place for any of us to judge others. Oh, of course there is. Humans evolved to judge and differentiate, including judging other people and their work. Your argument only holds water if you bring in some religious imperative against judgment delivered from on high, in which case argument becomes futile. > If the artist has an intention, and by some means creates that, or something >he finds to be equally valid, he will use it. If the artist finds the work to >be shit, i doubt it will be used. Yeah, we should be so lucky. You vastly underestimate humans' capacity for cynical manipulation (he said, cynically). Have you turned on the TV in the last 30 years? Oh, you might say, but that's not art! Well, who are you to judge that? TV sitcoms are certainly an art-form, even if 99%+ are god-awful. Is it that unreasonable to pass judgment that "The Simpsons" is several orders of magnitude "greater" than [pick your show]? Do you think the creators of "The Love Boat" (thus risking the wrath of the rare JZ/Love Boat fan) were under the delusion that they were creating anything other than a piece of shit? Do you think Kenny G is? Exactly where along the line from Mr. Guralnik to Mr. Zorn do you decide that it becomes "art"? (snip) > Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of >aesthetic levels. I really hope you meant "as a" instead of "for". If not, I think you're way, way off base. >I have countless people who i have tried to turn on to john zorn. And >to nit- pick on which of his pieces are valid, or anyone's pieces are >valid, is a waste of time, because the larger part of the world isn't >listening :) So, we should only discuss and criticize the Spice Girls? Brian (who thinks Scary Spice is the prettiest) Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William York Subject: New Don Byron Date: 20 Aug 1998 12:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Anyone else got this? I think it's awesome, similar to the title trk. on Tuskeegee EXp with Sadiq narrating, but I have rarely heard such a good and musical combination of this type of semi-spoken delivery w/ actual well playedand written music. Even if you profram out the spoken parts , there are still 60 min left nearly all excellent, and surprising that Blue Note put something so non-lame out. WY - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list. Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:26:39 -0400 (EDT) >Orangejazz wrote: > >>there is no place for any of us to judge others. > >Oh, of course there is. Humans evolved to judge and differentiate, including >judging other people and their work.Your argument only holds water if you >bring in some religious imperative against judgment delivered from on high, in >which case argument becomes futile. As a biological-anthro major I heard a lot of wacky theories explaining how and why humans evolved, but this is new. We also evoloved separation of work by sex, but this has rightly fallen into disrepute of late (in theory if not practice so much). There are a number of cognitive/logical arguements we, as humans, make that have no firm grounding. I would turn your argument around and say the only way we can judge is if the rules of such judgment are delivered from above. You can decide not to like something, come up with very interesting and informative, though ultimately arbitrary, arguments to explain this dislike. You could even form whole schools of these critera, and as long as the rules are well understood, the judgements would be valid. But still arbitrary, or at least not necessitated. >Is it that unreasonable to pass judgment that "The Simpsons" is several orders >of magnitude "greater" than [pick your show]? Do you think the creators of >"The >Love Boat" (thus risking the wrath of the rare JZ/Love Boat fan) were >under the >delusion that they were creating anything other than a piece of shit? I think the creators of "The Simpsons" play upon the pseudo-rebellious tastes of its target audience to the same degree as those of the "Love Boat" (not that this statement does not imply either are cyncial). It's just that their target is young, urban(e) and hip. And at least the latter has the straight forward honesty to be all shmarmy about the wonder of love etc...while "The Simpsons" comes off as tired, hip and cynical and comes to the same conclusions. matt, who learned much of the flora and fauna of Australia from a Love Boat special, but little from The Simpsons. Yet still watches The Simpsons far more. ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Re: everyone can make music Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:44:22 -0400 Keith McMullen writes: >The whole 'elitist' argument is bogus. As soon as someone calls someone >'elitist' they are comitting the same act they are accusing the alleged >'elitist' of. They are saying their idea or opinion as a 'non-elitist' is >higher or better or more accurate than the opinion of the 'elitist' and in >so doing are contradicting themselves. This statement is sophistry. All of us know have encountered an elitist situation at some time and are fully capable of identifying it as elitism. To recognize a person as an elitist is not an elitist act, just as acknowledging that a person is a racist is not a racist act. Your statement is a textbook example of the common inability to distinguish between an intellectual observation and personal judgment based on the observation. To identify a person as an elitist is different from condemning or praising the person for the elitist act (and thus participating in elitism oneself). This post has nothing to do with the original musical discussion, but I felt inclined to argue that "The whole 'elitist' argument is not bogus." David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re[2]: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list. Date: 20 Aug 1998 14:18:43 -0500 I wrote: >> Humans evolved to judge and differentiate, including judging other people >>and their work.Your argument only holds water if you bring in some religious >>imperative against judgment delivered from on high, in which case argument >>becomes futile. you replied: >As a biological-anthro major I heard a lot of wacky theories explaining >how and why humans evolved, but this is new. Hi Matt, I may have been less than clear, but I didn't mean to imply that these were the _only_ reasons humans evolved, but these qualities were certainly opted for. Early humans, for example, needed to judge the differences in fruit to determine which were poisonous and which not (or which were more or less healthy, sweet, etc.). Judgmental abilities were in high demand when complete information was lacking. Similarly, the ability to read gestures, facial expressions etc. in otherwise unknown humans would, I think, be quite beneficial to an individual's chances of survival and would've been strongly opted for. Eventually, I imagine (I'm no former bio-anthro major so I defer to your um, judgment, if this is off-base), one's differential ability was used to judge whose sandals looked better-made and whose icon was likelier to protect the family tent. From there to art critics... My point was simply that judging and evaluating everything, including art, seems to me an innately human attribute. And not, necessarily, a bad one. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list Date: 20 Aug 1998 11:43:45 -0700 "Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of aesthetic levels." I'm not exactly sure what you mean here...(reflection "on" maybe?) but you seem to be saying that one form of judgement is "valid" and the other is not. Rather than proscribing criticism you seem to be establishing a new criterion upon which all works may be judged. Example... " Artists live in society, and if not the artists, the art certainly does." "Why is music from the past still valid now?"... "how did this society encouarge the evolution of this style?" I have reversed the order of your comments but I don't believe that I have changed the meaning by doing so. You seem to be saying that music can be considered (judged?) against the relationship of the artist's work to society. Is a work without the proper cultural context for it's existence a "valid" one? You also seem to be assuming that society is the catalyst for artistic change. I believe however that an artist creates an atmosphere for artistic revolution..how else can we explain resistance? But whether symbols influence a culture or culture influences symbols...I don't know. "Another issue of art is why it is created" Then you have given us another criterion for criticism. If art has a "why" then if that "why" is not satisfied it must be invalid. For criticism to be invalid, artistic endeavour has to be completely motiveless. "If the artist finds the work to be shit, I doubt it will be used." And what if it is? Are we still unable to judge? You have again implied that there are standards for judging art. I don't really see the difference between creator judgement and witness judgement if art "exists for the reflection of society" I don't have the space to finish attacking what you thought would "clear everything up". Forgive the vitriol but thats pretty arrogant. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike_Chamberlain@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Mike Chamberlain) Subject: Re: New Don Byron Date: 20 Aug 1998 19:03:07 GMT William York,wyork@email.unc.edu,Internet writes: >Anyone else got this? I think it's awesome, similar to the title trk. on >Tuskeegee EXp with Sadiq narrating, but I have rarely heard such a good >and musical combination of this type of semi-spoken delivery w/ actual >well playedand written music. Even if you profram out the spoken parts , >there are still 60 min left nearly all excellent, and surprising that Blue >Note put something so non-lame out. I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album. Nobody can accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure. It's already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote). I'll bet the album gets more bad than good reviews, but I like what I have heard of it. Both the music and the poetry stand up. --Mike WY - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: New Don Byron Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:02:23 -0700 On 20 Aug 1998 19:03:07 GMT Mike Chamberlain wrote: > > I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album. Nobody can > accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure. It's > already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote). ^^^^ Amos cares about Byron? I thought he was only annoyed at Peter Brotzmann and Evan Parker :-). Patrice (who's missing the fun). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: campax Subject: Pizza, mandolini e mamma Date: 20 Aug 1998 23:21:20 +0200 Curiosity killed the cat, I know : Is there any italian, or italilian speaking, on this list? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Claudio Koremblit" Subject: Experimenta en internet Date: 20 Aug 1998 22:28:17 -0300 Desde hoy el ciclo porte=F1o de musicas experimentales de todo el mundo, Experimenta, tiene su pagina en la red, con la informacion de los musicos que se presentaran durante el a=F1o, ensayos, biografias, fotos, y en poc= o tiempo mas se agregara la informacion de los artistas que participaron=20 en el 97 y los que lo haran en el futuro. Mucha de esta informacion esta por primera vez en castellano en la red. Los musicos argentinos=20 participantes no estaban representados en este medio. Desde el 12 de septiembre se transmitira en vivo por la red. Cualquier propuesta o sugerencia sera bienvenida. Since today Experimenta, experimental music series from all over the worl= d in Buenos Aires, have a web site on internet, with information about the musicians that will make presentations during the 98, essays, bios, pictures, and some time more later will have the information about 97 and the future. Mostly of this information became to the internet for the first time in spanish. The argentinian musicians don't have other sites on line. Since september 12 will transmite the performances on internet. Some proposal or suggestion will be grateful. http://www.datamarkets.com.ar/experimenta experimenta@datamarkets.com.ar - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sundberg Subject: Links Date: 20 Aug 1998 20:41:39 -0600 Does anybody know some good Zorn or Naked City links? I've been to tzadik.com, and that is great, but I want all I can get. \mOONS/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: numbat@vianet.net.au (Sibree/Wilkes) Subject: Auction - Free jazz/avant garde LPs Date: 21 Aug 1998 18:29:24 +0800 List members might be interested in my latest auction list posted to rec.music.marketplace.vinyl under the heading of NUMBAT JAZZ AUCTION LIST 5 - MOSTLY FREE JAZZ/AVANT GARDE. Alternatively, email for details. Please note my computer will not be in operation between 23 and 27 August. Billy - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:37:27 +0200 > I have reversed the order of your comments but I don't believe that I have > changed the meaning by doing so. You seem to be saying that music can be > considered (judged?) against the relationship of the artist's work to > society. Is a work without the proper cultural context for it's existence > a "valid" one? I discussed this with a friend yesterday, and in the case of music it's difficult to find out in which case music is relevant: sociological/philosophical/music-theoretical. What's the meaning of a certain work? Music it's the most abstract artform there is, so grasping the meaning of a work seems to be most valid (or better said, the slightest abstract approach) when being familiar with the sociological background of the musician/composer or the world surrounding him. Popular music-criticism is almost totally based on this view. In the case of "serious music" this sociological point of view isn't as dominant as in the popular music domain, because theoretical analysis of the work itself is largely the basis of judgement. But because of the complexity of the musical language it's almost impossible to judge a work only on this language. > You also seem to be > assuming that society is the catalyst > for artistic change. I believe however that an artist creates an atmosphere > for artistic revolution..how else can we explain resistance? > "Another issue of art is why it is created" > > Then you have given us another criterion for criticism. If art has a "why" > then if that "why" is not satisfied it must be invalid. For criticism to be > invalid, artistic endeavour has to be completely motiveless. There are art-theories that contend the argument that artists work with an artistic system, a model that justifies a work. Now (postmodern society) it's precisely the time to use these systems to judge works of art, because nearly every artist seems to have his own artistic language. The problem with this theory is the fact whether an artist really works with this model. A lot of artists only give meaning to their work after completion, or give a meaning only to make a work more valid in terms of criticism. Judging works on this ground is only possible when you know an artist is really working with such a system. Jeroen de Boer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: everyone can make music Date: 21 Aug 1998 16:10:45 +0200 David Keffer wrote: > With regard to literature, there are works in existence where the > writer was "uneducated", where the writer had only a rudimentary > knowledge of syntax and grammar, and a coarse vocabulary. All the same, those books were > brilliant with common sense, humor, and the humility of one who had > no control over the actions, which he was ordered to commit day > after day for three years. > > So my point is, just as it is not necessary to be a trained writer > to write an insightful, useful, and enjoyable book, so too is it > unnecessary to be a trained musician to make music. > > David K. I wrote: > < ideas about music>> From which position do you judge these works then? You compare my opinion about not mastering the language of music with your jugements on not mastering the language of literature. You have to pay attention to keep in mind where these creators plus the people who judge come from. In your case first there is a substantial gap between the time of creation and the time of judgement and second a totally different sociological background. My judgement is completely based on contemporary music (whether it's popular or non-popular) and on contemporary criticism. I don't deny the fact that a work which is produced by someone who isn't capable to play with the relevant artistic language can't be interesting/humourous etc, but I don't say it's art. The books in your example I don't consider as literature when judged with contemporay parameters, but as an historican I maybe *can* see it as literature. This argument I can basically use in my opinion about not judging certain " forms of sound" as music/art. I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering music as art. Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William York Subject: Re: New Don Byron Date: 21 Aug 1998 11:10:35 -0400 (EDT) > > I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album. Nobody can > > accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure. It's > > already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote). > ^^^^ > Amos cares about Byron? I thought he was only annoyed at Peter Brotzmann and > Evan Parker :-). > > Patrice (who's missing the fun). I don't know anything about rmb or Amos but I know this is the kind of album that would annoy precisely the right people I would like it to. I mean, I don't agree with all of "Furman", the last song, but its good to not agree with everything I think. I feel like people, even conservative jazz fans, are more comfortable with the supposed "socio-political implications" of Charles Gayle, for example, or other folks who are so far on the margins that its like they're screaming into the wilderness, rather than someone like D.B. who has a more visible, direct approach. I think in this way D.B. is more challenging to people's preconceptions, so I would expect criticisms. (he has a lot in common with J.Z. and Ken Vandermark for ex. who 'have it together', and they all 3 seem to catch more crap than the avg. poor as dirt free jazz player). Nothing against Charles Gayle, no offense meant to his fans (Of whom I am not one for what its worth). William York - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 21 Aug 1998 11:20:41 -0400 J.T. de Boer wrote: >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering >music as art." You have switched our argument from "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians make music inferior in various artistic qualities to the music made by trained musicians." These statements are two entirely different statements. We were only discussing the first statement. In order to discuss the second statement we must first agree that your scale of "gradation in considering music as art" exists. Of course, there are many people who don't believe there is any substance to an arbitrary value system assigned by one segment of the population that ranks one form of art/music/lit as "esthetically superior" to another. I am one of them. So, I don't think we have a common ground to discuss the new topic. But......since I am a son of a bitch who just likes to argue, let me pretend that I do believe that art/music/lit can be ranked in terms of merit, that it can put into various gradations of an undefined "goodness". Let me use a different sort of hypothetical example. Surely you will not say that there is a direct correspondence between the skill of the musician and the "merit" (for lack of a better word) of the music. If we lived in a world of Olympics-style scales, and if we gave a musician a score of 5 (on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a non-musician, and 10 being a virtuoso) in terms of instrument proficiency, that doesn't mean that we will give his music also an "art factor" of 5 (on a 1-to-10) scale. A musician with a lower instrument proficiency ranking could very well create a piece of music with a higher art factor than that of a musician of high instrument proficiency. (I think you must agree with this. There are examples of uninspired performances by virtuosos all over and uninspired compositions by virtuosos.) In that case, since we have established the existence of such a discrepancy in our two scales, we imply that it is possible for a non-musician (low instrument proficiency score) to create a piece of high compositional merit. I'm not saying it is done every day but I am saying it is possible and that it has been done. This argument I think illustrates that "Not only can non-musicians can make music but it is possible for non-musicians to make music of equal or superior quality to that of trained musicians." David "Art Factor" K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 21 Aug 1998 08:57:06 -0700 On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:20:41 -0400 David Keffer wrote: > > J.T. de Boer wrote: > >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering > >music as art." > You have switched our argument from > "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians > make music inferior in various artistic qualities to > the music made by trained musicians." It is fairly common knowledge that when people talk about things and put them in two boxes (such as "good" and "bad"), this has to be interpreted as a continuum of values ranging from "bad" to "good", with, in the middle a region where you keep your judgement for yourself :-). It is common, in the fire of an argument, and based on economy principles, to project a complex problem with many degrees of freedom (such as aesthetic value in art) on a single line with ordering properties, and, to avoid boring your audience, finally down to two alternatives: pretty/ugly, good/bad, smart/stupid, etc. It does not mean that the person using the binary reduction of the complex problem is naive to the point of believing it literaly. It is just a commodity of language. I guess J.T. de Boer realized that this simple evidence about the most elementary rule of rethoric was still escaping some :-). Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vlad-Drac@webtv.net (Theo Klaase) Subject: Help Wanted Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:43:16 -0500 (CDT) I have and enjoy the following: Naked City(self titled) Radio, Black Box Zorn - Filmworks 1,3,5,6,and 8 a few others but this is my favorite stuff. Could someone Email Me privately on some recomendations. Something along the lines of the above albums....Thanks -Theo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keffer Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:52:39 -0400 Patrice L. Roussel wrote: >...It does not mean that the person using the binary reduction of the >complex problem is naive to the point of believing it literaly. It >is just a commodity of language. >I guess J.T. de Boer realized that this simple evidence about the >most elementary rule of rethoric was still escaping some You speak of the "good/bad binary reduction" but the two statements in question deal with two different reductions. One is the music/non-music binary choice. The second statement implies the good music/bad music binary choice. I think, especially in the arena of experimental music, that these two reductions are distinct. David K. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "m. rizzi" Subject: zorn-list Info Sheet (LONG) Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:57:12 -0700 (PDT) The John Zorn Mailing List Subscriber Information 9 July 1998 [NOTE: Please save a copy of this message for later reference] ABOUT THE ZORN LIST The Zorn list was created so that fans of John Zorn and his MANY projects could come together and chat about the man and his music...Naked City, Masada, Painkiller, etc..... Also discussed on this list, are: Bill Laswell, Bill Frisell, Elliott Sharp, Bobby Previte, Wayne Horvitz, Zeena Parkins, Knitting Factory roster artists, Joey Baron, Last Exit posse, and any other downtown NYC connected musicians. GENERAL Message Topics: Please keep the topics of your messages relevant to the subject of the mailing list. FAQ: There is a list of frequently asked questions on the zorn-list available on the web at http://www.browbeat.com/zornlist/faq.html Please read the FAQ when you first subscribe to avoid asking a question that has already been discussed, ad nauseum. Courtesy: To make this mailing list useful for the greatest number of people, please treat your fellow list members with courtesy. Please refrain from actions that would detract from the value of the list for other members. Related Websites: The fine folks at WNUR have a created a web page for John Zorn which contains links to all of the known Zorn related websites. The WNUR page can be found at http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/ CONTACTING THE LIST ADMINISTRATOR (aka HUMAN CONTACT) If you need assistance, have comments or suggestions, do not hesitate to contact the list owner, Mike Rizzi (that's me) at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com SENDING MESSAGES TO THE ZORN LIST You must a member of the zorn list before you can post messages to the mailing list (see HOW TO SUBSCRIBE section below for more info). To post to the list, send your mail to zorn-list@lists.xmission.com which will then distribute your words of wit and wisdom to all the current members of the list. IMPORTANT NOTE: You MUST send your messages FROM the computer account you used to subscribe to the list, otherwise the message will bounce to me and not be sent to the other subscribers. This feature prevents our list from being "spammed" with unwanted junk mail from non-subscribers. SECOND IMPORTANT NOTE: When sending a copy of private email to the list, please make sure that you remove the email headers. Not doing so has the unfortunate side effect of breaking the digest. SIMPLE TEXT ONLY Please only post messages with simple (ASCII) text, anything else can cause your prose to be interspersed with funny symbols like ^t and =20 when read by others. Also, not everyones mail readers can display MIME files and special characters (curly apostrophes and quotes, accent marks, etc.). European and Mac users take special note here. ATTACHING FILES Please don't attach files to messages posted to the Zorn mailing list. Paste in the relevant text if it's a reasonable size, provide a URL where it's available, or send the file by private mail. MESSAGE LENGTH Please limit messages to 7K in size. Messages larger than that will automatically go to the list owner for approval at their leisure. Heh. REPLYING TO MESSAGES ON THE LIST If you reply to someone on the list, it will only go to that person unless you explicitly add zorn-list@xmission.com to the To: or Cc: fields of your mail message header. QUOTING IN A REPLY MESSAGE A good message does not contain the entire text of the message to which it's responding; only the relevant parts (usually a single sentence or sentence fragment) should be included. Do not quote an entire message or an entire paragraph unless it's absolutely necessary. There's an enormous amount of traffic on the xmission.com mailing lists; please do your share to cut down the load by quoting effectively (especially since xmission is hosting us gratis!). Trimmed messages also keep the digests and archives neat, tidy and easy-to-read. Digest subsribers will thank you. By far the best reply simply refers to the message author and a one-sentence description of the subject; for example, "John Doe asked about Masada 9." If you think it's necessary to quote portions of the previous message, include only the portions that are really essential. Remove the previous authors signature line. Only quote/attribute (>) enough to give context to your reply. DON'T QUOTE 100 LINES OF TEXT, THEN POST A 2 LINE COMMENT. SUBJECT LINES A good message always uses a meaningful subject line. This helps you and other members of the list, since many members only read selected messages based on the subject. As a result, messages without a subject line or with vague subjects like "Help needed" may get less response. If you have a digest subscription, you should always change the subject line in your replies from the original digest subject, which looks like this: "Zorn List Digest V2 # XXX". HOW TO SWITCH FROM INDIVIDUAL MESSAGES TO A DIGEST The Zorn mailing list sends out messages as they are received (aka "regular mail" aka "real-time mode") in order to facilitate discussion and allow for timely notice of upcoming shows. If you prefer to receive a digest form of the Zorn mailing list (one email for every bunch of messages), then send an email (the Subject line is ignored) to majordomo@xmission.com with the message text subscribe zorn-list-digest unsubscribe zorn-list end HOW TO SWITCH FROM A DIGEST TO INDIVIDUAL MESSAGES Send an email (the Subject line is ignored) to majordomo@xmission.com with the message text subscribe zorn-list unsubscribe zorn-list-digest end HOW TO SUBSCRIBE To subscribe to the Zorn mailing list send an email message (the Subject line is ignored) to majordomo@xmission.com with a message text of either subscribe zorn-list or subscribe zorn-list-digest You will receive a confirmation request message that you must reply to, following the instructions in that message. When the list server has received your confirmation reply, you will be sent a list subscription confirmation and a welcome message containing further helpful information. If you need assistance, contact the mailing list administrator zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE To unsubscribe from the Zorn mailing list send an email message (the Subject line is ignored) to majordomo@xmission.com with a message text of either unsubscribe zorn-list or unsubscribe zorn-list-digest ARCHIVES Back issues of digests and monthly archives are available via anonymous FTP at: ftp.xmission.com: /pub/lists/zorn-list/archive or via your favorite web browser at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive IF YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS CHANGES Your e-mail address may change for many reasons, including: * You change ISPs or employers. * Your ISP or company changes their e-mail software. * You change e-mail software on your computer. * You change your ID with an online service. If your address changes for any reason, you should unsubscribe your old address and resubscribe your new address. If you are unable to unsubscribe your old address, contact the list administrator. That's the best way to be certain you'll be able to post messages and sign off in the future without assistance. IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO POST MESSAGES OR SEND COMMANDS If your e-mail provider or mail system administrator makes changes to their system or you change e-mail programs, the address your messages appear to come from may change. A common example is when user@SOMEPLACE.COM becomes user@MAIL.SOMEPLACE.COM. That will prevent the majordomo list server from recognizing you and accepting your messages. In this case, you will have to unsubscribe your old address, and resubscribe with your new address. IF YOU RECEIVE MAIL DELIVERY FAILURE NOTICES If you receive a message saying that a message you just posted to a list could not be delivered, that usually means a problem in some other list member's mail. If you receive a copy of your own message back from the list, you can be sure that your message was sent to the other list members. When you receive such a delivery error message, please forward it to the List Administrator. That way the problem can be corrected so other members don't receive the same error when they post messages. YOU MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE LIST A variety of problems can cause messages to fail to reach you. Errors encountered can include full mailbox, user unknown, unable to locate your domain, unable to contact your mail server, and many others. Most of these are temporary errors that quickly go away. Others are permanent problems that cannot be corrected. Sending messages that cannot be received by the list member wastes resources. If errors are reported that indicate you are unable to receive messages from the list, or if you cannot receive messages from the list, you will be removed from the list. If you are removed from the list, a notice will be sent to you periodically by the majordomo mail list server telling you that you were removed from the list and need to resubscribe. VACATIONS AND OUT-OF-OFFICE AUTO-REPLIES If you won't be checking your mail for more than a few days, you should consider switching to a digest subscription or stopping the list messages entirely during that time. Otherwise, your mailbox could fill up during your absence. Besides being a nuisance when you return, this can cause you to miss important messages. The "mailbox full" errors will also cause you to be removed from the list, as described in the previous section YOU MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE LIST. If you use any form of auto-reply message, particularly the automated out-of-office messages supported by some e-mail systems, and you receive individual messages from the mailing list, your auto-reply messages may be sent to everyone who posts a message to the mailing list during your absence. Auto-reply messages may be treated as errors and you may be removed from the list. SIGNATURE BLOCKS Distinctive signature blocks are a tradition on the Internet, but on the Zorn list we ask members to keep the signature shorter than the message as a courtesy to other members. Ideally, signatures should not exceed a few lines. Large ASCII graphics are particularly distracting and unacceptable. The most important part of the posting should be your message, not your signature. MESSAGES IN LANGUAGES OTHER THAN ENGLISH The mailing list is international, and it is important to assist people who don't read and write English as long as we can do so without disrupting the list. Also, we shouldn't be hypercritical and nitpicking of list members language skills. However, it's best if messages can be posted in English simply so the largest number of people can participate in the discussions. It's strictly a pragmatic issue. French speaking fans of creative avant-garde improv music may be interested in the Fennec mailing list. For more information, please visit their website at http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr/ NETIQUETTE Here are a few tips on netiquette: DON'T send lines longer than 75 characters. This is a kindness to folks who have terminal-based mail editors. Some mail gateways truncate extra characters, turning your deathless prose into gibberish. Some mail editors seem to insert line breaks for you but actually don't, so every paragraph turns into one immense line. Learn what your mail editors do by mailing a message to yourself and reading the message in several mail readers. Most mail programs will let you read your message in a plain, vanilla form, the way others will see it. DON'T SEND A MESSAGE IN ALL CAPS. CAPITALIZED MESSAGES ARE HARDER TO READ THAN LOWERCASE OR MIXED-CASE MESSAGES. DO use normal capitalization. Separate your paragraphs with blank lines. Make your message inviting to your potential readers. DON'T betray confidences. It's all too easy to mistakenly quote a personal message in a message to the entire group. DO read the "To:" and "Cc:" lines in your message before you send it. Are you sure you want the message to go there? DO treat every post as though you were sending a copy to your boss, your minister, and your worst enemy. DON'T rely on the ability of your readers to tell the difference between serious statements and satire or sarcasm. It's hard to write humor. It's even harder to write satire. DO remember that no one can hear your tone of voice. Use emoticons (or smileys) like :-) or ;^) and tilt your head counterclockwise to see the smile. You can also use capitalization for emphasis or Usenet conventions for italics and underlined text. DON'T put a huge signature at the bottom of your messages. DO exercise some restraint. Remember that a large number of mail editors out there are set up to use proportional fonts, and your lovely ASCII art won't look the way you designed it on those readers. Remember also that there's a Usenet newsgroup out there whose sole function is to make fun of people's signatures. DON'T send a message that says nothing but "Me, too." Ditto for "I don't know." DO recall that you aren't obligated to reply to everything you read. Remember the immortal words of Martin Farquhar Tupper (1810-1889): "Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech." NOTE TO USERS OF MICROSOFT EXCHANGE, OUTLOOK, OR WINDOWS MESSAGING Users of Microsoft Exchange or other RTF-capable e-mail clients may be accustomed to formatting e-mail messages using colors, italics, different fonts, and other features to emphasize portions of their messages. Not every subscriber uses e-mail software that interprets messages formatted using RTF. To make list postings readable by the entire list membership, please follow these procedures: If you use a Personal or System Address Book entry to write to a list, be sure to clear the "Always send to this recipient in Microsoft Exchange Rich Text Format" check box in the Address properties. If you type in the address, always use the form listname@servername and not [SMTP:listname@servername] for messages posted to the list. If you reply to a message containing RTF formatting, your reply will also contain RTF unless you clear the check box in the Address properties as described above. Do not use RTF formatting such as font, size, color, italics, bold, underline, or bullet lists. Please find ways to show the desired emphasis using plain text (such as *text* for bold) and similar methods. If you use Exchange Server, creating server commands by pasting data can cause errors because the server inserts ">" in front of pasted lines. Choose Paste Special from the Edit menu, and Select Text rather than RTF to avoid this problem. NOTE TO MICROSOFT INTERNET MAIL USERS If your program configuration options use MIME for attached files, your entire message will appear to Exchange users as an attached text file. This makes it difficult to read and reply to your contributions to the list. To prevent this problem, change the file attachment option to UUencode or use the options described below. If you send messages as HTML instead of plain text, many list members will receive the plain text of your message plus an attached file containing the HTML. This is distracting, and any emphasis you intended through character formatting such as bold or colors will be lost, which can change the apparent meaning of your message. Setting the following options can resolve both problems: Plain/Text MIME Encode text using: none Allow 8-bit characters in headers (disabled) NOTE TO cc:Mail USERS You must turn off the "Retain Original Text" option when replying to list messages. This option automatically includes message headers in a way that makes your message resemble a transmission error report. As a result, messages with the original text included are not posted to the list. Also see the previous section, QUOTING IN A REPLY MESSAGE. Thanks for joining the zorn-list. Enjoy! - mike rizzi, zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Kowalski Subject: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !! Date: 21 Aug 1998 14:49:39 -0400 Thank goodness for the zorn-list-digest format ... whopping % of the latest discussion threads(music ability, ...et al) have me wondering if folks are listening / have time to listen to any of the music vaguely hinted at in said discussions. Its not without merits and it is a noble cause but hey folks, its still summer currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs ;^ ) Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !! Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:23:24 -0500 Bob wrote: >currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs Ok, ok, musico-philosophical arguments suspended...for at least one post. Which Douglas do you mean? I picked up "Charms of the Night Sky" (Winter & Winter) last week and enjoy it quite a bit, though I'm a sucker for anything with Klucevsek. My wife was pleasantly surprised at the appearence of the Tosca piece; between this and La Banda, she thinks she'll have me loving Italian opera yet. Also picked up eight or nine others (birthday splurge). After I give them another listen, I'll post some mini-reviews. They included: Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times Peter Brotzmann Chicago Octet/Tentet Cornelius Cardew Thalmann Variations Cornelius Cardew Piano Music 1959-71 (John Tilbury on piano) Kevin Drumm Kevin Drumm Fredric Rzewski De Profundis, etc (Anthony da Mere on piano) Howard Skempton Well, Well, Cornelius (Tilbury) John Wall Fractuur Anyone who's already heard these, I'd love to hear comments. Much of the Brotzmann is killer. Brian Olewnick NP: Barry Adamson, As Above So Below - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sundberg Subject: Barbetomagus Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:54:46 -0600 I was looking at Music Boulevard for a Zorn CD and I looked for related artists, I found one, name Barbetomagus. If anyone here could point me in the direction of how to get a CD or a realaudio sound clip I would much appreciate it. \mOONS/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar Subject: mild dissention/ Douglas & Cohen cds= BRAVO!! Date: 21 Aug 1998 17:07:24 -0300 Brian Olewnick wrote: >Winter) last week and enjoy it quite a bit, though I'm a sucker for >anything with Klusevsek Does it mean it's not a recommendable cd? Not good enough? Please more light on this. -Hugo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: ganryu island and bolan Date: 21 Aug 1998 16:15:51 EDT 2 questions. what is ganryu island? is it another lost classical composition? or what? and also can someone please resend the list of performers and songs on the bolan tribute? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: ganryu island and bolan Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:27:27 -0700 On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:15:51 EDT DEANER76@aol.com wrote: > > 2 questions. what is ganryu island? is it another lost classical composition? > or what? and also can someone please resend the list of performers and songs > on the bolan tribute? 031 - GANRYU ISLAND: Michihiro Sato and John Zorn 1/ Ryu Kyu Heishi (Warrior from Ryu Kyu) 6:09 2/ Haguregumo (The Wanderer) 14:10 3/ Two Ronin 3:49 4/ Kagemusha 10:39 5/ Odori Dayu (Evening Dance of a Courtesan) 5:16 6/ Ganryu Island 11:09 7/ Yoshiwara Kaidan (Ghosts of the Geisha District) 3:30 Recorded on November 23rd, 1984, New York City Michihiro Sato: shamisen; John Zorn: reeds. 1985 - Yukon Records (USA), Yukon Records 2101 (LP) 1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ ???? (CD) Note: the CD reissue has not been released yet (planned for September 1998). *** - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: MARC BOLAN: various artists This record features Arto Lindsay (1), Rebecca Moore (2), Kramer (3), Melvins (4), Medeski/Martin & Wood (5), Lo Galluccio (6), Mike Patton (7), Tall Dwarfs (8), Chris Cochrane (9), Gary Lucas (10), Eszter Balint (11), Audio Noir (12), Danny Cohen (13), Elysian Fields (14), Sean Lennon & Yuka Honda (15), Cake Like (16), Trey Spruance (17), Buckethead (18), Lloyd Cole (19). 1/ Children Of The Revolution (Arto Lindsay) 2/ Telegram Sam (Rebecca Moore) 3/ Get It On (Kramer) 4/ Buick McKane (Melvins) 5/ Groove A Little (MM&W) 6/ Cosmic Dancer (Lo Galluccio) 7/ Chariot Choogle (Mike Patton) 8/ Ride A White Swan (Tall Dwarfs) 9/ Rip-Off (Chris Cochrane) 10/ Debora Arobed (Gary Lucas) 11/ Mambo Sun (Eszter Balint) 12/ Jeepster (Audio Noir) 13/ Lunacy's Back (Danny Cohen) 14/ Life's A Gas (Elysian Fields) 15/ Would I Be The One (Lennon, Honda) 16/ Love Charm (Cake Like) 17/ Sceneslof (Trey Spruance) 18/ 20th Century Boy (Buckethead) 19/ Romany Soup (Lloyd Cole) 1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 71?? (CD) Note: not released yet (planned for September 1998). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M.A. Piper" Subject: Re: Borbetomagus Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:32:05 -0500 (EST) Chris, Forced Exposure offers several of their CD's there's a good interview with Jim Sauter (sax) at: http://www.furious.com/perfect/borbetomagus.html the borbetomagus website: http://www.j51.com/~borbeto/ The self-titled BORBETOMAGUS is what I'd suggest for starters. Borbeto is really, really intense free improv and definitely not for the timid. On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Chris Sundberg wrote: >I was looking at Music Boulevard for a Zorn CD and I looked for related >artists, I found one, name Barbetomagus. If anyone here could point me >in the direction of how to get a CD or a realaudio sound clip I would >much appreciate it. > >\mOONS/ > Best, Michael - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies Date: 21 Aug 1998 16:53:44 -0400 brian> Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times Isn't this the one with Howard Levy (harmonica)? I've got a couple of other Abou-Khalil albums which I really liked (one of the jazz ones with Kenny Wheeler and Steve Swallow, and Arabian Waltz with the Balinescu Quartet), but this one hasn't done anything for me yet, maybe a little too frantic. As I remember it's kind of percussion heavy too, and there's no harmonic middle to fill things out. brian> John Wall Fractuur Excellent! More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound world. The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in live instruments as well. I've also splurged recently and got the Resonance magazine with Wall playing live with some DJs on the CD -- I'll post something when I've had a chance to listen to it. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Olewnick Subject: [Fwd: Re: Brian's recent goodies] Date: 21 Aug 1998 17:42:17 -0400 Message-ID: <35DDE991.14B9@tribeca.ios.com> Reply-To: olewnik@tribeca.ios.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caleb Deupree wrote: > > brian> Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times > > Isn't this the one with Howard Levy (harmonica)? That's the one. I've only listened to it once, but liked it pretty well. It's less jazz-oriented than I might have guessed, sounds a lot more like something Simon Shaheen might have done with this instrumentation (oud, harmonica, tuba and percussion). >Fractuur > Excellent! More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound > world. The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in > live instruments as well. Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is, musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his earlier stuff well worth checking out? Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies Date: 22 Aug 1998 07:31:27 -0400 At 05:42 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Fractuur >> Excellent! More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound >> world. The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in >> live instruments as well. > >Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the >samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some >Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems >much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is, >musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his >earlier stuff well worth checking out? > Alterstill is *definitely* worth checking out. There's a lot of the same kind of atmospherics, but then he'll toss in some recognizable Zorn or Painkiller or some other heavy metal stuff. The first one (name escapes me) is much harder to find and embryonic. The interview with him in Resonance 6.2 is also worth reading, going into some depth on his methods and rationales. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Marc Ribot and Tricky Date: 23 Aug 1998 12:22:19 -0700 I just bought the CD EP BROKEN HOMES by Tricky and (to my surprise) noticed that Marc Ribot plays on one track (acoustic guitar!). Does somebody who has Tricky's last full length record could check if Ribot appears on? Same question for the other CD EPs (there seen to be at least two). Thanks, Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Marc Ribot and Tricky Date: 23 Aug 1998 12:33:31 -0700 At 12:22 PM 8/23/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > I just bought the CD EP BROKEN HOMES by Tricky and (to my surprise) >noticed that Marc Ribot plays on one track (acoustic guitar!). Does somebody >who has Tricky's last full length record could check if Ribot appears on? >Same question for the other CD EPs (there seen to be at least two). Ribot appears on one other track on the CD (_Angels with Dirty Faces), titled "Talk to Me." Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Marc Ribot and Tricky Date: 23 Aug 1998 15:43:10 EDT Ribot appears on three songs on Tricky's recent full-length, Angels With Dirty Faces: 6 Minutes, Talk To Me (Angels With Dirty Faces), and Broken Homes. Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !! Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:55:35 +0200 > Thank goodness for the zorn-list-digest format ... whopping % of the > latest discussion threads(music ability, ...et al) have me wondering if > folks are listening / have time to listen to any of the music vaguely hinted > at in said discussions. As a matter of fact I just picked up the following CD's this weekend: Sheena Parkins-Isabelle Marc Ribot-Shrek and Don't Blame Me John Zorn-Masada 1 Cyro Baptista-Villa Lobos Vira Loucos Dave Douglas-Tiny Bell Trio (second album) Recommendations are welcome. Btw, has any of you heard the following album? It's by Zorn, Sharp, Horvitz and Previte. I don't remember the title. Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 24 Aug 1998 12:42:10 +0200 > J.T. de Boer wrote: > >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering > >music as art." > You have switched our argument from > "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians > make music inferior in various artistic qualities to > the music made by trained musicians." > > These statements are two entirely different statements. Hi David, No, for me they're not. When I talk about music in this discussion, I mean music as art. That's possibly the reason why my point of view didn't get across and why my opinion seems so rigid. Indeed the discussion started as the question whether anyone could make music, but for me it was a logical step to broaden the discussion, because art became involved. I understand that this could seem like a escape from the discussion, but it's not. Furthermore you seem to think that I connect technical ability of playing an instrument with art. I wrote in an earlier email: > Of course there are people who take the idea > of minimalist music (by hearing minimal music) and produce a > composition based on the parameters of minimalism, but I make a > distinction between people who can't work out an idea by themselves > and people who use the example to generate individual > ideas/compositions. I admit this is almost impossible to distinguish > but it's the theoretical idea I have. In this case people who can't > play an instrument can be good composers and vice versa. Art for me (and I'm sure for many other people) can be defined in a very broad sense. Judging music as art and/or order it as good/bad is largely a matter of flexibility. Of course I can use the factor of technical ability in my judgement, but I trie to be as impartial as possible. When you say a virtuoso player can have uninspired performances or ideas I totally agree with you, but maybe there are other factors that can make their music art, for instance their motives to play a certain piece, or their artistic system if they have one. > We were only discussing the first statement. In order > to discuss the second statement we must first agree that > your scale of "gradation in considering music as art" > exists. I think just this question can work out as a clarifying aspect of the discussion, because we don't share the same point of view. > In that case, since we have established the existence of such a > discrepancy in our two scales, we imply that it is > possible for a non-musician (low instrument proficiency score) > to create a piece of high compositional merit. I'm not saying > it is done every day but I am saying it is possible and that it > has been done... ...As I said in the above mentioned earlier email... > This argument I > think illustrates that "Not only can > non-musicians can make music but it is possible for non-musicians > to make music of equal or superior quality to that of trained > musicians." Now you're mingling two totally different aspect of music: the ability to play and the ability to compose. The art in music for me only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind. I think it's essential to determine which aspect of music we're talking about. Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: skills Date: 24 Aug 1998 15:19:01 +0200 > I take issue with this: I agree with whoever said that learning more > about music opened up many different doors and showed me that > different things were possible in the instruments that i was using, > yet at the same time - don't consider myself to be a 'better' musician > than when i started out. Please let me make clear that I've never said that a better instrumentalist is also a better musician. Some people on the list seem to think that, but it's just not the case. I'm not sure whether it's an argument which is used solely to attack my opinions or a way of thinking that is based on a defensive attitude against a so-called 'elitist' approach towards 'non-music' which I seem to represent. In either case these aren't good arguments to discuss with me,because they aren't applicable to this thread. > the 'vocabulary' of > music as you put it, is > something that everyone has. No, first of all I mean that everybody (in this case anyone who makes,or think who makes music) *seems* to have it, and besides that I think that if anyone has a thourough command on this vocabulary,this doesn't mean that all of these persons can make music, music as art. > Also, how about folk musicians (Tuvan overtone singers for example). > They often have NO musical training of an official nature and > understand nothing about music in a formal sense. They understand > sound and they understand what makes them want to make music. They > have SOUL. (or we hope they do) that's what makes successful music. > For that matter howabout Chet Baker, most people would call him a > musician, but he didn't even know what a key signiature was (i > personally find his playing pleasant but rather dull sometimes). A I stated in earlier emails one can't compare cultural outings which come from a complete other culture (Tuvan) or period (Baker), at least not in this discussion, because I stick to the opinion that this thread is about contemporay music. You can pass judgement on them though but in that case it's not solely about the art as art anymore, but you integrate history in it as well (it is nice to discuss though!). > > I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier it's not > > about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories > > used to create the wanted sound. > > Let me guess, you don't go dancing very much. Well, I dance a lot:). Please let me make clear that the view you used from me is now completely separated from the original context: I wrote: > When Stockhausen produced his first > electronic compositions he had a clear vision of what he wanted and > worked out the technology necessary. In modern dance music you now > hear many of the sounds created by Stockhausen but I consider these > sounds alone less artful than the original sounds. Enjoyment is not the issue here. I mean, I enjoy a lot of dance-music, blockbuster-movies etc., but you won't hear me say that all of these forms of culture art artforms. > Or i completely misunderstood your > point of view. No, not completely:) Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan E Kayser Subject: "Downtown NY" comes to Philadelphia Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:29:08 -0400 For all of you out there in the Greater Philadelphia area who are tired of the 2 hour journey to NY to see and hear good jazz: SWEETNIGHTER PRODUCTIONS PRESENTS Check out our web site at http://home.att.net/~lankina/sweetnighter UPCOMING SHOWS September 4 8PM OTHER DIMENSIONS IN MUSIC October 4 4PM KEN VANDERMARK 5 October 10 8PM ANDY LASTER'S HYDRA December 6 4PM URI CAINE'S MAHLER/PRIMAL LIGHT If you would like to be added to our mailing list send your info to aek1@erols.com. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason J. Tar" Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:28:31 -0400 >Kevin Drumm Kevin Drumm What is his music like? I noticed that he'll be playing in Chicago in October with Otomo Yoshihide. > brian> John Wall Fractuur >Resonance magazine with Wall playing live with some DJs on the CD -- >I'll post something when I've had a chance to listen to it. The track is quite good, though the rest of the disc didn't strike me. (Except for Ground Zero vs. Xentos. Anyone ever heard of Xentos before??) >Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the >samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some >Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems >much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is, >musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his >earlier stuff well worth checking out? _Alterstill_ is quite good, though a bit noisier and easier to pick out samples. _Fear of Gravity_ however isn't so good. I've only listened to it a few times, but it never struck me as anything close to as good as the other two. The Resonance Magazine does have an interview with him, though I've yet to read it. Some recent purchases of mine which may be of note on this list include: Jon Rose _Techno Mit Strungen_. live recording featuring some 20+ artists. Main three seem to be Frank Schulte (?), Otomo Yoshihide, and Christian Marclay. Some notables among the others include Rose, Chris Cutler, Fred Frith, Mark Ribot, Evan Parker, etc. Haven't listened to it enough yet, but seems fairly good. Lots of diversity and not too meandering. :) Broken up into 34 tracks to help future listens. Orchester 33.3 on Mego. Not the normal sine wave, noise of Mego, but some actual compositions. A 13-piece ensemble lead by Christian Fennesz and Christof Kurzman, it does combine well several genres of sound. Again I haven't listened enough to make too valid of a review, but it seems fairly well done. Peter Brotmann guests on one track. Unfortunately, while both cds have information in English, the liner notes are in German in both, and the Orchester 33.3 has multimedia in MAC only, so can't tell if those add any aspects to the works. Bother. --- Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar W. W. J. D? (What would Jason Do?) http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason ICQ@13792120 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re: Downtown Lullaby was re:mild dissension Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:42:23 -0500 >Sheena Parkins-Isabelle Ah yes, she does that solo harp version of 'Hollyrock' ;-) >Recommendations are welcome. Btw, has any of you heard the following >album? It's by Zorn, Sharp, Horvitz and Previte. I don't remember the >title. 'Downtown Lullaby'. Got it a few weeks back and think it's very good (far superior, IMHO, to the Previte/Zorn duo, though a lot of folk here liked that much more than I). This one is also, apparently, all improv but finds itself in a more rockish groove, often verging on 70's Miles territory, but isn't everybody lately? My one mild complaint, actually, is the rut I find that JZ gets into when working in rock contexts. He seems to pull out that one squeal at the drop of a hat. Everyone else, especially Horvitz and Previte, are fine. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:58:37 -0500 >>Kevin Drumm Kevin Drumm >What is his music like? I noticed that he'll be playing in Chicago in >October with Otomo Yoshihide. I've yet to listen a second time, but the first impression wasn't too great. It's solo guitar, almost always played in such a manner as to mask the guitar origins. My problem is that on most of the tracks, the sounds seem arbitrary, in subtle distinction to random. It's a hard distinction to qualify, but someone like Bailey strikes me as making _precisely_ the sound he intended at that split-second. Drumm struck this listener as mere doodling around. There is one cut (about 9 minutes) that's a sustained drone and which is much more interesting to me than all the hen-scratching. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 24 Aug 1998 13:31:39 EDT well, clearly it's just a matter of taste, but I do feel somewhat obliged to defend the Kevin Drumm record (we are talking about the one on Perdition Plastics, right?) as it was on my top 10 list of 1997. I haven't heard this record in a few months, but what impressed me about it was, in part, the fact that Drumm had managed to dredge up a whole new set of sounds from a guitar. I also felt like there was an internal logic to the record, just not as continuous of one as is common among most free improvisers. in more plain words, Drumm uses silences a great deal. all of this boils down to taste, though. I was just trying to give the flip side and let people know that I do find this record very worthwhile. in other solo guitar news: a flood of Loren Mazzacane records have recently been released. I think with the upcoming Evangeline on Road Cone, that makes four in the last two months. of the other three, the one I like the most so far is The Bridge. for Taku Sugimoto fans, I'm listening to Fragments Of Paradise on Creativeman Disc. I don't think I like either this or his duet record with the aforementioned Kevin Drumm on Meme as much as I do his record on Hat Noir. anyone know where I can get Robbie Basho's Guitar Solo on Takoma in NYC? Jon >>> >>Kevin Drumm Kevin Drumm >What is his music like? I noticed that he'll be playing in Chicago in >October with Otomo Yoshihide. I've yet to listen a second time, but the first impression wasn't too great. It's solo guitar, almost always played in such a manner as to mask the guitar origins. My problem is that on most of the tracks, the sounds seem arbitrary, in subtle distinction to random. It's a hard distinction to qualify, but someone like Bailey strikes me as making _precisely_ the sound he intended at that split-second. Drumm struck this listener as mere doodling around. There is one cut (about 9 minutes) that's a sustained drone and which is much more interesting to me than all the hen-scratching.<<< - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: al.t@mtnhdw.com (Al T) Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb Date: 22 Aug 1998 08:04:52 GMT >> In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively >> to "experimental music," I have two comments. 1)The myth (meaning myth, >> not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to >> become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this >> makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately >> grasp. This is good, I think. >Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it >possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator >while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly. I'm probably way behind the times since I've been trying to work through a dead email server and am reading digest to boot, but... Another few relevant myths: Tibetian: All forms emerge into time from the mouth of the dragon. The closer you are to the source the more the distorted and the well-formed, order and chaos, the etc and the etc, are hopelessly mixed together. Crowley: Thoth, messanger or the Divine, is always accompanied by an Ape. While Thoth speaks the Ape acts out a parody. Unfortunately we humans can never be sure which is Thoth and which is the Ape. It may, in fact, be occasionally impossible to tell the wankers from the innovators and I suspect there are both wankers and innovators that are themselves confused. This, of course, bugs the shit out of us. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allan Sutherland Subject: Zorn, coleman and Serphadic Tinge. Date: 25 Aug 1998 07:27:23 +0900 Hello, Can anyone help? This summer, I saw John Zorn play with Anthony Coleman and the Serphadic Tinge at Tonic in New York, July 19, as part of Zorn's new music series. They were substituting or Myra Melford, who was unwell. My qustion is, doe anyone know the names of the bassist and the drummer? I seem to have forgotten, and would like to know. Thanks for any assistance. Allan. I am writing a discography of all of the recorded works of the sublime pianist McCoy Tyner, as leader and sideman, official and not so official. Any information that you may think will be even of the slightest help, please do not hesitate to contact me. Knowledge gained multiple times is far preferred to that never learned. Any help given will be acknowledged in the discography, or not if you prefer that. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: Ignore, unless you live in Hawaii Date: 24 Aug 1998 17:51:08 PDT Sorry for this post, but I'm trying to locate someone who emailed me a while back about an X-Legged Sally disc he thought I had. I think his name was Dan, and that he lived in Hawaii. If that's you, please email me, I have something that might interest you. DB Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 24 Aug 1998 22:03:57 -0400 J.T. de Boer wrote: > Now you're mingling two totally different aspect of music: the > ability to play and the ability to compose. The art in music for me > only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind. > I think it's essential to determine which aspect of music we're > talking about. Why do you mean by "the idea of a piece"? Where does this reside in the case of collaborative free improvisation? -- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Syna Subject: new Greg Cohen release??? Date: 25 Aug 1998 00:05:13 -0400 > >currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs > >;^ ) Bob > Can someone enlighten me about the new Greg Cohen!! What label, whose on it??? Etc?? Thanks, Brad - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith McMullen" Subject: Re: new Greg Cohen release??? Date: 24 Aug 1998 20:35:37 -0700 Has Cohen's performances in Woody Allen's documentary been discussed to death here? Keith - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 25 Aug 1998 00:36:52 -0400 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > for Taku Sugimoto fans, I'm listening to Fragments Of Paradise on Creativeman > Disc. I don't think I like either this or his duet record with the > aforementioned Kevin Drumm on Meme as much as I do his record on Hat Noir. Having not yet heard the others mentioned, I second this recommendation of the hat Noir release. It's a thing of beauty, the interstice (an old Fripp term) of Derek Bailey and a Zen rock garden. One of my favorite records this year (but note that I've bought much less than usual this year as well so take heed...). Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 24 Aug 1998 21:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Drumm's solo disc (released by Thymme Jones' excellent Perdition Plastics label) was billed as similar style and approach to Keith Rowe (AMM) for prepared guitar playing. Drumm apparently plays live often with all the usual Chicago suspects, including Illusion of Safety and of course Jim O'Rourke and finally had a chance to do something of his own. from all accounts i've heard, he's an impressive guitar player to watch live. i've listened to the disc a handful of times and still can't quite grasp it. because the recording is so very quiet (shades of RLW?), i wonder if something is lost on most stereos? i had to really listen carefully on headphones to hear much of anything. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:31:13 +0200 > >The art in music for me > > only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind. > > > > Why do you mean by "the idea of a piece"? Where does this reside in the > case of collaborative free improvisation? By the idea of a piece I mean a sort of system an artist might be using when playing or composing. I'm aware of the fact that I'm reasoning abstractly here, but I think such a system really exists in a true ARTists mind. This system, I think, is used also when improvizing. An aspect which shouldn't be underestimated in the case of improvizing is the fact that a particular artists uses partly musical forms that he/she is familiar with, a kind of personal statement or maybe the easiest way. An appropriate example of the latter argument was given by Brian Olewnick when he wrote yesterday: > My one mild complaint, actually, is the rut I find that JZ gets into > when working in rock contexts. He seems to pull out that one > squeal at the drop of a hat. Of course this says nothing about his musicality, but more of the fact that even the best musicians take it easy now and then:) Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Percy Grainger? Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:51:30 +0200 I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive badminton-game based on the music and writings of Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century composers. Btw, anyone who hasn't heard Rose yet should definitely do it. His music is absolutely fantastic. Some recommended albums IMO are 'Violin Music for Resaurants' (Derek Bailey, E. Chadbourne, Barre Phillips, Alvin Curran, etc.) and '/shoppinglive@victo' (Lauren Newton, Joelle Leandre, Otomo Yoshihide & Chris Cutler). Jeroen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stefan Verstraeten Subject: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:07:12 +0200 Dear Zornies, I am looking for the following albums by Bill Laswell, but I can't find them. Does anyone know where I can order them with a credit card (through a website or by phone/fax). Thank you very much.... (1)Various Artists : Sample Material. It's on a Belgian Label called Sounds Good. Funny though, I live in Belgium (yes indeed, the country of Yves Dewulf.... *hi Yves, that buckethead bootleg is on it's way* and me) but I never heard of this belgian label (2)Swans : This burning world (on the uni label) So, if anyone knows where to get these album or has any contact addresses of these labels. Please let me know.... ps. Jeff Spirer, perhaps you can help me??? -- Stefan Verstraeten - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re[2]: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:07:18 -0500 >Kevin Drumm's solo disc (released by Thymme >Jones' excellent Perdition Plastics label) >was billed as similar style and approach to >Keith Rowe (AMM) for prepared guitar >playing. I can see the comparison, in that Drumm (on the basis of this recording, at least) concentrates largely on very "un-guitarlike" sounds and utilizes silence and quiet a great deal. Now, my exposure to Rowe is still limited (to late AMM), but the outcome of his playing results, to me, in the carving out of a very expansive and breathing space whereas Drumm's work struck me as more claustrophobic (not that the former is objectively superior to the latter, but I tend to find it so). But that was as of just one listen and, as you mention below, it might benefit from headphones or higher volume. Jon and Steve mentioned Taku Sugimoto's disc on hat Noir. While similar in many respects, Sugimoto's work, IMHO, has a (for lack of a better word) limpidity that I find much more attractive. Amazing how narrowly one can split a hair, eh? Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caleb Deupree Subject: Re: Percy Grainger? Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:20:00 -0400 >>>>> "Jeroen" == J T de Boer writes: Jeroen> I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive Jeroen> badminton-game based on the music and writings of Jeroen> Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone Jeroen> ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one Jeroen> of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century Jeroen> composers. Grainger has two different kinds of works, piano pieces that are largely folk song based (the piece Country Gardens is reasonably well known, and was spoofed by an Allan Sherman comedy hit in the 1960s), similar perhaps to some of Ralph Vaughn Williams' work. This music is represented at least to some extent in recordings. But he also supposedly made some extremely experimental music, homemade instruments, unusual tuning systems, etc., which AFAIK is not represented in any recording. I believe he was gay in a time and place which did not appreciate it, which contributed to his obscurity. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: Re: new Greg Cohen release??? Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:38:03 -0400 >Has Cohen's performances in Woody Allen's documentary been discussed to >death here? > >Keith Not at all. I'd love to hear about it too. Marc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Downing Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but... Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:19:50 -0400 >By the idea of a piece I mean a sort of system an artist might be >using when playing or composing. I'm aware of the fact that I'm >reasoning abstractly here, but I think such a system really exists in >a true ARTists mind. This system, I think, is used also when >improvizing. An aspect which shouldn't be underestimated in the case >of improvizing is the fact that a particular artists uses partly >musical forms that he/she is familiar with, a kind of personal >statement or maybe the easiest way. It seems to me that this "system" could be anything from a developed sense (judgement, style, taste, etc.) of melody to something more intellectualized (a twelve-tone "system", for example) to skill with collage (the ability to blend melodic ideas,"personal statements", references to other pieces and styles, etc.). This would mean that there're an awful lot of ARTists out there, which is a very good thing. Marc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: YO! MILES: what a fantastic record! Date: 25 Aug 1998 08:37:50 -0700 I could not believe how good YO! MILES (Henry Kaiser and Leo Smith's 2xCD tribute to Miles Davis) is!!! They cover electric Miles (early '70s) and the playing is fantastic (Leo Smith, in particular, is astonishing, and Rova Sax. 4tet provides some awesome blowing). The first CD is so good that I played it three times (and I am sure it is close to 74mn). The first track was good enough to make me pause what I was doing; the second made me stop completely to listen to. And the pressure seems to never stop. As a result I have no clue how the second CD is. But I doubt that I will be disappointed. Patrice (also waiting for Bobby Previte's The Horse). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Claudio Koremblit" Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V2 #449 Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:36:56 -0300 > Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:20:00 -0400 > From: Caleb Deupree > Subject: Re: Percy Grainger? > > >>>>> "Jeroen" == J T de Boer writes: > > > I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive > > badminton-game based on the music and writings of > > Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone > > ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one > > of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century > > composers. But he also > supposedly made some extremely experimental music, homemade > instruments, unusual tuning systems, etc., which AFAIK is not > represented in any recording. I believe he was gay in a time and > place which did not appreciate it, which contributed to his > obscurity. > > Caleb T. Deupree And, like Ezra Pound, Grainger was marked for his political ideas in the hard times of the war. He was accussed of Nazi. And for this was left out of the "great music history", but was a great innovator, like Pound, sure. CK - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith McMullen" Subject: Greg Cohen in Wild Man Blues Date: 25 Aug 1998 08:55:55 -0700 Not at all. I'd love to hear about it too. Marc There's not a lot to say. I sneaked out to the theater to see this documentary account of a Woody Allen Band Eurpoean tour ashamed to be giving my support to that licorice stick licking scandal incarnate, and low and behold who was on stage plucking the bass in the band? Our own Greg Cohen, grinning and plucking the whole movie through. Is Cohen a regular or even irregular in Allen's NY gig? Keith - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gsg@juno.com (Geoff S Gersh) Subject: Straylight w/ Joe McPhee Date: 25 Aug 1998 13:07:53 -0400 Straylight Dialogues w/ Joe McPhee and Michael West Monday, August 31, 1998 - 9 & 11pm Alterknit Theater, Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St. NYC info / tix 212.219.3006 Straylight Dialogues continues to explore improvised musical languages as special guests Joe McPhee (reeds, brass, electronics), a jazz and new music innovator for over 30 years and Michael West (voice), a specialist in extended vocal techniques and vocal traditions of Africa, Asia, and the Americas join Straylight's members Jason Finkelman (berimbau, riti, percussion), Geoff Gersh (guitar), and Charles Cohen (Buchla music easel) for an evening of music alone and in collaboration. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:11:23 -0700 At 11:07 AM 8/25/98 +0200, Stefan Verstraeten wrote: >(1)Various Artists : Sample Material. It's on a Belgian Label called >Sounds Good. Funny though, I live in Belgium I don't think that this was ever distributed. I am fairly certain it was just created as a tool for musicians. I have only seen one copy, which was Bill's, and is the one the cover was scanned from for the web site. >(2)Swans : This burning world (on the uni label) This shows up in used bins every now and then. It has been out of print for years, but Swans fans generally don't like it and sell it. But perhaps by now they have all been sold... Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Audino Subject: Re: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:39:32 -0500 (CDT) > >(2)Swans : This burning world (on the uni label) > > This shows up in used bins every now and then. It has been out of print > for years, but Swans fans generally don't like it and sell it. But perhaps > by now they have all been sold... Some of this material will be re-issued in the near future on Atavistic Records (USA). The Swans are in the process of selecting what they believe to be their best work and re-packaging it to maximize the chance of it staying in print. Unfortunately, this means that several albums are being whittled down. The Swans themselves apparently dislike _This Burning World_, so count on it to be diced up. Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat, Paul psaudino@interaccess.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "M. Forrest Lewis" Subject: zorn in boulder Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:58:06 -0600 does anyone know if zorn has ever played in boulder colorado, or any dates coming up? i live in a really socially retarded area where the extent of our concert line-up's consist of loverboy or april wine, and that's if we're lucky ;( boulder would be the closest place i can think of that might even come close to having anything remotely experimental... -louie - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Percy Grainger? Date: 25 Aug 1998 19:12:22 -0400 Caleb Deupree wrote: > Jeroen> I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive > Jeroen> badminton-game based on the music and writings of > Jeroen> Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone > Jeroen> ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one > Jeroen> of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century > Jeroen> composers. > > Grainger has two different kinds of works, piano pieces that are > largely folk song based (the piece Country Gardens is reasonably well > known, and was spoofed by an Allan Sherman comedy hit in the 1960s), > similar perhaps to some of Ralph Vaughn Williams' work. This music is > represented at least to some extent in recordings. A huge extent, really... Chandos is issuing a series of all of his music. I don't know if that will eventually include the more experimental things you mention below (excellent synopsis, by the way), but it has already presented most of the orchestral, choral and solo piano music as well as some of the songs. Those who are curious should try to find "The Warriors," a really interesting tone poem with some downright Ivesian pantonal stuff in it. > supposedly made some extremely experimental music, homemade > instruments, unusual tuning systems, etc., which AFAIK is not > represented in any recording. I believe he was gay in a time and > place which did not appreciate it, which contributed to his > obscurity. His politics have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread (he was a virulent racist), but I would add that he was not only gay but an S&M fetishist and a self-flagellant as well. Yet he was married in a huge public ceremony at the Hollywood Bowl, and reportedly wanted to have children expressly so he could beat them (happily, he had none). But he wrote some delightful and beguiling music... the popular song "Danny Boy" is based on the same melody as his "Irish Tune from County Derry." And most folks who came up through the American school band program probably played "Lincolnshire Posy" at some point during junior high school. The Percy Grainger Society maintains a good website that talks about the new music experiments, if not the lifestyle, at http://www.tisl.co.uk/grainger/PAG.htm In addition, there is a fine article that talks about all of his music, his politics and his S&M leanings (inspired by beatings from his mother) at http://www.futurenet.com/classicalnet/composers/features/grainger/grainger.html "People like me ought to be burned at the stake." - Percy Grainger, 1882-1961 Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: clockwise Subject: Re: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please Date: 25 Aug 1998 19:28:27 -0500 >>(1)Various Artists : Sample Material. It's on a Belgian Label called >>Sounds Good. Funny though, I live in Belgium > >I don't think that this was ever distributed. I am fairly certain it was >just created as a tool for musicians. I have only seen one copy, which was >Bill's, and is the one the cover was scanned from for the web site. I paid $100 dollars for that piece of shit, and it is total garbage, almost none of the samples were isolated from the original tracks, so in essence I spent all that money for 3 second snippits of music I already owned. I always assumed all Laswell had to do with it was releasing the copyright. I can't imagine he would think that cd would be a useful tool for anyone looking for sounds. peace clockwise - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stefan Verstraeten Subject: Swans / Bill Laswell album Date: 26 Aug 1998 09:12:49 +0200 Dear Zornies, Thank you everybody for the help on finding the sample material of the axiom label (especially Rich Williams for giving me an online store, cheers mate, I owe you one). As far from the other emails I got, This Burning World by the Swans seems (a) out of print and (b) is never going to be reissued. So, does anyone on the zornlist has a copy (or knows someone) that wants to trade or sell this album or is willing to make a copy of it? Thank you very much, -- Stefan Verstraeten - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pequet@nirvanet.net (Benjamin Pequet) Subject: piano pieces Date: 26 Aug 1998 06:42:32 -0600 I suppose the question of where to find written music (if it is to be found at all) has been asked regularly on the zorn-list and I hesitate about asking the question now. But I didn't see anything about it in the faqs. And a research on the internet gave nothing either. I am asking this for a friend who needs specifically Anthony Colemans scores, where to start looking for that ? Whom to ask, are these musics published, distributed ? The question goes also for pieces written by others and played by Coleman. Last week for instance I saw Klucevsek scores for sale at one of his concerts. Should we try to reach Coleman through... Tzadik or something ? Thank you for any answer. Benjamin - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: YO! MILES: what a fantastic record! Date: 26 Aug 1998 08:14:17 -0700 On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:02:28 -0500 Jeff Schwartz wrote: > > Me, I'm unsure what to make of Yo Miles after one > listening. Yes, everyone plays amazingly, but it's so > close to the originals-to the point that Henry recreates > some of the trademark tones of Pete Cosey and John > McLaughlin and Smith uses a wah-wah for the first time in > his career. I fear that these cats are just a bit too > faithful or literal in their tribute, so that the question > "why should I play Yo Miles when I can play Panagea?" > comes up. I hope this album is as controversial as > Panthalassa. It is true that the music is very faithful. But is it a problem? I mean, every month there is a new orchestra which puts out a new interpretation of the 5th by Beethoven and nobody would even dare to complain about it. So, in the case of Miles, who has accumulated so much music in so many different styles, should we discard any interpretation of his music because we still have Miles' records with us? What I like with this record is that it shows that Miles' electric period is also a repertoire (a lost concept in modern jazz), something that you can cover now and it still sounds fresh. The interpretation could have been trite, boring, uninspired (common with tributes); it is not. Also, I am sure that there is more variety in their interpretation of Miles' music than in what most classical ensemble brings when they put out one more version of a famous piece :-). Sorry, but cases like Glenn Gould are the exception, not the rule. This record makes me feel happy because it is enjoyable music played by people (I guess) who had great pleasure to do it, and it sounds so good. But, yes, this is not a record for somebody who's looking for the next experimentation. It is record which proves that what used to be experimentation in the early '70 (and late '60), is not anymore. This is a music that new musicians can borrow and play. It is successful experimentation: it works 30 years after. Patrice (not a masochist for this time). . - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Corey Marc Fogel Subject: Re: piano pieces Date: 26 Aug 1998 10:12:01 -0700 (MST) On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Benjamin Pequet wrote: > Last week for instance I saw Klucevsek scores for sale at one of his concerts. > Should we try to reach Coleman through... Tzadik or something ? > Thank you for any answer. Benjamin transcriptions!!! thats the best way. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar Subject: Recent Goodies Date: 26 Aug 1998 14:20:15 -0300 New cds, old cds, always music. The Lounge Lizards Queen of all Ears Strange And Beautiful Music Very beautiful music, and not strange at all. A friend of mine said this was the best album of the ... next year!. If you don't have this one, go get it. Highly recommended. Moguilevsky y Los Acusticos El Viaje Epsa An Argentine five members group with a great sound. Moguilevsky plays woodwinds and the rest of the band includes violin/piano-guitar/electric and acoustc basses/drums and percussion. Their first cd; improvisations and melodies with Jewish elements, local music (they states in the booklet "with litoraleno or criollo air") rather close to "folklore" and kind of abstract tango. Good. Worth hearing. Astor Piazzolla Concierto de Nacar Editions Milan Music Amazing. Outstanding. All favourable adjectives you'd like to add is permitted. Live concert on June 1983, released 1997. This is the late Maestro with his Conjunto 9 (Ensemble 9) formed with musicians who were not those of the original 1971-72 group; also there's a Filarmonic Orchestra in the second part of the cd (Concerto for Bandoneon) that accomplishes a sound that is unusual for Piazzolla, really a symphonic explosion. The "Buenos Aires Zero Hour" version is unbelievable. Just a delicious stroke in my ears and soul. Not quite "recent", but new to my collection. Peep; The Joy of Being KFW Probably known to those who assist at the Knit, this group has been an authentic surprise to me. I'm really amazed with this cd; lots of energy, wide-ranging influenced music that include free jazz, humour, European Circus and gipsy-like cadences. IMHO, an authentic masterpiece. Peep; are: Michael Attias, alto and baritone; Robert Cimino, percussion; Fred Longberg-holm, cello; Edward Ratliff, trumpet, trombone, euphonium, accordion. Not to be missed. BTW, is there any other Peep;'s cd in the stores? Sorry for being so longish. -Hugo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies Date: 26 Aug 1998 10:27:53 -0800 Sorry for the digest delay here: Brian Olewnick wrote >>Fractuur >> Excellent! More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound >> world. The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in >> live instruments as well. > >Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the >samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some >Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems >much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is, >musically, much different. I'm interested in Brian's characterization of Stone, Wall & Oswald here. In my mind, Wall is the outsider of the three, rather than Oswald. If by the above you mean that Stone & Wall are similar in that their main interest is to create new compositions out of sounds from others as opposed to presenting a new look at an older composition by manipulating its components (I realize this characterization of "Oswald and others" is exaggerated & reductive) then I think I understand your point. But one of the things that makes the output of the two so different is that Stone works very idiomatically within the traditions of elecronic music, while Wall seems almost to be making a kind of acoustic instrumental music using sampling technology to create pieces that could be played by live musicians, if the right musicians came together. For the most part Wall's work could be transcribed in music notation and handed out to musicians who had wareness of contemporary performance practice. He rarely, if ever, uses the sampler or other processing devices to significantly alter the timbre of an instrumental sound. Again this is something of an exaggeration, but this is one of the things that makes Wall's music relatively unusual when heard in the context of most other people who specialize in sampling technology, but significantly less unusual in the context of the composers who get name checked as being sampled by him. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Kowalski Subject: Cohen on film and on disc Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:18:42 -0400 Greg Cohen's new album (on DIW) is called "Way Out" and I highly recommend it to all. A partial tribute to Ellington and a whole record full of wonderful tunes -- definately worth the $20 asking price. Cohen's performance in "Wild Man Blues" is cool -- he even ranks a joke or two from the Woodman. Non Woody Allen fans should stick to the new album however. Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Benton Subject: David Krakauer in Dallas Date: 26 Aug 1998 14:48:12 -0500 (CDT) Well, it's sort of nice to see we're finally down the last few debris of this intellectual pissing contest that the whole "Can non-musicians make music" thread boiled into...which seems like an appropriate enough time for me to make one of my extremely infrequent interjections of Zorn-y content... This past weekend I took a little day trip from the home base in Austin to hear clarinetist David Krakauer's "Klezmer Madness" band (of Tzadik fame) at the Dallas Jewish Arts Festival. It's funny, on the drive up I started to think about my last klezmer road trip: scooting down to Houston a couple of months ago to hear the Klezmatics who were good but not nearly as great as I expected them to be and it's sort of undecided whether or not the trip was entirely worth it. but oh well. Too bad for the Klezmatics. Krakauer and crew were totally unreal. The current incarnation of the band is different from the one of the 'Klezmer Madness' disc, this group includes Ted Reichman on accordion, Kevin Norton on drums, and Adam Rogers on guitar. I don't know anything about Rogers at all, but he pretty much stole the show for me. I probably wouldn't have felt anything was missing had this group shown up as a guitar-less trio, but Rogers was just adding all of these magical little touches that had me anticipating what was going to happen every time he started to play. He was featured prominently on a piece called 'Klezdrix', which was absolute craziness I tell you... And it's funny that David Krakauer's name didn't pop into my head during the clarinet player thread some weeks ago...I haven't heard him play too much in non-klez contexts but I suspect he sounds great wherever..I've never heard anyone with mastery of so many little nuances of the horn, all sorts of strange little sounds coming from the nooks and crannies of his instrument. Kevin Norton told me that Krakauer's 2nd album for Tzadik (featuring this band plus Oren Bloedow on bass) should be out hopefully next month so be looking for it. It's going to include a suite of compositions that constitute a klezmer tribute to Sidney Bichet which they played various bits of Sunday. So that's a random and hopefully semi-informative account of some happenings here in Texas; and while I'm going on about it, let me offer a tiny little commercial plug for an Austin event that hopefully might be of interest to local Zorn-listers: The Golden Arm Trio, the Blue Noise Band, and the Alien Time Ensemble appearing Sunday Sept 6 in what we're calling either: a) An Austin Improvisational Showcase b) Austin's Jazz Underground Anyways, it should be a fun and inexpensive time, I certainly invite interested parties to contact me for more details. later all, Tom (am I the only person who thinks Bloodcount could make a really great 'Fall into the Gap' commercial?) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: David Krakauer in Dallas Date: 26 Aug 1998 13:12:27 -0700 On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:48:12 -0500 (CDT) Tom Benton wrote: > > And it's funny that David Krakauer's name didn't pop into my head during > the clarinet player thread some weeks ago...I haven't heard him play too > much in non-klez contexts but I suspect he sounds great wherever..I've > never heard anyone with mastery of so many little nuances of the horn, all > sorts of strange little sounds coming from the nooks and crannies of his > instrument. There is a haunting duo (piano + clarinet) on the TANGO LESSON soundtrack. The piece is so good that Sally Potter uses it (at least) three times in the movie (when the trend is to have a CD of music which is never used :-). And yes, control is really what this piece is all about. Slow progression with bended notes. Like being toasted on a high-wire. You (the listener) fear that he is gonna fall, but he does not. Awesome... I am not 100% sure, but I think it is David Krakauer. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 26 Aug 1998 16:09:40 -0500 Herb wrote: >I'm interested in Brian's characterization of Stone, Wall & Oswald here. >In my mind, Wall is the outsider of the three, rather than Oswald. >If by the above you mean that Stone & Wall are similar in that their main >interest is to create new compositions out of sounds from others as opposed >to presenting a new look at an older composition by manipulating its >components (I realize this characterization of "Oswald and others" is >exaggerated & reductive) then I think I understand your point. That's more or less what I meant. It seemed relatively clear (this was after just one listen to the Wall--I still haven't gotten back around to it) that he was less concerned with the "detritus" value or nostalgic associations one might have with the sampled material (as in, say, 'Plexure') then with constructing something entirely new that couldn't have been arrived at any other way (or could it? re: your remark below). I think I mentioned (if not, I will now) that the ultimate outputs are quite different; nothing in Wall's album sounds remotely like 'Ching Kee'. >But one of the things that makes the output of the two so different is that >Stone works very idiomatically within the traditions of elecronic music, >while Wall seems almost to be making a kind of acoustic instrumental music >using sampling technology to create pieces that could be played by live >musicians, if the right musicians came together. >For the most part Wall's work could be transcribed in music notation and >handed out to musicians who had wareness of contemporary performance >practice. He rarely, if ever, uses the sampler or other processing devices >to significantly alter the timbre of an instrumental sound. Yep, you're right there. I still find that, in my mind, I tend to put Oswald in one "camp" and Stone and Wall in another, but that latter camp certainly has its share of differences. But maybe this is all over-hair splitting again, anyway. All of these folk are well worth listening to and enjoying and I suppose that's good enough! By the way (free plug here, Herb) any readers who've cared to read this far and haven't yet checked out Herb's show, should immediately do so at: www.antennaradio.com Best Real Audio on the Net. Brian Olewnick - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Hewins Subject: Re: Cohen on film and on disc Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:51:42 -0500 At 3:18 PM -0400 8/26/98, Bob Kowalski wrote: >Greg Cohen's new album (on DIW) is called "Way Out" and I highly ^^^^^^^^^ "Way Low" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Best Place to buy out of print Laswell/Zorn Date: 26 Aug 1998 20:17:22 EDT try Downtown Music Gallery, dmg@panix.com.. Tell mike DJSteve sent ya. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Re: Cohen on film and on disc Date: 26 Aug 1998 21:39:20 -0400 >At 3:18 PM -0400 8/26/98, Bob Kowalski wrote: >>Greg Cohen's new album (on DIW) is called "Way Out" and I highly > ^^^^^^^^^ > "Way Low" Actually, this one has been out for a couple of years, although DIW's new distribution deal with Koch has certainly made it more readily available. There is a much more recent one, however, called "Moment to Moment" with Teddy Edwards on tenor sax, Gerry Wiggins on piano, and Donald Bailey on drums. This one has something of a late 1950s "west coast jazz" sound (not surprising considering the line-up), not unlike Charlie Haden's Quartet West. I enjoy both records immensely, but those on this list might want to be aware that they reflect Cohen's love of more traditional and mainstream jazz, more than anything "avant." Ashley - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Francisco Fonz-Garcés" Subject: Re: Recent Goodies Date: 27 Aug 1998 13:25:51 +0200 hulinare@bemberg.com.ar wrote: > New cds, old cds, always music. > > The Lounge Lizards Queen of all Ears Strange And Beautiful Music > > Very beautiful music, and not strange at all. A friend of mine said this > was the best album of the ... next year!. > If you don't have this one... I don´t > , go get it. Highly recommended Where could I get full references about this album? Thanks a lot Paco Fonz (still enjoying "Live in Berlin") - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Recent Goodies Date: 27 Aug 1998 08:33:16 -0700 On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:25:51 +0200 "Francisco Fonz-Garcés" wrote: > > Where could I get full references about this album? *** - QUEEN OF ALL EARS: The Lounge Lizards 1/ The First And Royal Queen (Lurie) 3:59 2/ The Birds Near Her House (Lurie) 11:40 3/ Scary Children (Lurie) 4:07 4/ She Drove Me Mad (Lurie) 4:21 5/ Queen Of All Ears (Lurie) 5:25 6/ Monsters Over Bangkok (Lurie) 10:13 7/ Three Crowns Of Wood (Lurie) 4:01 8/ John Zorn's S&M Circus (Lurie) 6:13 9/ Yak (Lurie) 5:41 10/ Queen Reprise (Lurie) 3:46 Recorded at Powerstation Produced by John Lurie and Pat Dillett John Lurie: alto, soprano, vocals; Michael Blake: tenor, bass clarinet; Steven Bernstein: trumpet; David Tronzo: slide guitar; Evan Lurie: piano, organ; Jane Scarpantoni: cello; Erik Sanko: bass; Ben Perowsky: percussion; Calvin Weston: drums. 1996 - Warner Brothers Records (Germany), 9362-46147-2 (CD) 1998 - Strange & Beautiful Music (USA), SB 0015 (CD) Note: the WB pressing was planned for release on May 28, 1996 on Luaka Bop but it never happened; some promo copies (issued by Warner Brothers in Germany) are flying around... Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar Subject: DIW/Avant Date: 27 Aug 1998 15:40:23 -0300 Is there any place where to check out old and new DIW and Avant releases? Thanks for the light, Hugo - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Hewins Subject: JMT Discs Date: 27 Aug 1998 17:02:09 -0500 Can anyone post a list of all the JMT Discs that were available? I am curious to know what to keep an eye out for. Thanks, Dan - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JazzmanDOL@aol.com Subject: Spring Jazz Festival Date: 27 Aug 1998 19:31:44 EDT My name is Dave Lundin - I am trying to put together an April 17, 1999, jazz festival in Detroit, Michigan featuring the kind of "cutting edge" jazz heard at the Tonic Club in New York. My issue is that I have some names of good artists (Ravi Coltrane, Myra Melford, Joe Lovano, etc.) but could use more names and mostly need to know how to get hold of these artists either in person or through their agents. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks!! Dave Lundin - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lang Thompson Subject: Slusser & Halloween H2O Date: 27 Aug 1998 22:00:30 -0400 I noticed that one of the music editors on "Halloween H2O" is David Slusser. Is this the same guy that has an album out on Tzadik? (& I don't know how much creative input an editor has but the music and sound mix are easily the most interesting things in the film.) LT Lang Thompson http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4 New at the Funhouse website: Alternate 100 American Films, Anthology of American Folk Music, Godzilla Bites! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: Slusser & Halloween H2O Date: 27 Aug 1998 22:41:46 -0400 At 10:00 PM 8/27/98 -0400, Lang Thompson wrote: >I noticed that one of the music editors on "Halloween H2O" is David >Slusser. Is this the same guy that has an album out on Tzadik? (& I don't >know how much creative input an editor has but the music and sound mix are >easily the most interesting things in the film.) While I am not familiar with this movie, Slusser has done a great deal of work in sound effects and film. Some of his radio work is included (with the NPR logo left in) on the Tzadik album. A search on his name at imdb comes up with seven other movies in which he was part of the sound design crew or musician, including Terminator 2. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: X-Legged Sally's "Slow-Up" Date: 27 Aug 1998 20:28:48 PDT Hello all, I'm under the impression that this album is not that easy to find anymore. If that's the case, I seem to be able to get some copies from our distributor at work (actually I have one promised to someone, and one not) and have some on order. I'd be happy to get them for people (first come first serve) at cost + $1.50 postage. Let me know if anyone is interested, or if I'm mistaken as to how hard it is to find. Peace, Dave Lori Carson and Bill Laswell Discographies at : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TWHY666@aol.com Subject: off subject possible rec label? Date: 28 Aug 1998 00:30:48 EDT hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label possible? i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it out, and quoit cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother artist... any info would be great! thanks, chad - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJOERN Subject: Re: Slusser & Halloween H2O Date: 28 Aug 1998 13:21:27 +0200 (MEST) yes he is...thats his "main" job... he also did editing for terminator 2 and indiana jones 3 plus several other stuff.. i think he was also involved in doing the new star wars edition BJOERN www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Lang Thompson wrote: > I noticed that one of the music editors on "Halloween H2O" is David > Slusser. Is this the same guy that has an album out on Tzadik? (& I don't > know how much creative input an editor has but the music and sound mix are > easily the most interesting things in the film.) > > LT > ------------------------------------------------------ > Lang Thompson > http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4 > > New at the Funhouse website: Alternate 100 American > Films, Anthology of American Folk Music, Godzilla Bites! > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: demery@natlab.research.philips.com Subject: Re: Percy Grainger? Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:24:16 +0200 Steve Smith wrote: > Subject: Re: Percy Grainger? > > Those who are curious should try to find "The Warriors," a really > interesting tone poem with some downright Ivesian pantonal stuff in it. I'd go along with Steve's recommendation. The Warriors should also appeal to those who like Stravinsky. An excellent recording of it can be found on: Gustav Holst - The Planets/Percy Grainger - The Warriors Cond.: John Eliot Gardiner; Orch.: Philharmonia Deutsche Grammophon 445 860-2 This version has a second conductor for the off-stage brass ensemble, though the CD booklet indicates that 3 conductors are needed -- though give no details as to why (or why this version only has 2!!)! The Warriors was Grainger's longest composition, apparently. The version on the above mentioned disc runs approximately 18.5 minutes. Dem - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Herb Levy Subject: Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies Date: 28 Aug 1998 09:50:17 -0800 Probably someone who's not on digest (& who didn't screw up their return address, sorry Mike) has already noted that Wall talks about several instances of digital manipulation in his Resonance interview, which I just read this morning on the way to work, so my comments along the lines quoted are somewhat inaccurate. &, yeah, this is mostly quibbling about how to characterize 3 consistently interesting composers. & thanks Brian for plugging Antenna Radio. I wrote & Brian Olewnick responded: >>For the most part Wall's work could be transcribed in music notation and >>handed out to musicians who had wareness of contemporary performance >>practice. He rarely, if ever, uses the sampler or other processing devices >>to significantly alter the timbre of an instrumental sound. > > Yep, you're right there. I still find that, in my mind, I tend to put >Oswald in one "camp" and Stone and Wall in another, but that latter camp >certainly has its share of differences. But maybe this is all over-hair >splitting again, anyway. All of these folk are well worth listening to and >enjoying and I suppose that's good enough! Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: off subject possible rec label? Date: 28 Aug 1998 12:09:55 -0700 At 12:30 AM 8/28/98 -0400, TWHY666@aol.com wrote: >hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label possible? >i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it out, and quoit >cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother artist... any info would be >great! I don't have a lot of info but I do know (and own) a double CD collection called "Sonics Everywhere" which is a collection of all the 12" that Possible put out. The comp was actually released by Invisible. It has tracks from PCM, Scorn, SIMM, Jupiter Crew, Ambush, Quoit, and Interceptor. The address for Possible Possible Records Unit 28 Birmingham Business Centre 31 Mount Street Nechells, Birmingham B7 SRD UK mike mhowes@best.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Kuehn Subject: Yo Henry! Yo Wadada! Date: 28 Aug 1998 09:48:53 +0000 Yo Patrice! Bought 4 copies of the 2-CD set from the label Shanachie (on the phone they said it like "shana-key"), list was $12.99 but they give one free when you buy three - anyways it came out to less than 11.50 each after shipping.... And they even shipped a week before release date - soon as they had'em... so cool Shanachie: http://www.shanachie.com Henry Kaiser's Page: http://php.indiana.edu/~mpiper/HKMain.html what's more, Henry hisself responded to a note from me posted on his forum page - wow - he sez: |||||||||||||||||| Dear Smokey-san, We forced Shanachie to price it low so people could afford it. We make no money from something like this anyone. (record companies rarely pay you beyond your original advance - though Shanachie is the most honest and best that I have worked with) But we wanted you all to be able to get as much music for as few bucks as possible. I have an advance of the 4 CD BITCHES BREW box - October release on SONY. It's pretty good. They rem-mixed it all from the origianl session (Aug '69) and then there is more material from sessions that followed thru Feb 6, 1970. about 1/3 of the material is unreleased. It's nice - but nothing earth shattering. Any electric Miles fan will dig it. There are other tributes to this period before the Splatter recording. A Japanese trumpet player named HINO even made a CD with Miles' band at the time in '74! Dave Liebman did some stuff a few years back too. I don't think anyoine has seriously decoded and attacked the compositions form that period as we have done. My old version of ROCK ON on HOPE YOU LIKE OUR NEW DIRECTION was also a tribute to this period of Miles and we recorded that back in 1990. On the SIAMESE STEPBROTHERS we did the AGHARTA PRELUDE also. HK ||||||||||||||||||||| There are more notes from HK on his forum page - go and look! Lemme say the four copies are all in heavy rotation here, now if I could just find that Terumasa Hino CD.... SmokeyDan - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "brazen stupidity" Subject: Re: off subject possible rec label? Date: 28 Aug 1998 14:55:32 -0400 >hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label possible? >i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it out, and quoit >cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother artist... any info would be Invisible records released a double cd of all (I think) of the Possible 12"s. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: Slusser & Halloween H2O Date: 28 Aug 1998 16:33:06 -0400 More than likely, this is the same person who put out the CD out on Tzadik. He's a long and fruitful track record with working in films, including credits with Coppola, Lynch and Lucas. Here's what I pulled off of IMDB (great site) though I know it's not complete (doesn't include the Halloween credit for one thing). 1.Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) (assistant sound designer) ... aka T2 (1991) (USA: promotional abbreviation) ... aka T2 - Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) 2.Five Heartbeats, The (1991) (music editor) 3.Cold Dog Soup (1990) (music editor) 4.Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989) (foley recordist) 5.Always (1989) (foley recordist) 6.Kamillions (1989) (musician) 7.Cocoon: The Return (1988) (assistant music editor) As it so happens, we're going to post an interview with Slusser in a few days- we'll have the details for the Zorn list when it's online (sorry for the crass promo). Jason -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: zorn in san francisco Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:27:58 -0700 Just in case you SF Bay Area folks were interested -- picked up the newspaper today and saw Zorn was coming. Two dates: Sept. 15-16 at Slim's in SF. (Tickets are on sale now.) Later, Ben np: ornette coleman, "first take" http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/ ICQ# 12832406 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Julian" Subject: tzadik site Date: 29 Aug 1998 11:27:15 +1000 Just thought I'd let you all know that the site has been (very scantily) updated. Included in October releases now are David Krakauer, Sephardic Tinge and a trio featuring Fred Frith, Bill Laswell and Charles Hayward. No new sound clips, but hey, Tzadik albums speak for themselves don't they? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: Re: off subject possible rec label? Date: 28 Aug 1998 20:53:43 PDT >>hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label >>possible? i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it >>out, and quoit cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother >>artist... any info would be >Invisible records released a double cd of all (I think) of the >Possible 12"s. From what I know, Possible Recs. as an autonomous label was fairly short-lived, having only released 6 or so 12", and two CDs (SIMM and Quoit - both amazing, IMHO) before Mick Harris had to stop because of the financial strain. He had worked out a deal with Invisible Records at some point, and they issued a double CD (Sonics Everywhere) which contained all the tracks off the 12". They were also supposed to be re-issuing the SIMM album at some point, along with a new SIMM album and some other CDs. From what I gather from the Dub Terrorist site, Mick Harris isn't happy about much right now, and that might still include Invisible Records, so who knows what'll happen. Dave Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Mick Harris Date: 29 Aug 1998 16:38:56 EDT In a message dated 98-08-29 00:20:15 EDT, you write: << He had worked out a deal with Invisible Records at some point, and they issued a double CD (Sonics Everywhere) which contained all the tracks off the 12". >> If someone could clarify this I'd appreciate it - are these all Mick Harris projects, or a bunch of different people? If they're all his, I think I'd like to track this down!!! Thanks. Dale. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wilson, King of Prussia" Subject: Zorn's Touring Habits/Chicago Date: 29 Aug 1998 17:58:05 -0600 Question to you people in the know...... Why is it that Zorn seems to be so phobic about playing in Chicago? I see new dates pop up on the list all the time about shows in L.A, San Fran, and New York, but he hasn't played here in about 4 years. I think his last shows were a couple of nights with Masada. I am hard pressed to think of any of my favorite musicians (and I have many, in much different genres) of play consistanty here in the states, and skip Chicago. In fact, most make a point to play here before they announce dates anywhere else (Kraftwerk and Bauhaus being the most recent examples) This is made all the more perplexing by the recent press attention the Improv/Noise scene here has been getting. Maybe this is why he wont come....... and get that guy Laswell over here, too..... read icculus - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William York Subject: Need Sludgy Metal Recommendations Date: 30 Aug 1998 00:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Lately I have been listening a lot to Blind Idiot God _Cyclotron, Elliot Sharp _Tocsin_, and something from Zeni Geva that someone taped for me. Anyway the connection between these 3 is sort of on the surface at best, I know, but if anyone could recommend some stuff in this vein I'd appreciate it. Vocal or instrumental. WY - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: numbat@vianet.net.au (Sibree/Wilkes) Subject: LP Auction Date: 30 Aug 1998 17:08:28 +0800 A reminder that my latest list of mostly free jazz/avant garde lps is available on rec.music.marketplace.vinyl, or email me for details. Billy - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: Mick Harris Date: 30 Aug 1998 13:47:54 -0700 ><< He had worked out a deal with Invisible Records > at some point, and they issued a double CD (Sonics Everywhere) which > contained all the tracks off the 12". >> > >If someone could clarify this I'd appreciate it - are these all Mick Harris >projects, or a bunch of different people? If they're all his, I think I'd like >to track this down!!! The liner notes are thin but it implies that these "bands" are the following artists. PCM = PCM Scorn = Mick Harris (duh!) SIMM = SIMM Jupiter Crew = James Plotkin Ambush = Glen Eswall Quoit = Mick Harris Interceptor = Eraldo Bernocchi mike mhowes@best.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Mills Subject: Afro-cuban recos Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:46:07 -0700 I'll be visiting Miami next month and I am hoping to score some excellent CDs. Where's a good place to start with afro-cuban music, a la Perez Prado? Thanks G - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Mills Subject: RE: zorn in boulder Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:51:27 -0700 Zorn played in Boulder a couple of times while I was living in a socially retarded area in Colorado (Colorado Springs). I unfortunately missed both times. I think the place he plays is the called the Rose Theater, but I may be mistaken. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: for John Oswald complete list Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:55:25 -0700 John Oswald has a killer remix (with frantic drumming) on the following record (remixes of Pizzicato Five): *** - REMIX ALBUM: HAPPY END OF YOU: Pizzicato Five 1/ Love's Theme (Automator mix) 4:11 2/ Trailer Music (808 State remix) 5:11 3/ The Earth Goes Around (Daddy-O half mix) 3:43 4/ Porno 3003 (DJ Dara remix) 5:52 5/ Porno 3003 (Gusgus mix) 6:35 6/ My Baby Portable Player Sound (High Llamas remix) 6:10 7/ Happy Ending (Oval mix) 5:19 8/ It's A Beautiful Day (John Oswald mix) 4:40 9/ Love's There (Saint Etienne mix) 4:49 10/ Trailer Music (Momus mix) 3:05 11/ Collision And Improvisation (The Shooter remix) 6:39 12/ Contact (Dimitri From Paris mix) 7:23 1998 - Matador (USA), ole 282-2 (CD) A fairly enjoyable record. Patrice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Kevin Drumm, David Slusser, Iancu Dumitrescu interviews Date: 31 Aug 1998 21:09:58 -0400 Greetings, In the September edition of Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine , you'll find (among other things): KEVIN DRUMM INTERVIEW New levels of guitaristics http://www.furious.com/perfect/kevindrumm.html IANCU DUMITRESCU INTERVIEW Tim Hodgkinson interviews this fascinating Romanian composer (reprint from Resonance magazine) http://www.furious.com/perfect/iancu.html DAVID SLUSSER INTERVIEW First Coppola, Lynch and Lucas and now the world http://www.furious.com/perfect/slusser.html r Dealer? Buying your equipment from someone you can trust We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any writing, ideas for upcoming issues. See you online, Jason Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect -